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post #4801 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MBL View Post

Hi Amirm
From which HD device do you enjoy your own movies? I am on the thinking of moving from the add on to a stand alone solution.

As you can imagine, I have a lot of them . I use the XA-2 in my main theater. A2 gets used in the family room (both of these drive Sony displays but one will be retired soon in favor of JVC). And XA-1 has been moved to the vacation home (OK, so I watch movies there -- so shoot me ).

The Xbox gets used by my teenage sons in their rooms. They play movies and games on it there.


Quote:
Secondly could MS think of releasing a "true" elite add on for the xbox360, which could support all audio formats (maby by analoges). I love the interface and interaction with friend list and messenger through the dash, while seeing movies, but dislikes my NO-abiity to take fully advantage for next gen sound.

Me too .

Quote:
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Regards
Martin Lynge

My pleasure. Thanks for the feedback.

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post #4802 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faux123 View Post

Amirm,

Thank you very much providing inside info for HD DVD. Your contribution to this forum is just awesome.

My pleasure!

Quote:
I have just experimented with uncompressed PCM 2.0 down mixed from 5.1 LPCM source on PS3 feeding my Panny receiver via toslink. All I can say is that the fidelity of 2.0 uncompressed PCM sounds MUCH MUCH better than the lossy DD/DTS 5.1 tracks. With PLIIx processing I still get great surround sound effects but now with high fidelity.

The question is: Can Xbox 360 provide uncompressed down mixed PCM 2.0 output from Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA tracks as another toslink output option (First decode Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD MA to 5.1 LCPM internally then down mix it to 2.0 LPCM internally then output as 2.0 PCM) ?

It certainly can. Just select PCM stereo and you have uncompressed output, even on S/PDIF and Toslink.

Quote:
After my PS3's experiment, I have been convinced that even 2.0 PCM uncompressed sound processed by PLIIx logic sounds MUCH better than ANY lossy DD/DTS 5.1 output.

Thanks

You are basically trading full accuracy of surround info for the last bit of quality. So I am not surprised that some people would prefer one over the other.

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post #4803 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 11:21 AM
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Amir, great news that the HD DVD hardware will output 2.0 PCM if "PCM" is selected in the setup when playing a lossless TrueHD stream.

Quote:


I have just experimented with uncompressed PCM 2.0 down mixed from 5.1 LPCM source on PS3 feeding my Panny receiver via toslink. All I can say is that the fidelity of 2.0 uncompressed PCM sounds MUCH MUCH better than the lossy DD/DTS 5.1 tracks. With PLIIx processing I still get great surround sound effects but now with high fidelity.

The question is: Can Xbox 360 provide uncompressed down mixed PCM 2.0 output from Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA tracks as another toslink output option (First decode Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD MA to 5.1 LCPM internally then down mix it to 2.0 LPCM internally then output as 2.0 PCM) ?

After my PS3's experiment, I have been convinced that even 2.0 PCM uncompressed sound processed by PLIIx logic sounds MUCH better than ANY lossy DD/DTS 5.1 output.

I concur.

In fact, in my Blu-ray Disc reviews of Chicago, The Queen, and Open Season at dvdfile.com I've stated this in the audio portion of each review. For those without HDMI or multi-channel analog input, it's a great way to get lossless audio quality NOW, simply sacrificing 5.1 discrete in favor of DPL II. I'm continually amazed how directional the surround panning is with Dolby PL 2 and continually amazed how much BETTER it sounds running lossless in 2.0 mode to my receiver than choosing *any* 5.1 Lossy track.

Naturally, 5.1 lossless in native form would be better still. But having to choose lossless in 2.0 (ProLogic II) mode over 5.1 lossy, 2.0 lossless wins every ear-test so far.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #4804 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 12:13 PM
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Question for PaidGeek : Is Jumanji in work for Blu-Ray? i remember this was one of the first DVD release from Columbia. It's one of my fav kid action/fantasy movie of the 90's

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #4805 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Industry Insiders Xbox and PS3 Q&A thread: : Xbox and PS3 ONLY

Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions

Thanks

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post #4806 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 02:14 PM
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"Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions"


So do questions about the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on or HD-DVD playback through the 360 go here or there?
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post #4807 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Industry Insiders Xbox and PS3 Q&A thread: : Xbox and PS3 ONLY

Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions

Thanks

Thank you, thank you, thank you. OK, sorry, not a question. But I had to say it.

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post #4808 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

"Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions"


So do questions about the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on or HD-DVD playback through the 360 go here or there?



questions about Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on and related playback issues go in the new thread please


edited title of the new thread

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post #4809 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Hopefully I didn't confuse you with the extra explanation .

Thanks for the clarity.

I am contemplating purchasing the Toshiba HD-A20 when I am in California next month (that special is too good to pass up) but I can't find any mention of the included power supply specs on any website.

Do you know if the power supply is multi-voltage (110v-220v)?

I appreciate your help to date.
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post #4810 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wickedbob View Post

Thanks for the clarity.

I am contemplating purchasing the Toshiba HD-A20 when I am in California next month (that special is too good to pass up) but I can't find any mention of the included power supply specs on any website.

Do you know if the power supply is multi-voltage (110v-220v)?

I appreciate your help to date.

I am at our vacation home right now without access to A2 so can't look it up. Perhaps someone else can look in the back of the unit. XA1 unfortunately is 120v only.

Silly thing about this is that most switching power supplies can handle 220v. But it is more costly and difficult to get UL insurance on it so they opt to only certify it for 120v. So in many instances, the supply will work fine with higher voltages. Of course, if it does not, it will be the fastest you would be spending $300 . So better go with a transformer as the power consumption is pretty low....

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post #4811 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 08:50 PM
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Question for AACS insiders,

I am wrong to think that AACS has been a total and utter failure and a complete embarrasment to those involved with it's development.

Reading ars technica

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...e-release.html

paints a fairly comical picture.

We were lead to believe that revocation would keep things under control. That does not appear to be reality.

Are studios angry that AACS appeared easier to crack than CCS?

Or do the AACSers still maintain that everything is under control, what is the true story deep in the bowels of the Hollywood studios?

Dennis.
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post #4812 of 4841 Old 05-18-2007, 09:29 PM
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Amir, can you comment on this report of the HD-DVD group releasing 800 additional titles this year. The numbers seem to be exaggerated, especially the title counts for NOV and DEC.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849308
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post #4813 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 07:38 AM
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Will Universal (or others) delay any of the planned title releases because of the untimely new AACS compromise?

- Tom

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post #4814 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 08:33 AM
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Perhaps this is a dumb question, but here it goes:

With constant tweaking to Video Encoding, is this mainly for more Efficiency with better results? Such as before a movie that was encoded at 15MBps VC-1 might now only take 12MBps to produce the same results of quality?

Also then would any of this translate into better compression of audio codecs? Or is lossless compression of audio (TrueHD) not able to be done more efficiently (assuming they keep the same encoding bit rate).

Thanks
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post #4815 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 08:48 AM
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Any reason why on HD DVD, extras are still MPEG2 and not H.264/VC-1?

I note that the four hour standard definition documentary on The Frighteners HD DVD is still MPEG2 and uses up 7.6 GiB worth of space.

Are Blu-ray titles using VC-1/H.264 for extras?
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post #4816 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

Any reason why on HD DVD, extras are still MPEG2 and not H.264/VC-1?

I can only speculate it is because the studio already has the content in that form from the DVD, and dont want to re-encode it.

However picture-in-picture content, even when originally on the DVD as old-fashioned Extras, is always re-encoded (in VC1 or, in rarer cases, H.264). I've never seen PIP in MPEG2.

HD DVD Veteran
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post #4817 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalsaber View Post

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but here it goes:

With constant tweaking to Video Encoding, is this mainly for more Efficiency with better results? Such as before a movie that was encoded at 15MBps VC-1 might now only take 12MBps to produce the same results of quality?

It could. Except that for now, the studios are not interested in leaving discs half empty so they use the old rate, and take advantage of the improvements in the form of less hand optimizations. And potential micro-quality (quality improvements at the frame level which you might not see).


Quote:


Also then would any of this translate into better compression of audio codecs? Or is lossless compression of audio (TrueHD) not able to be done more efficiently (assuming they keep the same encoding bit rate).

Thanks

Without knowing the MLP/THD algorithm in detail, I would say that it is unlikely that lossless compression itself gets better wrt to average rates as there are no subjective decisions being made in the codec.

We do hope that they get better wrt to how they use peak rate though. THD has regular peaks that go to maximum rate irrespective of the content being fed to it (i.e. even silence would have these regular peaks). This is done to allow seeking into the audio (i.e. for synchronization). But there are other ways to do this. And at any rate, neither WMA Pro or it seems, DTS lossless suffer from the same issue. Without this fix, TrueHD has a benefit in size, but not bandwidth. In reality, it should have that benefit in both domains as does VC-1 for video for example.

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post #4818 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 09:53 AM
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One more addition to my previous post. One way we can gain more average rate efficiency out of TrueHD is to use its little known feature which is to encode at any bit boundary. Unlike PCM, one can dial in 18, 19,21, 22 or whatever bit depth you want. There are analysis programs which can tell you the real resolution of source material. One can use the output of that tool, to best encode each channel and not allocate one extra bit beyond the real resolution of source material. By doing this, one can gain significant efficiency over PCM beyond where we are today.

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post #4819 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlb99 View Post

Question for AACS insiders,

I am wrong to think that AACS has been a total and utter failure and a complete embarrasment to those involved with it's development.

Reading ars technica

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...e-release.html

paints a fairly comical picture.

We were lead to believe that revocation would keep things under control. That does not appear to be reality.

Are studios angry that AACS appeared easier to crack than CCS?

Or do the AACSers still maintain that everything is under control, what is the true story deep in the bowels of the Hollywood studios?

Dennis.

Working on AACS is not exactly a fun job during this particular period of time. So if by comical picture and complete embarrassment, you mean my current choice in career, well...

Just to clarify, the original attack was on certain software players that proved to be vulnerable, and did not and does not represent a widespread break in the AACS ecosystem. You have seen a revocation cycle occur which has required upgrades to certain software players to make them more robust to known styles of attack. The AACS system was designed to deal with these sorts of attacks, and remains intact as a technology. This is in contrast to CSS, which is vulnerable to direct, brute-force attacks.

The analogy we sometimes give is: if you lock your house, but leave the keys lying on the street, then there's really nothing wrong with the locks or with the concept of locks in general. If you don't find the keys, you can change the locks if you like.

We do not have much information yet on the newly reported attack, and are actively investigating.

To your other questions, I think it's fair to say that studios who have their content stripped of the protection are understandably unhappy. At the same time there seems to be no change in the universal use of AACS on next-gen titles.

Richard E. Doherty
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post #4820 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 04:24 PM
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Amir,

Are you aware if Denon will have wma pro in their new line up in this fall? I have just seen few pictures of those amps, but no info about wma pro

Thank you.
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post #4821 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Without knowing the MLP/THD algorithm in detail, I would say that it is unlikely that lossless compression itself gets better wrt to average rates as there are no subjective decisions being made in the codec.

We do hope that they get better wrt to how they use peak rate though. THD has regular peaks that go to maximum rate irrespective of the content being fed to it (i.e. even silence would have these regular peaks). This is done to allow seeking into the audio (i.e. for synchronization). But there are other ways to do this. And at any rate, neither WMA Pro or it seems, DTS lossless suffer from the same issue. Without this fix, TrueHD has a benefit in size, but not bandwidth. In reality, it should have that benefit in both domains as does VC-1 for video for example.

Just to clarify, in normal use, these regular peaks (frame headers) never reach the maximum bitrate of the format (18 Mbps) nor the maximum bitrate of the PCM source. The overall file is encoded VBR, and the encoder uses its FIFO method the flatten the worst case peaks to a set level for the whole file. This is roughly 1.7 Mbps below the PCM bitrate. Once that maximim bitrate is defined, the restart peaks will not exceed it. So TrueHD does provide benefits in both bandwidth usage (bitrate reduction) as well as file size.

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post #4822 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDoherty View Post

Working on AACS is not exactly a fun job during this particular period of time. So if by comical picture and complete embarrassment, you mean my current choice in career, well...

Just to clarify, the original attack was on certain software players that proved to be vulnerable, and did not and does not represent a widespread break in the AACS ecosystem. You have seen a revocation cycle occur which has required upgrades to certain software players to make them more robust to known styles of attack. The AACS system was designed to deal with these sorts of attacks, and remains intact as a technology. This is in contrast to CSS, which is vulnerable to direct, brute-force attacks.

The analogy we sometimes give is: if you lock your house, but leave the keys lying on the street, then there's really nothing wrong with the locks or with the concept of locks in general. If you don't find the keys, you can change the locks if you like.

We do not have much information yet on the newly reported attack, and are actively investigating.

To your other questions, I think it's fair to say that studios who have their content stripped of the protection are understandably unhappy. At the same time there seems to be no change in the universal use of AACS on next-gen titles.

Thank you Richard for responding, and for responding honestly. Much appreciated.

My tone was a little strong, that was a little unintended. No slight was intended.

Question, is the true solution to never offer PC based solutions?

SACD not cracked (that I am aware of), no PC solutions exist.
CSS cracked, AACS (somewhat problematic at the moment), PC solutions exist.

The PC has been where both CSS and AACS have been compromised.

If no PC replay/drives existed it would seem to be very difficult to home-brew a crack.

I am being too simplistic?

Dennis.
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post #4823 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

One more addition to my previous post. One way we can gain more average rate efficiency out of TrueHD is to use its little known feature which is to encode at any bit boundary. Unlike PCM, one can dial in 18, 19,21, 22 or whatever bit depth you want. There are analysis programs which can tell you the real resolution of source material. One can use the output of that tool, to best encode each channel and not allocate one extra bit beyond the real resolution of source material. By doing this, one can gain significant efficiency over PCM beyond where we are today.

Indeed! This is particularly valuable with "24 bit" sources that actually carry something like 12- or 14-bit audio, and lots of noise. Some of the old analog masters used to make DVD-A discs were like that.

In addition, one can use common sense in deciding which resolutions are most efficient for each stage in the content chain. Plenty of threads have covered this--the idea that a studio console and recorder needs 24 bits or more in order to preserve sufficient margin for gain changes, EQ, and all the other processing involved, without raising the noise floor of the content to audible levels. One could say the same of DSP processing in players or AVRs, where the bass management, room EQ, tone, surround processing, mixing, etc are all being performed. Hence, 24-bit DSPs are the norm. The lossless connective link betwen these two processing domains, however, does not need to exceed about 18 bits in order to avoid limiting the dynamic range for humans. Rounding up to be generous, we'd say 20 bits is more than sufficient. With the downstream AVR post-processing the 20-bit lossless audio in its 24-bit domain, it is fully able to maintain the 20-bit performance, hence the quality is unimpaired.

Using lossless coding at 20 bits compared to 24 saves 1 Mbps in bitrate (average and peak), which translates to about 1 GB of disc space, and that's all well worth having.

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post #4824 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 06:53 PM
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Roger Dressler,

This might not be your table.. Are companies still working with DVD Audio titles or will they shift for releasing titles on HD DVD and using Dolby TrueHD (as I understand Dolby TrueHD is like DVD Audio?) on those disc?

I really enjoy those DVD Audio titles I have and want more.
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post #4825 of 4841 Old 05-19-2007, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDoherty View Post

I think it's fair to say that studios who have their content stripped of the protection are understandably unhappy. At the same time there seems to be no change in the universal use of AACS on next-gen titles.


Richard,

Last time AACS was circumvented, there were rumors of complaints from some
studios, not to mention consumers, about the time it took to repair the damage.

If you can answer, is there anything in place to speed up the repairs this time
so that we don't have a repeat of Unversal and Studio Canal sitting on the
sideline for months?

Thanks for your participation in this thread and I understand if this cannot be
answered at this time.

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post #4826 of 4841 Old 05-20-2007, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultradk View Post

Roger Dressler,

This might not be your table.. Are companies still working with DVD Audio titles or will they shift for releasing titles on HD DVD and using Dolby TrueHD (as I understand Dolby TrueHD is like DVD Audio?) on those disc?

I really enjoy those DVD Audio titles I have and want more.

Good question, but I really have no good information to share about that.

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post #4827 of 4841 Old 05-20-2007, 05:33 AM
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Amir,

You say you have a XA-2 player in your setup, do you also own a Blu-Ray player. Just curious...
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post #4828 of 4841 Old 05-20-2007, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahl77 View Post

Amir,

You say you have a XA-2 player in your setup, do you also own a Blu-Ray player. Just curious...

Yes, more than I can count . I have the Sony, Samsung (first gen), Panasonic and PS3. Each one acts differently on different material so we wind up having multiple units to get a better picture of what the competition is doing.

I should note that I can't bring myself to actually watch any full-length BD titles on them. The main use they get is comparison testing and that's all. Yes, it is crazy. I should be able to enjoy the movies on them. But... doing so reminds me of work too much . One look at the blue cases and I can't bring myself to actually want to watch the movie and keep thinking of this format competition.

Even crazier.... When I am airplanes (which is a lot), I will watch any movies from BD studios on crappy LCD screens even though I have most if not all BD titles. It is only HD DVD movies which I reserve for watching when I get home.

Now, I will make an exception for two movies: The Fifth Element if Don's shop does a great job of cleaning up that title and does justice the second time around. And Spiderman. But as I type this, that would be hard too . But maybe I hide the case under the couch and take the disc out with my eyes closed .

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
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post #4829 of 4841 Old 05-20-2007, 11:29 AM
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Are there any plans by Universal to release the extended King Kong (2005) edition, perhaps even with TrueHD this year?
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post #4830 of 4841 Old 05-20-2007, 03:52 PM
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It could. Except that for now, the studios are not interested in leaving discs half empty so they use the old rate, and take advantage of the improvements in the form of less hand optimizations. And potential micro-quality (quality improvements at the frame level which you might not see).

I should have stated where I was going with this, but if more efficiency is reached, would this mean movies like Lord of the Ring Extended Editions each fit on one disc and be able to have 7.1 channels of TrueHD? I would not want to see any PQ loss as a resuls.

If not, would this be where the potential 34GB or 51GB discs be the end solution?
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