AACS Not So Cracked After All - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

If a flood of their titles starts to appear on the P2P,

Who is their? All the release from both format will appear on P2P. I don't know why Universal is any special? Just because HD DVD addon is cheap and the someone happens to ripped Universal release first?

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post #182 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Who is their? All the release from both format will appear on P2P. I don't know why Universal is any special? Just because HD DVD addon is cheap and the someone happens to ripped Universal release first?

Sorry. They is the studios. All of them.

I'm not singling this out to be Universal exclusively. I merely point out that by concensus they have release the highest percentage of quality titles so far, and hence have the highest risk.

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post #183 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 08:59 AM
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So, where is the web site with the conspiracy theory that this hack is the work of HD DVD supporters wanting to stop the flood of BD titles?

We need some conspiracy theory balance!


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post #184 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 09:32 AM
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You know how we were all waiting on someone to figure out where AACS was hiding those dagnab private keys? BackupHDDVD seemed to work as advertised, but it needed access to the hard-coded "Volume Unique Keys" that unlock the encryption of each HD DVD disc. Well, the friendly folks at Doom9's Forum finally tracked down that elusive key in memory, and have already started leaking keys for a few HD titles, including nerd-fave Serenity (which has quickly made its way to the torrents), Peter Jackson's King Kong, and the ever-popular 12 Monkeys. It's still unclear at this point how HD DVD's key-revocation technology will affect HD DVD players and their users, and currently there a few playback issues with the ripped HD movies, even on fast machines. Still, it sounds like the hackers won't have too much trouble replicating their success, even if they lose a few ripped keys or even HD DVD players in the process to big bad MPAA, and we're guessing playback issues will be eventually sorted.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/13/r...ips-open-aacs/

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post #185 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:10 AM
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The compromise has been used by more people to unlock more titles.

Though apparently not all titles have worked.

In any case it seems that most of the current HD DVDs are up for grabs for anyone who can put this together (and it is not all that hard to do).

People are making a big deal about Universal since this could effectively make their titles available for burning to BD discs.

There is no conspiracy - the 'hacker' has made mention of going after BD+ once he feels happy that HD DVD features are all dealt with.

In any case, this is real and I think it will become pretty wide spread pretty quickly for those who want to do it.

It will be interesting to see if this affects the planned release of the HD DVD writing drives since that will open up the current batch of titles for ripping and reproduction... assuming the blank discs cost less than movies (which currently is not the case!).
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post #186 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Phloyd View Post

There is no conspiracy - the 'hacker' has made mention of going after BD+ once he feels happy that HD DVD features are all dealt with.

Excuse me but the guy has done almost nothing related to hack AACS. All he does is writing a AES-128 container and find that Windvd8 has put the title key in the clear. He couldn't even get the key from Powerdvd on XP.

Windvd is obvisouly so stupid that they didn't even bother to hide the title key. At least I hope muslix64 is not that stupid to feel happy.

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post #187 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Excuse me but the guy has done almost nothing related to hack AACS. All he does is writing a AES-128 container and find that Windvd8 has put the title key in the clear. He couldn't even get the key from Powerdvd on XP.

Windvd is obvisouly so stupid that they didn't even bother to hide the title key. At least I hope muslix64 is not that stupid to feel happy.

I didn't say he would succeed

I just said that he does not seem to have a bias.

Also it is the Volume keys that are being shared, though each of the title keys are apparently there also.

Agreed that AACS is not compromised.

Though with a number of keys becoming available, the chances of determining the key making methods are getting higher....
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post #188 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post

"Hack" can mean many things including finding exploits in a program. This IS a hack.

It is not because Windvd didn't even try to protect the key in the first place. Nobody has exploited anything. It is clear in the memory. If muslix64 is able to get the title key from Powerdvd, then it is a hack. AFAIK, with all the effort for the past two weeks, nobody succeed.

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post #189 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Phloyd View Post

Though with a number of keys becoming available, the chances of determining the key making methods are getting higher....

Well, with the bit level, I doubt 150 keys would be enough to get it done. If AACS is completely compromised, I bet these two formats are DOA.

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post #190 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

If a flood of their (edit: all studios') titles starts to appear on the P2P, yes I think their will be a pause.

Since Fox seems to be about the most protective (at least from things I see here) I do wonder if they will pause now. Different studios could make different choices here, but a pause by one or more wouldn't surprise me. Especially if they can just modify some AACS info on the discs and release them in way that they won't play on that version of WinDVD. I'm not sure how long that would take.

As far as high quality content, I remember when Sony used "Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle" for an early test disc. I figured it was because they wanted to use something that people wouldn't waste time trying to hack.

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post #191 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Windvd's device key and sequence key will be revoked right away. If AACS is really serious, they shouldn't handle out key to software until Vista PVP is used.

To hell with that, this is just bad programming that was exploited. They can implement a secure software implementation on XP. Let them revoke the WinDVD key, that is fine. Let Intervideo suffer and take a bit vs punishing everyone who uses XP and companies who can implement a secure playback method on XP.

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post #192 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Since Fox seems to be about the most protective (at least from things I see here) I do wonder if they will pause now. Different studios could make different choices here, but a pause by one or more wouldn't surprise me. Especially if they can just modify some AACS info on the discs and release them in way that they won't play on that version of WinDVD. I'm not sure how long that would take.

As far as high quality content, I remember when Sony used "Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle" for an early test disc. I figured it was because they wanted to use something that people wouldn't waste time trying to hack.

--Darin

Darin-

I agree with you here. Futhermore, I believe the response to this will be much more severe than users here expect.

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post #193 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pdermody View Post

They can implement a secure software implementation on XP.

To be honest with you, I don't think anyone could implement a secure playback software on XP. You might be able to protect the key. But you couldn't prevent fake drive attack.

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post #194 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:28 AM
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Microsoft declined to take the risk (XP HD disc player). That spoke volumes then. None of what has transpired surprises me.

As for the studio reaction, I think massive pressure will be brought the bear to disable PC software players until a solution can be found.

That could mean any title just about to go into production will be delayed for a new AACS block. Anyone know the lead time on replication?

Gary


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post #195 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post


That could mean any title just about to go into production will be delayed for a new AACS block. Anyone know the lead time on replication?

Gary

I think windvd's device key and sequence key will be blacklisted in the next replication cycle. The replication plant could reflect this change in realtime. At least, this is the impression after reading the 0.9.

Xing's css key was revoked 3-4 month later, IIRC.

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post #196 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

Microsoft declined to take the risk (XP HD disc player). That spoke volumes then. None of what has transpired surprises me.

As for the studio reaction, I think massive pressure will be brought the bear to disable PC software players until a solution can be found.

That could mean any title just about to go into production will be delayed for a new AACS block. Anyone know the lead time on replication?

You sum up my take on this exactly. I agree with lymzy that PC hi def disc players are likely to only be able to run on something like 64 bit Windows Vista in the near future. I wonder what Apple will have to offer as far as a Trusted Programming Mechanism?
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post #197 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:44 AM
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A hair-thin crack developed in the armor of AACS.
Now the question is whether it will be patched to be made invisible before a wedge is nailed into it to pry it open (like CSS).

Time will tell.

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post #198 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:46 AM
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We shall see how long it takes to hear something from AACS. I never looked at the list of founding members, but Sony, MS, Toshiba, Disney, Warner etc are all on it. That's a pretty big chunk of both formats so my guess it the response will apply for both as well.

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post #199 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phloyd View Post

In any case it seems that most of the current HD DVDs are up for grabs for anyone who can put this together (and it is not all that hard to do).

People are making a big deal about Universal since this could effectively make their titles available for burning to BD discs.

I wouldn't be surprised to read about a sales rush for the HD-DVD 360 drive now ... some of those forum boards are sooooo busy, you get "the server too busy" response ...
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post #200 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

That could mean any title just about to go into production will be delayed for a new AACS block. Anyone know the lead time on replication?

There are legal issues involved. The studios can't just start revoking software from other companies. A determination has to be made through an official process, I'd assume through the AACSLA.
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post #201 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by diogen View Post

A hair-thin crack developed in the armor of AACS.
Now the question is whether it will be patched to be made invisible before a wedge is nailed into it to pry it open (like CSS).

I don't get your point. Xing first leaked a CSS key. Jon took advantage of this and wrote decss. However, J6P soon found out that Decss no longer worked on new release after Xing's key was revoked. Then someone else came in and brutal crack the 40bit CSS. DVD was not considered crack until then. It has almost nothing to do with Jon and the original DECSS/Xing.


To apply the same logic, someone needs to crack AES128 by brutal force. But this is not going to happen in my life time.

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post #202 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Zuber View Post

There are legal issues involved. The studios can't just start revoking software from other companies. A determination has to be made through an official process, I'd assume through the AACSLA.

Right. And they probably will want to wait for that new AACS data block before going into production.

I wasn't trying to imply they'd do anything themselves, beyond wait for a solution.

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post #203 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

...To apply the same logic, someone needs to crack AES128 by brutal force. But this is not going to happen in my life time.

I didn't mean to imply AES128 will be cracked in your lifetime.
All DRM cracks in recent memory (not DVD) were based on intercepting keys in the open: DVD-A, WMV-HD (T2, later patched), even the first generation XBox done by an MIT student. Now the same with WinVDVD's implementation of AACS (interestingly, WinDVD was the player leaking DVD-A keys as well).

Now it is more an issue of logistics (based on Amir's comments, AACS was built with cracks like this in mind). Can WinXP be banned as a playing invironment? Will it be? Can computer playback be banned outright?

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post #204 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by diogen View Post

Now it is more an issue of logistics (based on Amir's comments, AACS was built with cracks like this in mind). Can WinXP be banned as a playing invironment? Will it be? Can computer playback be banned outright?

I'm surprised the AACS didn't insist on the WMV-HD model for XP (and other unsecure) general PC playback: Internet connection required, and per view license.

It would mean that this would have already been solved.

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post #205 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

I'm surprised the AACS didn't insist on the WMV-HD model for XP (and other unsecure) general PC playback: Internet connection required, and per view license.

IIRC, only the first two (?) WMV-HD titles were aquiring licenses over the net. It was replaced with on-disk license generators.
Amir said at that time it was a mistake (online licensing) and won't happen again.

MS had the luxury of having just one player play those titles.
Even ZP and TT were not independently developed WMV-HD players.

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post #206 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by diogen View Post


All DRM cracks in recent memory (not DVD) were based on intercepting keys in the open: DVD-A, WMV-HD (T2, later patched), even the first generation XBox done by an MIT student. Now the same with WinVDVD's implementation of AACS (interestingly, WinDVD was the player leaking DVD-A keys as well).

IIRC, DVD-A hack was not based on interception keys either. It was via fake driver to cheat Windvd into hand over the already decrypted audio bits. A backdoor hack it was. Really, DVD-A couldn't even be considered cracked because Windvd's key could be revoked although the released titles were compromised.

Today, we have not seen any hack. Just a AES-128 container using a title key in the clear to perform a AES function.

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post #207 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by diogen View Post

Amir said at that time it was a mistake (online licensing) and won't happen again.

It is not a mistake. It is a experiement. It won't happen again becaused this kind of DRM will turn off sales.

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post #208 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

It is not a mistake. It is a experiement. It won't happen again becaused this kind of DRM will turn off sales.

Semantics.
It was decided it's not the right way to go.
Can this be brought back for compromised players? Does AACS have such a provision (aquiring keys ovnline)?

The next couple months will be very intereting in terms of what DRM (and everything using it) is capable of.

Diogen.
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post #209 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 01:08 PM
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Today, we have not seen any hack. Just a AES-128 container using a title key in the clear to perform a AES function.

For those who object to the word hack I suppose we could all agree to call it a banana. But the fact remains that there are now confirmable keys being posted to the net and it appears that all HD DVD movies (and probably BD movies) sold to date can thus have the copy protection removed from them by sufficiently determined banana farmers.

I don't think revoking any current software players will change this for discs already in circulation so we can probably expect most of those movies to also eventually be posted somewhere.

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post #210 of 603 Old 01-13-2007, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

I think you're missing the point here. What difference does it make if its a fake driver or backdoors or exploits?

What is my point?
People think this is the first crack which will led to the meltdown of AACS are kdding themselves. There is no hack/exploit in this case just a copy&paste.

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Who cares how it is done.


Of course nobody cares unless they couldn't rip for free anymore.

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