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post #3001 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 07:45 AM
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Hi Amir,

Since I am a proud owner of a Toshiba XE1, may I congratulate you and all the HD DVD team in general, for the exceptional image and sound that can be obtained today with this media.

Even though, here in France (Europe) and for the present, we are discovering what judder is, through the actual fixed output in 60Hz...

Anyway, the next firmware upgrade, planned as far as rumor says it, for realease during next Fall, should bring us the long awaited p24 output possibility, thus the cinema like image we all wanted and pushed for... for the Future.

So even if you are not directly concerned, I'm sure you know who to forward this matter to, though my question:

this cinema like p24 image begs for a full 2.35 format screen + projection... and in my case it will be done through an anamorphic lens. So would it be possible to study and release in a next firmware upgrade of the Toshiba XE1 (XA2?) the inclusion for a sort of "Image Vertical Strech" control in the 3 available "picture" memories?

I'm sure many people would be quite happy with this kind of thing.

Many thanks in advance,

Hugo
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post #3002 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

A question for the HD DVD insiders:

The order for The Matrix Ultimate collection is online on Amazon.com:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824584

But it appears that some of the extra content is on the DVD side of the discs and the Animatrix on extra DVD discs, as reported here.

Question is: are those DVD contents region free? Because Amazon reports otherwise (region 1 encoding). And I live in a region 2.

Isn't HD DVD supposed to be region free?

HD DVD is region free, but not any DVD going with it. I assume however, that most people who are worried about region coding on DVD, already have a method to bypass it.

Now, note that just because something is SD in an HD DVD package, it does not mean that it is a "DVD." If the data is formatted as HD DVD, then it will be region free just the same.

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post #3003 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

That is unfortunate. It is one of the main reasons that they are now dealing with "the breach".

Sorry, I don't quite follow. I don't think it is reasonable to tell a studio that anyone can rent a BD/HD DVD disc, then make a permanent copy of it and then return the disc to the store. Do consumers really have the expectation of buying a digital copy of an HD disc for 10% of the retail price when they rent it?

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The other, IMO, is the HDCP which makes about as much sense and not allowing analog SD upconversion. Eventually, rentals will be directly onto my TiVo or HTPC. Until then, I suppose people will rely on the breach.

Thanks,

- Rich

Analog upconversion of SD DVDs is governed by an entirely different organization. Indeed, you can upscale SD content on HD DVD/BD discs without this restriction because of this governance difference! Put another way, AACS is actually more relaxed in this way than CSS rules are today. Another example is how HD DVD is region free, but DVD is not.

Note that what I described regarding rental, is the mandatory provisions of such a feature. The discs are allowed to make managed copy in other circumstances. To the extent there is a market which consumers create in paying a reasonable fee for making digital copies of rental discs, the studios could easily allow it as all the technical measures are there just the same. We just didn't want to force that to be the default case when the economics are hard to justify for the content owners.

As an example, let's say you were willing to pay 50% of the retail fee for that digital copy. Some studios many think that is not such a bad deal and provide a managed copy. Others though, may think they are losing an entire sale so they may still offer the copy, but charge you 100% of the retail fee. Others may make the copy free if it makes sense to them (e.g. a training/promotion HD DVD). Net, net, what AACS is trying to do is established unified rights in cases where we can establish is good for consumers and good for content owners. When one or the other gets hard, we wind up letting go.

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post #3004 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

I expect they will (as will the PC-based players). By all indications the PS3 is fully capable of supporting BD-Live requirements. But there are risks in being the only player supporting the new profile; there's a much higher level of confidence all around if there are several players (or at least prototypes) which allow the studios to author content making use of the new profile and provide feedback regarding any bugs or inconsistencies.

Talk,

I think what I've bolded above is the key piece of information that I was missing. That really clears it up and makes sense. Can you tell I'm not an engineer and I'm in a "paper" business?

So basically, the PS3 could do it, but the BDA companies and studios want to make sure everything works on a variety of players, including those to be releases in the coming months. This also jives with what kjack posted elsewhere that people are working 24/7 on this and what paidgeek posted elsewhere as well. It's all clear to me now.

Thanks. Big help. We're "str8t" now. I got it.
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post #3005 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Razter View Post

Talkstr8t: Can you clear up everything around seamless branching? Some say that HD DVD can´t do it and some say it does, I know you don´t work with HD DVD, but I guess you can give some answers to what BD can do better in this area?

Instead of asking a BD insider HD DVD questions unrelated to his area of expertise, it might be best to search for answer given from the people who create HD DVDs for a living . In this case, our old friend from Warner had this to say: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7919140

"Simple answer, yes HD-DVD does. Unsure about BD, but it'd be bad if it didn't. The big requirements for branching are a low enough mux rate at the point of the branch. With Polar Express, for example, there were several points in the film where scenes showing text (i.e. the tickets, "devoid of life", etc.) were replaced depending on the audio language chosen. These were branches. The laser must be able to jump from the end of one buffer state to the beginning of a whole new buffer state with room in the buffer to accommodate both and seamlessly play 2 different GOPs. Without advanced tools to ensure the functionality and spec compliance, this would be EXTREMLY difficult to pull off. However, those tools are coming to fruition and as soon as they do, you'll see some branching.

Cjplay. "

They key thing to note here (and in any discussion of "bandwidth") is that we have a memory buffer which can handle instantaneous peaks well above what the optical media can handle. That provides fair amount of relief (and is partly responsible for erroneous reading in bitrate meters you see in some products). But yes, overall, in both formats, you have to be conscious of not playing the equiv. of two movies playing at the same time at random points in the movie. You would want to plan your branch point carefully. Fortunately, there is a lot of flexibility here as we are not talking about a case where in any frame of video, you would want to branch. Instead, that is a creative technique that can be planned to work right in either format.

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post #3006 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Sorry, I don't quite follow. I don't think it is reasonable to tell a studio that anyone can rent a BD/HD DVD disc, then make a permanent copy of it and then return the disc to the store. Do consumers really have the expectation of buying a digital copy of an HD disc for 10% of the retail price when they rent it?

Of course, they have it now. HD Audio formats closed loopholes, how did that work of for them?

I have do desire to keep a permanent copy nor do I desire to burn it, upload it, or give it to anyone. I just do not always get to it in the time frame I thought. So I wish to keep it until it is convenient for me to watch. I do not want to buy them since I do not tend to watch most movies again and shelf space is at a premium.

My point is there is a desire to pay "a" price for the rental in a convienient way. Using Breach technology, users can acheive their goals with the lesser format. I think other feel like me that the studios are not taking the market place seriously in this regards. The primary reason for the "breach" market is to avoid the limitations of HDCP (which is also rediculous but that is another story) and to place content on media services. Were those provided for in a reasonable way, there would not be such a large market for the breach. I assume that was the original purpose of the MMC technology.

You see that don't you?

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post #3007 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

HD DVD is region free, but not any DVD going with it.
Now, note that just because something is SD in an HD DVD package, it does not mean that it is a "DVD." If the data is formatted as HD DVD, then it will be region free just the same.

Thanks for the answer, but can you be more specific? Will the DVD sides and extra dvd discs on the Matrix Ultimate package be region free or not? More importantly, will the Animatrix dvd be region free?

Quote:
I assume however, that most people who are worried about region coding on DVD, already have a method to bypass it.

The Xbox 360 is region locked, and I use it to upscale my DVDs. So, it's a problem.
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post #3008 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post

Hi Amir,

Since I am a proud owner of a Toshiba XE1, may I congratulate you and all the HD DVD team in general, for the exceptional image and sound that can be obtained today with this media.

Hello Hugo. Thanks for the kind words.

Quote:
Even though, here in France (Europe) and for the present, we are discovering what judder is, through the actual fixed output in 60Hz...

Anyway, the next firmware upgrade, planned as far as rumor says it, for realease during next Fall, should bring us the long awaited p24 output possibility, thus the cinema like image we all wanted and pushed for... for the Future.

So even if you are not directly concerned, I'm sure you know who to forward this matter to, though my question:

this cinema like p24 image begs for a full 2.35 format screen + projection... and in my case it will be done through an anamorphic lens. So would it be possible to study and release in a next firmware upgrade of the Toshiba XE1 (XA2?) the inclusion for a sort of "Image Vertical Strech" control in the 3 available "picture" memories?

I'm sure many people would be quite happy with this kind of thing.

Many thanks in advance,

Hugo

I will pass on the feedback although I suspect the best hope for such features, is from companies who cater to high-end market. Mass market companies tend to be slow to recognize the need for such features.

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post #3009 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

Thanks for the answer, but can you be more specific? Will the DVD sides and extra dvd discs on the Matrix Ultimate package be region free or not? More importantly, will the Animatrix dvd be region free?

I can't yet as I don't know the details of what is on each disc. My guess though is that Animatrix will be part of the HD DVD offer and if so, then it is subject to AACS rules.

Quote:
The Xbox 360 is region locked, and I use it to upscale my DVDs. So, it's a problem.

Ah, that would be an issue. But 50 Euros for another player would solve that, no? Just kidding . I appreciate the issue but really, there is nothing we can do since DVD-CCA manages those rules.

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post #3010 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Sorry, I don't quite follow. I don't think it is reasonable to tell a studio that anyone can rent a BD/HD DVD disc, then make a permanent copy of it and then return the disc to the store. Do consumers really have the expectation of buying a digital copy of an HD disc for 10% of the retail price when they rent it?

Who said anything about 10%? That's your number!

Studios could offer managed copy from rental discs for e.g. 10$ per copy (maybe 15$ for new movies). IMHO that would be a great first step on the way to payed HD movie downloads.

What do you think? Wouldn't that be a nice optional income source for studios? Think about it: We could rent movies we don't know. If there's a movie which we like very much, we could do a managed copy for a price which is attractive for both consumers and studios. No long download times for consumers. No expensive server farms for studios. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.
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post #3011 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

This question is for HD DVD insiders. I believe I read something where Talkstr8t said that the Space Invaders type game on the "Chicken Little" disc couldn't be done with HDi. Seems like a big enough deal that I would like to see the HD DVD side refute that if they disagree (or stay quiet and let it stand if they don't want to confirm it). So:

Could Disney have done the Space Invaders type game for "Chicken Little" as an extra on an HD DVD release of that movie, if they were releasing on HD DVD?

Thanks,
Darin

Handling this kind of game is not an issue for HDi. Indeed, one of our program managers wrote a prototype space invader game in just two hours (he wrote it last night and sent me a copy when I asked him if he knew something I didn't about Bill's claim.). HDi is great at bitmap blitting, alpha blending, cell animation, bitmap sequence animation, property animation and ECMAScript can handle the state machine and collision detection. No, there are no 3-D primitives but those are not needed in such games, nor is there hardware for them in either platform.

People forget that HDi is not just a browser. It is designed to handle real-time (1080p) graphics as you need the same thing for menus and other UI features of interactivity.

More importantly, we have a very consistent de-facto peformance metric we use for implementations of HDi. We have a minimum peformance floor which makes it easier to write and deploy HDi applications. Without it, you have to have a lot more logic to adapt to different implementations which makes the development job harder. And of course per above, application development is much, much faster in HDi.

Finally, note that we designed HDi with Disney. We used their prototypes, and implemented them fully in HDi before they decided to sign on. And despite being in BD camp, Disney has been part of the entire process and contributed significantly to creation of HD DVD interactivity in DVD Forum. So of all studios, I know for sure they are happy with what HDi can do for them. And mandatory features of HDi are the things they wanted, but did not get in BD format. So all in all, they would be the wrong example to use here to make a counter point .

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post #3012 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Who said anything about 10%? That's your number!

Studios could offer managed copy from rental discs for e.g. 10$ per copy (maybe 15$ for new movies). IMHO that would be a great first step on the way to payed HD movie downloads.

I thought I covered these scenarios in my post when I talked about different percentages you could pay.

Quote:


What do you think? Wouldn't that be a nice optional income source for studios? Think about it: We could rent movies we don't know. If there's a movie which we like very much, we could do a managed copy for a price which is attractive for both consumers and studios. No long download times for consumers. No expensive server farms for studios. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Well, you are talking to a person who created the entire concept of managed copy in AACS. So I am not the one to sell. Instead, you all have to make your case to studios. They have some concerns which have been difficult to get over. Maybe Paid can expand on it.

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post #3013 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rover2002 View Post

Hi Amirm,
Could you shed some light on why HD-DVD has not launched in Hong Kong/Korea/Taiwan, ect?
Is it due to movie distribution rights or something completely different? Hopefully its time for one of your long replys as i would love to hear the reasons behind it.
Thx
Will.

Hi Amirm,
Enything on the above?
Ta.
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post #3014 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I thought I covered these scenarios in my post when I talked about different percentages you could pay.

Heh, you're right! I missed that part of your comment. Sorry for the confusion!

So, paidgeek, do you have any comments on the rental managed copy topic? Basically what I'm looking for is an easy way to get HD movies to my network storage. I don't need/want to have any discs in my shelfs, anymore. Of course I'd love to have the cost savings (no discs, no distributors/shops) passed on to me. Does Sony already have specific plans for consumers like me?

Thank you!
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post #3015 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover2002 View Post

Hi Amirm,
Enything on the above?
Ta.

Sorry . Nothing specific other than size of the market. For studios, if they have to creat new discs for that region, there is significant cost in matering and authoring. As the market grows, more regions will get the product of course.

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post #3016 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 11:22 AM
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Amir,

Will the "The Fifth Element" HD DVD, one can see on the http://www.thisishddvd.com/ website (from the bottom left corner it is two rows up and one to the right), be a new VC1 encoding? Is it a european Fox/Pathe release?

Format neutral! (prefering HD DVD which is build on quality while blu-ray is build on marketing)
CETERUM CENSEO BLU-RAYEM ESSE DELENDAM!
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post #3017 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Caurus View Post

Amir,

Will the "The Fifth Element" HD DVD, one can see on the http://www.thisishddvd.com/ website (from the bottom left corner it is three rows up and one to the right), be a new VC1 encoding? Is it a european Fox/Pathe release?

Yes, it is the Europe release. And yes, it is a new VC-1 encode. I have not seen it but have been told it is better than the MPEG-2 BD version.

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post #3018 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 11:47 AM
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Any news on the Warner Brothers front with regard to Dolby TrueHD on Blu-ray?

We're all waiting. Lots of discussion over at AVS.

Also, as Paidgeek is discovering, audiohiles do not want forced-data-recalculation for lossless codecs (making bit-for-bit output impossible). Will Warner and others stop applying dialog normalization to their lossless Dolby TrueHD tracks?

Also, when will they move to 20 and 24 bit resolution?

These are things we take for granted right now with Disney and Fox lossless titles on BD. It would be nice if WB would provide the same support for bit-for-bit high-resolution lossless on their HD DVD and BD titles. Any news on progress?

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #3019 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by PacificDisc View Post

Here are our prices for BD (& HD) replication

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.html

But, From ProactionMedia,the BD SL is cheaper than HD DVD DL, and all cheaper than yours price, why?

http://www.proactionmedia.com/blu-ray_replication.htm

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_dvd_replication.htm
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post #3020 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

audiohiles do not want forced-data-recalculation for lossless codecs (making bit-for-bit output impossible). Will Warner and others stop applying dialog normalization to their lossless Dolby TrueHD tracks?

Also, when will they move to 20 and 24 bit resolution?

These are things we take for granted right now with Disney and Fox lossless titles on BD. It would be nice if WB would provide the same support for bit-for-bit high-resolution lossless on their HD DVD and BD titles. Any news on progress?

Would an insider confirm that the studios provide audiophile quality movie sound where this would make any difference? Or would it be done just for the sake of doing it?
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post #3021 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

ICT is a flag that could be set on disc, to force the player to display the content at quarter of 1080p resolution (about 30% better than DVD) on analog output.

Due to mass revolt against it from members here and others, studios decided to not use it in either format.

My memory is a bit hazy on this so Richard would have to correct me but I recall the 2012 date being the time after which, you cannot build a player with analog output (i.e. analog "sunset"). It is unrelated to ICT I believe.

Minor clarifications:

If ICT is enabled on a title, it must be clearly labled as such.

There is never a time where enabled ICT becomes mandatory, but to confuse the issue in certain countries studios are not allowed to enable it until after a certain date (2010 I think). The USA is not a country with such a restriction, unfortunately

There is also, as Amir mentions, a seperate sunset on the manufacture of devices with analog outputs. You cannot make a device that outputs AACS protected content on HD analog outputs after 2010, nor one that outputs to any analog output (including SD) after 2012.

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post #3022 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Studios could offer managed copy from rental discs for e.g. 10$ per copy (maybe 15$ for new movies). IMHO that would be a great first step on the way to payed HD movie downloads.

What do you think? Wouldn't that be a nice optional income source for studios? Think about it: We could rent movies we don't know. If there's a movie which we like very much, we could do a managed copy for a price which is attractive for both consumers and studios. No long download times for consumers. No expensive server farms for studios. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

The system will certainly support these scenarios, and I believe they will all be enabled. But due to a number of details about the distribution business models it may prove impossible to make the scenario mandatory.

Also, please remember the negotiations are still underway, so specifics are still not fully baked.

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post #3023 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneL View Post

Would an insider confirm that the studios provide audiophile quality movie sound where this would make any difference? Or would it be done just for the sake of doing it?

Good question . With the market dead for high-resolution music where quality matters more than movies to people, you can safely assume that this would be done 90% for marketing and 10% for any real reasons. In a mass market, no movie will sell better because it has 20, 24 or 100 bits of resolution.

I have done extensive tests of 16-bits vs 24-bits on well recorded music. And while I can tell and appreciate the nicer analog quality of 24-bit on my expensive audio system ($15K just for a headphone setup!), I would never be able to convince anyone else around me of the difference and hence, value. It has taken years of audio testing to know what to look for ("quantization noise"). Yet I have also lost my share of double-blind tests in identifying 20-bit signals against 16-bits.

And lest you think people genuinely care about the stuff when setting standards, one of the most contentious votes in DVD Forum was the vote to make DTS-HD-MA/DD TrueHD mandatory in HD DVD. So many companies complained about the extra royalties that I was sure it would not pass. Had it not been because of Disney/Warner getting ready to blow a fuse over it, we would not have lossless audio in either format, let alone high resolution version of it. And oh yeah, BD companies were vocal on this issue too in DVD Forum and they didn't adopt better audio specs until after DVD Forum did so for HD DVD (i.e. put pressure on them to match). After all, the original BD recorders just handled plain old DD coming off air and nothing more.

For those of you who think you can hear the difference above 16-bits, did you know that by just running the video output of your DVD player you stomp on at least 4 bits of resolution? And by leaving the high voltage circuit driving the VL front-panel display, you are destroying more bits, getting your effective resolution to be less than 16-bits (usually down to 12 to 14-bits!). Now you see why it costs so much to experience high-res audio. Preserving those lower bits is very, very hard to do.

This reminds me of the story I always tell when matters of high-resolution audio come up. I was helping the codec team fine tune the WMA encoder years ago. At one point, I insisted that they had regressed in quality when they sent me blind samples to test. The team disagreed but I kept fighting them. To prove their point, they went ahead and gave me two identical files (without telling me) but called them different names. And you know what, I kept thinking the version I liked before still sounded better! Even after they told me the files were identical, I still thought the other version sounded better. Imagine my shock and horror when I did a bit-for-bit comparison, proving they were indeed identical. Armed with this fact, I listened again to both files and by magic, they sounded identical all of a sudden. I haven't told this part of the story before but to figure out why this happened, I tried convincing myself that the other version now sounded better. What is amazing is that despite knowing the files were identical, and that this was a thought exercise, I actually thought the other version sound better! (smoother, etc.). This is the incredible power of suggestion and that we don't always hear what we think we hear.

So I can convince myself to fall sleep on the airplane and proceed to do exactly so . And this may explain why that above exercise worked for me. But you might have the same ability. Make a copy of one of your music files on your computer and then genuinely try to convince yourself one is better. Then listen to the files. I bet you will be able to hear a difference.

So yes, we will deliver high res audio to you because we know we can market it to you. But among friends, let's not get confused about what the real motivation is...

Finally, please note that that I understand other motivations regarding having higher resolution audio. The "give me what is on the master" comes to mind. And of course, there are those who really can hear the difference (on music, though I am not sure if they would on movies). But to your question, none of this is sufficient motivator to create discs this way.

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post #3024 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 01:22 PM
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Amir,

Disney and Fox are already providing 24 bit lossless as a matter of routine. Apparently, they feel there is a "sufficient motivator" to produce discs this way.

If there's space on the disc, there should be a lossless track, and it should be of the highest resolution possible given the bandwidth available and the source PCM master.

I have yet to hear an argument for *not* providing lossless/high-resolution. Telling me that I can't tell the difference isn't a reason *not* to provide it. The consumer telling the studio that they want it is all that is required. If it costs no more to provide lossless, then why not???

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #3025 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

For those of you who think you can hear the difference above 16-bits, did you know that by just running the video output of your DVD player you stomp on at least 4 bits of resolution? And by leaving the high voltage circuit driving the VL front-panel display, you are destroying more bits, getting your effective resolution to be less than 16-bits (usually down to 12 to 14-bits!).

Amir,

Thanks for all the great information you share with us.

Would you please expland on the front panel display part? Should we turn it off when we play movies? Will that improve audio?

Rich
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post #3026 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 02:55 PM
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dear amirm,

Hi ,great work on the xbox 360 hd dvd player i completly love it and im running it in 1080p over vga and the quality is better than that of my hd-a1, my only gripe is sometimes my projector doesnt sunc the image correctly and part of the movie gets cut off is there any way to fix this problem or is there going to be some sort of hdmi solution because my projector syncs properly over hdmi.
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post #3027 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

For those of you who think you can hear the difference above 16-bits, did you know that by just running the video output of your DVD player you stomp on at least 4 bits of resolution? And by leaving the high voltage circuit driving the VL front-panel display, you are destroying more bits, getting your effective resolution to be less than 16-bits (usually down to 12 to 14-bits!). Now you see why it costs so much to experience high-res audio. Preserving those lower bits is very, very hard to do.

OK, I'll risk looking like the fool and admit I'm lost. I presume you're talking noise being introduced into analog audio outputs due to various noise sources in the player?

If the audio stays in the digital domain (optical/coax of DD/DTS on DVD, or HDMI for HD audio on HD DVD/BD) there are no onboard losses, are there?

Gary


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post #3028 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 03:31 PM
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This Managec Copy thing seems soo-vaporware. I for one dont ever expect to see it offered by any content owner at a price less than the pice of the physical disc, nor do I expect it to be consumer friendly and will be loaded with tons of DRM-probably more so that either HD DVD/BD. I bet you wont be able to copy the disc to your existing PC/NAS but will be forced to buy new dedicated hardware to store the content, and your existing DMA/player wont be able to playback the content-no youll be forced to buy more hardware.

So-When will we actually see it in the market and what specific requirements are there today for storage and playback?

I have several 2TB Infrants and 2 Toshiba A2's as well as 2 Tvix 5000's and several PC's.

amirm-Will I be able to copy the discs to my existing Infrants and playback the discs with full interactive features using my HD-A2's? Forget the business model/costs. Is this storage/playback functionality currently mandatory. And where can I readup on the specifications for Managed Copy to understand better what is marketing fluff and what is really offered for consumers?

Thank You.
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post #3029 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich4av View Post

Amir,

Thanks for all the great information you share with us.

My pleasure

Quote:


Would you please expland on the front panel display part? Should we turn it off when we play movies? Will that improve audio?

If you are using analog output, yes you want to turn it off. If you are using PCM over HDMI, then it might improve a bit there too (in this case, see if you can turn off the display in your receiver). If you are using Coax/Toslink optical, then it should not make a difference as this is a compressed data stream.

The reason is that the display has a high-voltage power supply that drives it (in most technologies anyway). That power supply causes fair amount of spike on the supply voltage, in addition to generating RF noise which can leak into audio circuits. The spikes impact the accuracy of the reference circuits in digital to analog converters. And for PCM output, can cause clock variations which translate into jitter. The jitter reduces the effective resolution of the signal as seen by the receiver/AVR.

To give you a sense of why there is interference, on a 16-bit system, a single bit fluctuation represents 0.00002 votes. As a way of reference, a AA battery puts out 1.4 volts. In a 24-bit system, a single bit is 0.00000008 volts. Slightest amount of power supply spike can easily equal many bits of accuracy. This is in a consumer system. In professional equipment we use higher voltages so they don't suffer as much but we are still talking about very small numbers here.

The video circuits have the same damaging effect. Unfortunately, you can shut them off when watching a movie (hence the reason I am not as much of a purist when it comes to video versus music). But if you are just listening to a CD, then go ahead turn the video circuits off. Again, look for this in the AVR manual if you have a digital path to it.

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post #3030 of 4841 Old 03-25-2007, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

OK, I'll risk looking like the fool and admit I'm lost. I presume you're talking noise being introduced into analog audio outputs due to various noise sources in the player?

If the audio stays in the digital domain (optical/coax of DD/DTS on DVD, or HDMI for HD audio on HD DVD/BD) there are no onboard losses, are there?

Gary

Ah, it is easy to get lost as we are talking about very esoteric concepts here. But yes, digital can also be impacted although the effect here is not as predictable or as large. The noise/variations in power supply can cause digital circuits to lose accuracy with each spike in the power supply. In technical terms, you are modulating the signal with the noise from the display. This in turn, causes the receiver to extract a different signal at the receiver, effectively reducing resolution. How bad this is, is harder to predict compared to analog output which gets impacted much more directly. I think Arcam published a paper, lamenting the poor jitter performance of audio over HDMI.

Unfortunately, having digital output from the player only serves to shift the problem to AVC/Processor/Receiver and not really eliminate it. As those devices have displays and video processing, you have the same issue there. To make matters worse, the problem is additive. If the player adds a bit of jitter and then sends that to the receiver, and the receiver butchers it some more with its display/video induced error, you have more problems than if you just output the audio from the player directly into an analog amp.

One solution to above is to buy top of the line equipment. I am talking about buying stuff that cost as much as a car . Often, the big value add in these products comes from better and more isolated circuits and references circuits which are much more immune to noise. Along these lines, the class of equipment we have today for both BD/HD DVD, doesn't fall into this category. When likes of Meridian coming to play, then we can talk high quality. Until then, even there is extra quality on disc, it is probably not quite heard. But turning extra things you don't need like displays, is free and should make some difference.

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