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post #91 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 01:49 PM
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bkilian,

Are you aware of the proposed/rumored profiles for HD-DVD? If true, is it related to reducing HDi performance or increasing it from current specs? Is this about new class of players or is it about classifying the players within the current specs? Any info outside of the NDA is appreciated.

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post #92 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 02:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

That's called "security by obscurity" and it never works.
Paidgeek mentioned that unless the security affected playback, we shouldn't care about it. Unfortunately, a lot of home theater owners nowadays copy their movies up to a centralized server so they (a) don't have to worry about scratching their discs, and (b) can pick the movie they want to watch from a list (see Kaleidescape ). Will BD+ affect their ability to do this? We know that AACS theoretically allows a copy, but what about BD+?

please enlighten me, why such obscurity would never work? and this is an honest question from an average person.

If the hackers are using any measure to break into system, why couldn't the protectors go to any distance to protect the content, including not advertising their defense mechanism.
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post #93 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 02:20 PM
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Quote:


Unfortunately, a lot of home theater owners nowadays copy their movies up to a centralized server so they (a) don't have to worry about scratching their discs, and (b) can pick the movie they want to watch from a list (see Kaleidescape ).

Um. A "lot"? Maybe in 5-10 years. But a great majority do not.

Paidgeek: BD+ is one extra measure, what about BD-ROM Mark?

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post #94 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Post Questions [only questions] directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such

Industry Insiders only may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well

any AVS member can post questions [only questions please] for Insiders- but we will not tolerate any bashing

AVS recognizes the special nature of Industry Insiders and values their participation: we ask all AVS members to treat them with respect

Remember: Questions only: no off topic posts: they may be removed: and only Insiders [who have been recognized by AVS moderators] may answer

Insiders: please PM Ken H and myself with your credentials: mods and only mods will make the determination of who qualifys as an insider and all such discussions will be done off line: not to be discussed here

This is a continuation of the original thread Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please which did not end well: any more of this and we will take strong action: Insiders are to be treated with respect:

This should be a flagship thread on AVS, and we will not allow any trouble






let's strive to keep this thread just Q/A as there are plenty of other places to debate a topic
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post #95 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

May I ask what you find "scary"?

In short? The fact that it's essentially a Java VM with no known restrictions.

Quote:


BD+ only operates within the bounds of the player whether it is a hardware or software player.

Based on this:
http://securityevaluators.com/eval/spdc_aacs_2005.pdf

There are a few scary things:
Quote:


Discovery returns various information about the device, including details of attached components (e.g., devices connected to the digital output ports).

Quote:


An additional trap (TRAP_DiscoveryRAM) provides content code with access to specific areas of player RAM external to the VM memory area.

Quote:


In addition to Discovery, the Interface provides content code with a variety of routines that code may use to control the underlying device. This includes (but is not limited to) traps that initiate media reads; establish Internet connectivity; run native code; perform decryption with device or title keys; and generate device-signatures.

Just seems to open way to many Windows into the device. Call it a blunder or malicious, but the XCP fiasco has shown how little regard the content industry has toward the integrity of their customers devices, it's shown how far they will go to "protect" their content.

Quote:


It is basically just a set ot tools that allow the content companies to run more intelligent and updateable tests and operations to make sure content is played on valid players.

And Java could be called a set of tools to allow people to make useful programs, but it can do all sorts of terrible things too.

Quote:


BD-J allows software companies to run all sorts of programs as well, but the types used for BD+ are naturally designed for protection of content.

And it's specifically because they are designed for content protection, that they can (apparently) access the underlying device (what happens if I update my video drivers to a version after the disc is released?), to control the underlying device (I don't want the security system on a disc running my PC), to run arbitrary native code (with native code, all bets are really off).

It seems BD+ could easilly be used to do something XCP like (if not worse), so my question is, what is BD+ allowed to do? Are there restrictions on what it's allowed to do?

And since we've gone down the whole DRM/CP path, to insiders on any side, what do you think of Microsoft's The Darknet and the Future of Content Distribution paper, the talk given to Microsoft's Research Group about DRM, and the idea that DRM is inherently flawed because it gives the end user everything necessary (the key, the cypher, and cyphertext) to decode the content?

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post #96 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 03:08 PM
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Amir,

I'd assume a software update if/when the hole is found and patch will be presented to all HD DVD players will fix the exploit(one of the good things about having mandatory ethernet connections)? You can clearly "force" the update by authoring future content in a way it does a proper version check. Ofcourse, this would also provide you with automatic protection on current titles that could be exploited.
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post #97 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post


Can you please indicate if AACS is broken, that would be a good thing for BD format? And I am asking a business question here, not a technical one.


What information do you have that would indicate BD+ code, should it exist and be running in the same software player, is immune to similar attack?

I do not think that having AACS hacked is a good thing for BD.

BD+ is dynamic whereas, for all practical purposes, AACS is static. With BD+, it should be possible to at least make it inconvenient to illegally copy content if/now that, AACS has been hacked. The virtue is clearly that we don't have to figure out every possible counter move to BD+ in advance, the implementers can modify their use of BD+ as often as required to get to an acceptable level of nuisance to keep copying from becoming common practice.

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post #98 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

That's called "security by obscurity" and it never works.
Paidgeek mentioned that unless the security affected playback, we shouldn't care about it. Unfortunately, a lot of home theater owners nowadays copy their movies up to a centralized server so they (a) don't have to worry about scratching their discs, and (b) can pick the movie they want to watch from a list (see Kaleidescape ). Will BD+ affect their ability to do this? We know that AACS theoretically allows a copy, but what about BD+?

BD+ is not intended to interfere with approved managed copy functionality, when it is eventually finalized...

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post #99 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post

Glad to hear you say these comments as I think it cuts across the spin that this harms only HD DVD. Its bad all around, but yes, if for some reason, AACS isn't able to overcome this (if even true) hurdle then it will be worse for HD DVD.

How soon do you estimate it would take for BD+ to be implemented to your products?

Will this delay any title releases as studios (particularly Sony) hold off in favor of gathering more information and preparing for stronger counter-measures?

I'm not sure how long it will take us to start using BD+. We have not given this much thought, but it will likely be up for discussion when everyone is back from the holidays.

I doubt that the lack of BD+ on our titles at this moment will affect our release schedule in any way.

We have added necessary functionality into the Blu-print authoring tools to support BD+ and these have been tested. This is at least one obstacle out of the way.

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post #100 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

Um. A "lot"? Maybe in 5-10 years. But a great majority do not.

Paidgeek: BD+ is one extra measure, what about BD-ROM Mark?

BD-ROM mark is part of BD security used with AACS. It exists to help avoid mass piracy from illegal replicators.

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post #101 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

In short? The fact that it's essentially a Java VM with no known restrictions.



Based on this:
http://securityevaluators.com/eval/spdc_aacs_2005.pdf

There are a few scary things:




Just seems to open way to many Windows into the device. Call it a blunder or malicious, but the XCP fiasco has shown how little regard the content industry has toward the integrity of their customers devices, it's shown how far they will go to "protect" their content.



And Java could be called a set of tools to allow people to make useful programs, but it can do all sorts of terrible things too.



And it's specifically because they are designed for content protection, that they can (apparently) access the underlying device (what happens if I update my video drivers to a version after the disc is released?), to control the underlying device (I don't want the security system on a disc running my PC), to run arbitrary native code (with native code, all bets are really off).

It seems BD+ could easilly be used to do something XCP like (if not worse), so my question is, what is BD+ allowed to do? Are there restrictions on what it's allowed to do?

And since we've gone down the whole DRM/CP path, to insiders on any side, what do you think of Microsoft's The Darknet and the Future of Content Distribution paper, the talk given to Microsoft's Research Group about DRM, and the idea that DRM is inherently flawed because it gives the end user everything necessary (the key, the cypher, and cyphertext) to decode the content?

We have seen that failed implementations of security that inconvenience the legitimate consumer have serious consequences for the content provider. Do you really think that even if it was possible, bad BD+ code would not have far worse consequences for the company who distributed it than for the consumer?

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #102 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 07:31 PM
 
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Question for Amir: If a user connects a BD or HD-DVD drive to a Windows Vista PC, and plays an AACS protected movie (which does not have the Image Constraint Token set), will the PC allow 1080p output over the VGA port? Assume the PC is using all properly licensed hardware and software.

I'm wondering if ICT is the only parameter that matters in this case.
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post #103 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Zuber View Post

Question for Amir: If a user connects a BD or HD-DVD drive to a Windows Vista PC, and plays an AACS protected movie (which does not have the Image Constraint Token set), will the PC allow 1080p output over the VGA port? Assume the PC is using all properly licensed hardware and software.

I'm wondering if ICT is the only parameter that matters in this case.

There is no dependency here on Vista as the operating system makes no policy decision on its own. It is totally up to the application running on it, to make that determination.

But answering your question in general, PCs fall in the category of computing devices and as such, can utilize 1080p over VGA. This would be the same on XP and Vista. And yes, ICT would be the only constraint here.

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post #104 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

We have seen that failed implementations of security that inconvenience the legitimate consumer have serious consequences for the content provider. Do you really think that even if it was possible, bad BD+ code would not have far worse consequences for the company who distributed it than for the consumer?

Here are some questions about BD+.

I had posted these questions about BD+ in a PC environment some months back. I've asked several related questions about BD+ over the past year or so - and have not got any definitive replys. Can you answer them ?

Quote:
BD+ means there is a little program in the disc which runs when I play the movie from the disc. It is a different program on every disc (possibly). We don't know what it can do. We don't know what all it can read from the PC. We don't know whether it can collect some info and send it over the net. We don't know whether it will declare my HTPC hacked ... and send that info over internet. I don't want to cross my fingers and pray everytime I put a new disc in my HTPC.

BD+ has an inherent problem. For it to be trsuted we need to know its limits :

1. Whether it can write anything into my PC. Hopefully not.

2. What can it read from my PC ?

3. Can it send info over internet. Hopefully not.

The problem is, if the limits are well defined and available to public - hackers will get some info on how to defeat BD+.

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post #105 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 09:23 PM
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Oh and one more question regarding BD+.

4. You say it's not being used on BDs at the moment. When it is, will those BDs on which BD+ is used, be marked as such?

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post #106 of 4841 Old 12-28-2006, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

BD+ is not intended to interfere with approved managed copy functionality, when it is eventually finalized...


Is the fix up table fuction of BD+ happening during the decoding in realtime or before the decoding? If the fix process has to be done in realtime, how could it not interfere with managed copy? Thanks.

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post #107 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Is the fix up table fuction of BD+ happening during the decoding in realtime or before the decoding? If the fix process has to be done in realtime, how could it not interfere with managed copy? Thanks.

I would imagine that it would be implementation dependent. We just happen to do the BD+ processing in real-time on our security CPU, before the A/V decoding.

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post #108 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 01:09 AM
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Amir, why isn´t it possible, to play back WMV9HD, in the HD-DVD players sold now.??

Isn´t it just a small FW update, or.??
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post #109 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Post Questions [only questions] directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such in their sig : subject to AVS approval

Industry Insiders only may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well

any AVS member can post questions [only questions please] for Insiders- but we will not tolerate any bashing

AVS recognizes the special nature of Industry Insiders and values their participation: we ask all AVS members to treat them with respect

Remember: Questions only: no off topic posts: they may be removed: and only Insiders [who have been recognized by AVS moderators] may answer


Insiders: please PM Ken H and myself with your credentials: mods and only mods will make the determination of who qualifys as an insider and all such discussions will be done off line: not to be discussed here

This is a continuation of the original thread Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please which did not end well: any more of this and we will take strong action: Insiders are to be treated with respect:

Please help us make this a flagship thread on AVS by observing these rules




Insiders: reminder that you need to check in with Ken H and myself before you post as an insider: once confirmed, you wil be asked to add it to your sig

Thanks and Happy New Year
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post #110 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDeff View Post

Amir, why isn´t it possible, to play back WMV9HD, in the HD-DVD players sold now.??

Isn´t it just a small FW update, or.??

Yes, it requires extra software as only the video codec is compatible with HD DVD decoder. Also, getting the DRM functionality working there is non-trivial as unfortunately, a few discs used internet activation, making them difficult to play.

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post #111 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 09:27 AM
 
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If the AACS LA decides to revoke a key for some reason, is there a requirement (or at least an expectation) that the revocation be announced publicly, including details of affected hardware and software?
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post #112 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Zuber View Post

If the AACS LA decides to revoke a key for some reason, is there a requirement (or at least an expectation) that the revocation be announced publicly, including details of affected hardware and software?

I don't think public flogging is one of the terms in AACS agreement . But I could be wrong.

The process involved notifying the equipment/software maker, telling them what is wrong, and giving them sufficient notice to right the situation. I would imagine that they would then inform their customers of the remedy, and such data then becomes public fairly easily.

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post #113 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDeff View Post

Amir, why isn´t it possible, to play back WMV9HD, in the HD-DVD players sold now.??

Isn´t it just a small FW update, or.??

WMVHD is an almost entirely different format, with the only real overlap being VC-1 support (Main Profile in WMVHD, Advanced Profile in HD DVD).

But the file system, muxing, interactivity, DRM, file wrapper, audio codecs etcetera are very different. The hardware in a HD DVD player is capable of decoding everything, but it would need a whole new software layer to do it all.

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post #114 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 10:16 AM
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Amir or benwaggoner,

A couple of weeks ago people complained about how DD+ tracks sounded when played on the 360 add-on. Some just thought the volume was lower and others said it sounded like some sort of dynamic range compression was taking place. You (amir) said in a post that your team was investigating these reports and it was then assumed by a lot of posters in the HD DVD player forum that a fix will be included in the update that will add DTS output. Maybe I have missed a post with all the details, not hard to do here especially during the holidays, so I wonder if either one of you could clarify:

Did you confirm that there is a problem with DD+ audio tracks on the 360 add-on?

If you did, will it be fixed by the update that adds DTS output?

Thanks,
Patrik
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post #115 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Is the fix up table fuction of BD+ happening during the decoding in realtime or before the decoding? If the fix process has to be done in realtime, how could it not interfere with managed copy? Thanks.

Please see the response from the insider at Sigma. All video stream processing has to happen prior to the decoder, so this should not cause any problems for managed copy.

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post #116 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bjonni View Post

A couple of weeks ago people complained about how DD+ tracks sounded when played on the 360 add-on. Some just thought the volume was lower and others said it sounded like some sort of dynamic range compression was taking place. You (amir) said in a post that your team was investigating these reports and it was then assumed by a lot of posters in the HD DVD player forum that a fix will be included in the update that will add DTS output. Maybe I have missed a post with all the details, not hard to do here especially during the holidays, so I wonder if either one of you could clarify:

Did you confirm that there is a problem with DD+ audio tracks on the 360 add-on?

If you did, will it be fixed by the update that adds DTS output?

I haven't heard anything definitive on this, and all the people I'd ask are on vacation until next week. I'll post when I get something back.

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post #117 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Zuber View Post

If the AACS LA decides to revoke a key for some reason, is there a requirement (or at least an expectation) that the revocation be announced publicly, including details of affected hardware and software?

To add to this - IIRC, there is a stiff penalty if the security of a player is compromised. Would the current "break" penalize PowerDVD makers ... ?
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post #118 of 4841 Old 12-29-2006, 12:46 PM
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I asked this yesterday to bkilian. Could any other insider answer this?

Are you aware of the proposed/rumored profiles for HD-DVD? If true, is it related to reducing HDi performance or increasing it from current specs? Is this about new class of players or is it about classifying the players within the current specs? Any info outside of the NDA is appreciated.

I am just trying to figure out impact of this on my near future PC upgrade (if you can believe that).

"I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." - George Bernard Shaw
"I want lossless audio. Let me be the judge of what is good enough for me" - kdragon :)
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post #119 of 4841 Old 12-30-2006, 12:00 PM
 
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Paidgeek,

Any chance we'll see Bram Stoker's Dracula on BD? If so please make sure it doesn't turn out like TFE, the Superbit was great on DVD.
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post #120 of 4841 Old 12-30-2006, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kdragon View Post

I asked this yesterday to bkilian. Could any other insider answer this?

Are you aware of the proposed/rumored profiles for HD-DVD? If true, is it related to reducing HDi performance or increasing it from current specs? Is this about new class of players or is it about classifying the players within the current specs? Any info outside of the NDA is appreciated.

I am just trying to figure out impact of this on my near future PC upgrade (if you can believe that).

I'm not privy to any performance levels other than level 1. Level 1 describes the minimum performance required by a player to be able to play any disc.
You can get the Level 1 document from the DVD forum website (PDF). If they make more levels, I suspect they would change things like the minimum required persistent storage, or the size of the pixel buffer or filecache. I doubt you need to worry about it when planning your next PC upgrade.
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