So now that HD-DVD AACS is cracked? - Right before CES. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
Petra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Do you expect any major movement from studios? this news happened just before CES 2007. Will Universal shift their position becoming neutral? Will Warner or Paramount become blu-ray exclusive? What do you think? discuss! civilizedly!


http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/a...kuphddvd-tool/
Petra is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:29 PM
Member
 
HydrogenCyanide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: St. Catharines On, Canada
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm not sure but I thought that Blu-ray uses the same protection scheme? I could be wrong though!!

Either way......this is not good news for the future of HD DVD or Blu Ray
HydrogenCyanide is offline  
post #3 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hmurchison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,967
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Why would the studios make "ANY" movement? AACS isn't like CSS encryption. A hacker may have initial success but there are ways to plug the holes.

This is such a dumb thread.
hmurchison is offline  
post #4 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rlsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 5,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
^
Blu-ray adds another DRM layer, called BD+. This might affect the process.

I would not take this too seriously right now until more is known about it.

As a generality, it seems to me that it is very hard to develop a system that allows people to see and hear the movie but not copy it! Microsoft spends a lot of money trying to make Windows secure and look at the results so far. [This is not Microsoft bashing, merely an expression of the difficulties involved.]

As to whether or not it affects CES, I would doubt it at this point.

This could mean that how HD DVD works with computers will be reconsidered (and perhaps Blu-ray as well.)
rlsmith is offline  
post #5 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
Petra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HydrogenCyanide View Post

I'm not sure but I thought that Blu-ray uses the same protection scheme? I could be wrong though!!

Either way......this is not good news for the future of HD DVD or Blu Ray

BD has 2 more layers of protection
1. BD+
2. Digital Watermark or ROM-Mark. This one is built into players, if I'm not mistaken
Petra is offline  
post #6 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,000
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

^
Blu-ray adds another DRM layer, called BD+. This might affect the process.

BD+ requires AACS to work. Its usage is disallowed without AACS. In addition, BD+ is pretty defenseless without AACS. So there is no salvation for BD if AACS is broken. Also, Alex reports that in the BD seminar in December, they said BD+ is not ready and won't be there for some time...

Quote:
This could mean that how HD DVD works with computers will be reconsidered (and perhaps Blu-ray as well.)

AACS already has seperate provisions for PC use versus CE.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #7 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Capek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
As far as I'm aware, BD+ has not been used on any title to date. And I haven't seen any mention of it being used on announced titles. An insider can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that both BD and HD-DVD are using identical copy protection at this time.
Capek is offline  
post #8 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
Petra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So amirm, what does all this mean? AACS is pretty much useless now? What can be done to fix this?
Petra is offline  
post #9 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
b.greenway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post

Will Warner or Paramount become blu-ray exclusive?

hahahaha.
b.greenway is offline  
post #10 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Capek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post

Do you expect any major movement from studios? this news happened just before CES 2007. Will Universal shift their position becoming neutral? Will Warner or Paramount become blu-ray exclusive? What do you think? discuss! civilizedly!


http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/a...kuphddvd-tool/

Sure. But first you have to explain just wtf "civilizedly" means. lol
Capek is offline  
post #11 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xbdestroya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post

2. Digital Watermark or ROM-Mark. This one is built into players, if I'm not mistaken

This is the big one IMO.
xbdestroya is offline  
post #12 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
Petra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I did a wiki for ROM-Mark

Quote:
The Blu-ray Disc Association also agreed to add a form of digital watermarking technology to the discs. Under the name "ROM-Mark", this technology will be built into all ROM-producing devices, and requires a specially licensed piece of hardware to insert the ROM-mark into the media during replication. All Blu-ray Disc playback devices must check for the mark. Through licensing of the special hardware element, the BDA believes that it can eliminate the possibility of mass producing BD-ROMs without authorization.

Petra is offline  
post #13 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,000
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra View Post

So amirm, what does all this mean? AACS is pretty much useless now? What can be done to fix this?

First, it means nothing yet. I hope the mods change the title of this topic to say AACS is "potentially" hacked.

Second, any hacker would also quickly move on to BD and do the same there.

Third, depending on the nature of break, there are a number of countermeasures in AACS. This is not CSS where any break is a global break. But until those facts are known, there is not much to discuss.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #14 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 06:58 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,000
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

This is the big one IMO.

Big one for what? The ROM mark provides no protection in these situations.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #15 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xbdestroya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Big one for what? The ROM mark provides no protection in these situations.

Describe 'situation?'

Are we talking about burning by the home-hobbyist ford playing 'back-ups,' or are we talking about massive counterfeiting operations? No in the former situation it does nothing, but in the later it does... whereas HD DVD has no such added security measure.

When and if AACS does get "Jon'd," I believe the ROM-Mark is going to have a material effect on the degrees to which the IPs proliferate on the street, HD DVD vs BD.

Ironically of course, the current equipment expense and 'difficulty' of BD replication is in a way it's own barrier to mass piracy operations, at least for the time being. HD DVD has no such 'layman' constraints. Layman of course being used liberally in this context...
xbdestroya is offline  
post #16 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hmurchison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,967
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Describe 'situation?'

Are we talking about burning by the home-hobbyist ford playing 'back-ups,' or are we talking about massive counterfeiting operations? No in the former situation it does nothing, but in the later it does... whereas HD DVD has no such added security measure.

When and if AACS does get "Jon'd," I believe the ROM-Mark is going to have a material effect on the degrees to which the IPs proliferate on the street, HD DVD vs BD.

Ironically of course, the current equipment expense and 'difficulty' of BD replication is in a way it's own barrier to mass piracy operations, at least for the time being. HD DVD has no such 'layman' constraints. Layman of course being used liberally in this context...

Give it up...you went down the wrong road. ROM Mark has nothing to do with cracks like this. You're trying to make a link that simply isn't there.
hmurchison is offline  
post #17 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:09 PM
 
Rob Zuber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

But until those facts are known, there is not much to discuss.

If this guy were to distribute his cracked movie on the internet (as an example), is there any kind of watermark or signal in the movie file that would identify the specific piece of hardware used to crack it?
Rob Zuber is offline  
post #18 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xbdestroya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Give it up...you went down the wrong road. ROM Mark has nothing to do with cracks like this. You're trying to make a link that simply isn't there.

I see. So... you don't disagree with me, you just think it's the 'wrong road.'

You may not understand the premise of this thread, but it's not the fact that AACS has been cracked. The premise of this thread is that studios may seek further comfort in BDs added security layers. ROM-Mark is a very real aspect of that, because it effects the viability of breaches like these on the mass piracy market. Which is considered 'mass' for a reason...

We're not talking about P2P download/burns here.
xbdestroya is offline  
post #19 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Low Roller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
How many HD-DVD 360 drives will M$ sell because of this? (assuming this true and can be easily repeated)

Heck, I have/had no intentions of buying a player for either format, but even I might be temped to buy one for $200 if it has this type of functionality. I'll wait a while, though, and see how this plays out. I can 'get by' with using vanilla DVD for a good long time.

I could probably rant on for a bit about my feelings about DRM schemes, but I'll just vote with my wallet and watch the fur fly.
Low Roller is offline  
post #20 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:13 PM
Senior Member
 
xswl0931's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you read the linked thread above, AACS is not "cracked". In order to decrypt the protected media, you have to provide different keys for each film. It doesn't explain how they obtained the keys.
xswl0931 is offline  
post #21 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,000
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Describe 'situation?'

Once the drive authenticates the media as being real, which is the case in this claimed attack, then from then on, the Rom mark plays no part. Indeed, this is the major weakness of Rom mark. In real world, it provides no protection as hackers can steal the bits even with a valid Rom mark. And once the bits are taken, and distributed electronically, it doesn't matter what the mark did or did not.

Quote:


Are we talking about burning by the home-hobbyist burning and playing 'back-ups,' or are we talking about massive counterfeiting operations? No in the former situation it does nothing, but in the later it does... whereas HD DVD has no such added security measure.

I highly doubt that the target of anyone hacking BD is to go and distribute the same on BD disc. They are going to distribute them instead in electronic means or for downconversion to other formats. Heck, they can use the bits to make HD DVDs! Now that would be quite ironic, wouldn't it?

Quote:


When and if AACS does get "Jon'd," I believe the ROM-Mark is going to have a material effect on the degrees to which the IPs proliferate on the street, HD DVD vs BD.

Again, once the AACS layer is broken, and bits are in the clear, the format is broken and whether it had a mark or not is of little consequence.

Quote:


Ironically of course, the current equipment expense and 'difficulty' of BD replication is in a way it's own barrier to mass piracy operations, at least for the time being. HD DVD has no such 'layman' constraints. Layman of course being used liberally in this context...

Please see above.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #22 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xbdestroya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I highly doubt that the target of anyone hacking BD is to go and distribute the same on BD disc. They are going to distribute them instead in electronic means or for downconversion to other formats. Heck, they can use the bits to make HD DVDs! Now that would be quite ironic, wouldn't it?

Amir I still don't agree with your spin on the issue wrt ROM-Mark; but on the side I guess you missed the thread a couple of weeks ago where a forum member successfully backed up an HD DVD to Blu-ray. So... is that irony deserving of a smily face as well?
xbdestroya is offline  
post #23 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hmurchison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,967
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

I see. So... you don't disagree with me, you just think it's the 'wrong road.'

You may not understand the premise of this thread, but it's not the fact that AACS has been cracked. The premise of this thread is that studios may seek further comfort in BDs added security layers. ROM-Mark is a very real aspect of that, because it effects the viability of breaches like these on the mass piracy market. Which is considered 'mass' for a reason...

We're not talking about P2P download/burns here.

The studios likely know that all encryption methods are eventually defeated. The object is to keep the price/technology of piracy so high it's not worth it to all but the largest outfits. I've never been a fan of technology like ROM Mark. My guess is it'll be easier to defeat than gaining temporary access to HD data through AACS.
hmurchison is offline  
post #24 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Forceflow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The bottom line is that all the BD fans celebrating this news are proving how poisonous and foolish they're celebration is towards the format war. If AACS is in fact temporarily hacked, it means just as much bad studio mojo (for a lack of better term) for BD as HD DVD. As noted earlier, keys are still secured and the author does not disclose how (or if he did) obtain the keys.

There is no spin on the audio mark, the "additional layers of BD protection" aren't really strong and rely on a strong foundation of AACS, without AACS they can easily crumble. Lets not jump off of cliffs because Petra induces a clear troll thread. (Trolls don't act like lemmings do they?)

***Warning*** Do not look into laser with remaining eye!!
Forceflow is offline  
post #25 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xbdestroya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

The studios likely know that all encryption methods are eventually defeated. The object is to keep the price/technology of piracy so high it's not worth it to all but the largest outfits. I've never been a fan of technology like ROM Mark. My guess is it'll be easier to defeat than gaining temporary access to HD data through AACS.

You can understand though, that the very reasons you are not a fan of ROM-Mark technology would be the very reasons the studios are. I think we can all take a random stab at guessing which format is more expensive to bootstrap a replication effort for as well.
xbdestroya is offline  
post #26 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xbdestroya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post

There is no spin on the audio mark, the "additional layers of BD protection" aren't really strong and rely on a strong foundation of AACS, without AACS they can easily crumble.

Explain that then to me would you Forceflow? This 'crumbling' you refer to.

There are too many posters on this forum that misinterpret Amir's statements and think that they themselves have gained the ability to speak authoritatively on the matters at hand because they think they are correctly parroting his claims.
xbdestroya is offline  
post #27 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
Petra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
the guy apparently is sharing his utility at rapidshare.com, I'm gonna check it out. It's Java based, I understand a little about Java


http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003380.html
Petra is offline  
post #28 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mr. Hanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Explain that then to me would you Forceflow? This 'crumbling' you refer to.

There are too many posters on this forum that misinterpret Amir's statements and think that they themselves have gained the ability to speak authoritatively on the matters at hand because they think they are correctly parroting his claims.

Totally hit the nail on the head there, xb!

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
Mr. Hanky is offline  
post #29 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:41 PM
Rio
Advanced Member
 
Rio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Since HD DVD player is allowed to play HD DVD-Video format on a HD DVD-ROM disc without AACS protection unlike BD player is not allowed to do so (ROM mark is also required), if certain title keys are compromised, there is no way to stop commercial pirated discs of certain titles being replicated. No countermeasure is available for this case.

If hacked one is a device key and the hacker unwisely distributes it, AACS entity will simply revoke that compromised key, plain and simple.

ROM mark does not work for home piracy and does not affect anything about decryption of AACS and converting plain data to another format. It only works for commercial pirated discs on BD players. But even ROM mark is useless against home piracy and video sharing on the internet, studios do really care about commercial piracy, I think.
Rio is offline  
post #30 of 490 Old 12-27-2006, 07:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
John Kotches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Troy, IL USA (St. Louis Area)
Posts: 7,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It hasn't even been successfully demonstrated that this has created an "in the clear" hacked copy yet. We're a little ahead of the game.

Here's the relevant portion of the text I'm referring to:

Quote:


We then ran a binary compare against the two. You'd think an unencrypted movie file would have more than just a few hex offsets changed by the unencryption process, but we haven't yet been able to test playing back the files, namely because WinDVD and PowerDVD both totally blow as demos. More shortly.

As best I can tell, all they've done is compared the binaries and proclaimed them different without the ability to play it back.

It is an unsubstantiated claim, and it is possible that AACS hasn't been cracked at all.

Quote:


According to a post on our favoritest of forums (Doom9) by DRM hacker du jour muslix64, his new BackupHDDVD tool decrypts and dismantles AACS on a Windows PC. Just feed the small utility a crypto key (it comes bundled with keys for a few popular HD DVD titles, with the promise of more on the way), and it'll dump the video right off the disc onto your hard drive, supposedly playable in any HD DVD compatible player.

This is like having an Enigma device and knowing the code key for the day. You have the crypto key you can get the clean output. There's no way of knowing how the key was retrieved and that is one of the most important points.

Another question of mine is how strong is this key? Not asked or answered.

While I'm by no means a cryppie the key strength is one of the key parms for determining how successful a brute force attack will be. Of course it's also possible that the key generation pattern is easily hacked, ie not sufficiently randomized which would lead to a more easily attacked key generation. I'm assuming it wasn't a criminally stupid key generation scheme.

Me, I think it's in the "too soon to tell" category. But it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Cheers,

Contributing Editor & Surround Music Reviewer Widescreen Review
Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
John Kotches is offline  
Reply HDTV Software Media Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off