AACS Not So Cracked After All - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 603 Old 01-15-2007, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

Can you also count how many DVDs are out and while you are at it how many DVDs were sold in '06 ?

Oh, I get it. Sarcasm.

I guess you don't find this alarming. Six in two days means that the entire HD DVD library will be out in about two months.
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post #242 of 603 Old 01-15-2007, 09:51 PM
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Its much more than 6.
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post #243 of 603 Old 01-15-2007, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Low Roller View Post

Its much more than 6.

Those are the just the keys. Most of those have not been ripped yet. The key count is up to 47 according to doom9. So in the next few weeks those will be coming.
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post #244 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Yep - Muslix keeps *saying* he's going to do a Bluray version, but yet happily continues milking the publicity for the HD DVD keys he's releasing.

I'm fairly convinced it's an anti-HD DVD campaign at this point, and until he writes a Bluray version and provides the means of obtaining the Bluray keys, I will not change my mind.

Forgive me if I predict that he will not do this until after the "powers that be" discover and close the "weakness" he claims to have found...

your theories are bogus..... the one and only reason HD DVD was attacked first, is that Microsoft released a 199$ HD DVD drive.

Also, Muslix himself has never posted a volume key, its other members of doom9.

Tyler Pruitt - Technical Liaison at SpectraCal
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post #245 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post

your theories are bogus..... the one and only reason HD DVD was attacked first, is that Microsoft released a 199$ HD DVD drive.

Also, Muslix himself has never posted a volume key, its other members of doom9.

I think what no one realizes is how sad a day this is for both Bluray and HD DVD.

A Bluray version will follow within days - Muslix won't do it, but someone else will. The same software that plays HD DVDs will show keys for Bluray also.

So, short-term, there'll be loads of "hurrahs" from those looking for illegal copies - but medium-term, both formats are now fatally wounded, perhaps.

Bluray's BD+ protection layer is far from implementation, as it doesn't seem to be finalized yet - so at the very least, BR studios are going to freeze further releases out of a modicum of caution.

Hats off to the AACS-LA folks for making their protection so limp and for not doing a better job of inspecting and policing the players...
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post #246 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MickeyDora View Post

Those are the just the keys. Most of those have not been ripped yet. The key count is up to 47 according to doom9. So in the next few weeks those will be coming.

Is this what you mean?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=120611
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post #247 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rack04 View Post

Is this what you mean?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=120611

Yes and there are others that have not been updated for some reason.
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post #248 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 08:42 AM
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Blu-ray keys may be eminent.
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post #249 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 12:18 PM
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The AACS protection system clearly appears to have been too weak. Yes, we all know that the encryption has NOT been cracked (as stated on my site), but the "system" has allowed Volume keys to be found, which will result in both Bluray and HD DVD movies being compromised.
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post #250 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

The AACS protection system clearly appears to have been too weak. Yes, we all know that the encryption has NOT been cracked (as stated on my site), but the "system" has allowed Volume keys to be found, which will result in both Bluray and HD DVD movies being compromised.

The point is that AACS can't control improper player implementation, but does have revocation rules built in. AACS planned on this scenario and should now take steps to 1) penalize if appropriate, 2) Add compromised players to the revocation list.

True? If so, AACS has delivered exactly what was promised.
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post #251 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

The AACS protection system clearly appears to have been too weak. Yes, we all know that the encryption has NOT been cracked (as stated on my site), but the "system" has allowed Volume keys to be found, which will result in both Bluray and HD DVD movies being compromised.

I wouldn't say that the "AACS protection system" is "too weak". WinDVD didn't implement it properly. It's like a locksmith doing a piss-poor job on making the locks for your house. After your house gets robbed, you don't blame the "lock system", but the implementor of that system wrt your house.

According to a couple posts above, WinDVD will get fined $8 million for their sloppiness. Where you might be right in "AACS protection is too weak", is that the penalty should have been much higher, like $80 million. Then WinDVD wouldn't have been so lax.
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post #252 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 12:46 PM
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By "system" I mean the whole "system", including the process for inspecting the players, even software players, before granting them a license.

It does very little good to revoke a software players license after the horses have left the barn.

What if there had been 10,000 titles out when a player was cracked? They would all still have been accessible since the keys were already out.

The "system" was flawed, in that it could so easily be bypassed, and this applies to Bluray as much as it does to HD DVD.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but it now seems obvious that AACS-LA should have been far more active in checking that these players weren't blatantly weak.
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post #253 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

The AACS protection system clearly appears to have been too weak. Yes, we all know that the encryption has NOT been cracked (as stated on my site), but the "system" has allowed Volume keys to be found, which will result in both Bluray and HD DVD movies being compromised.

You mean something like this:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8622.html
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post #254 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

...

It does very little good to revoke a software players license after the horses have left the barn.

...

Well, 150 horses have left the barn ... and there are 300 more left in the barn for this year?
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post #255 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ilka View Post

Well, 150 horses have left the barn ... and there are 300 more left in the barn for this year?

Not to mention another 300 for the Bluray barn also
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post #256 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 01:51 PM
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And people wonder why the studios aren't releasing the "crown jewels" of their content yet.

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #257 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 03:27 PM
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AACS was never going to stop piracy. Windows Activation doesn't stop piracy. They both simply make life difficult.

AACS LA should inspect the software players and when they are able to duplicate the issue then they revoke the players. Once the players are revoked new movies will only play on new players, plus discs will include the player keys in the host revoked list. Once one of the flawed players reads a disc that has it listed on a host revoked list it will not be able to playback anything. The user will be forced to upgrade to new version which is not flawed. Plus the studios can re-release the current titles with newer volume keys and listing the flawed software players in the revoked host key list.

Fast Forward a few months. Multiple copies of movies each with incompatible keys. Sure the serenity key is on the web but is it the same version of serenity that you have. For hackers if they put the wrong disc in the drive the host revocation system will prevent the flawed software from running. Upgrading to the new version of powerdvd or windvd won't affect legitimate users but it will prevent stealing future and even current titles.

See how confusing of a mess it creates? Now compare that to CSS where one piece of software can make a perfect copy of every disc every made and every disc in the future. The AACS flaw relies on finding not just this exploit but finding a future exploit once this hole is closed. Combine that with the ability to release the movie with multiple keys and the ability for future versions of older movies to kill the flawed software and you have a system that only the diehard will try to hack.
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post #258 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

AACS was never going to stop piracy. Windows Activation doesn't stop piracy. They both simply make life difficult.

AACS LA should inspect the software players and when they are able to duplicate the issue then they revoke the players. Once the players are revoked new movies will only play on new players, plus discs will include the player keys in the host revoked list. Once one of the flawed players reads a disc that has it listed on a host revoked list it will not be able to playback anything. The user will be forced to upgrade to new version which is not flawed. Plus the studios can re-release the current titles with newer volume keys and listing the flawed software players in the revoked host key list.

Fast Forward a few months. Multiple copies of movies each with incompatible keys. Sure the serenity key is on the web but is it the same version of serenity that you have. For hackers if they put the wrong disc in the drive the host revocation system will prevent the flawed software from running. Upgrading to the new version of powerdvd or windvd won't affect legitimate users but it will prevent stealing future and even current titles.

See how confusing of a mess it creates? Now compare that to CSS where one piece of software can make a perfect copy of every disc every made and every disc in the future. The AACS flaw relies on finding not just this exploit but finding a future exploit once this hole is closed. Combine that with the ability to release the movie with multiple keys and the ability for future versions of older movies to kill the flawed software and you have a system that only the diehard will try to hack.

I think that you may not be seeing the forest (pirating) cause you're too close to the trees (AACS key revocation procedure)

The path you are going down is a demonstration of how the studios expect the system to work in the real world. Yes, new HD-DVD's with new keys will disallow older versions of software players and hacked hardware players from playing them. I'm not even going to go down the path of how unbelievably complex that entire process is going to get once they start doing it... Suffice it to say that it's a wonder anyone can reliably watch any HD content as it is, let alone with content providers intentionally trying to shut viewers down. Go read up on the D* HR20 thread over at dbstalk.com to see what I mean here.

But I digress from what I think the "forest" part you are missing is. There is, apparently right now (don't know for sure cause I don't use the software), a ripped copy of the Serenity movie out on one of the torrent systems. It's there, and you can get it right now. It's probably been done thousands of times as you read this....

Now, you can start telling me how expensive it is to store those 19GB on a hard drive, which is about $6.00 today, $3.00 next year and $1.00 the year after that. And you can also tell me how expensive blank HD-DVDR's are, $19.00 today, $8.00 next year and $4.00 in 2009, you get the idea. And you can also tell me about how really hard it is for someone to burn this torrent copy of a HD-DVD onto a HD-DVDR and play it on a player of some kind. And this I believe hasn't actually been done yet. But, there are *hundreds* of people trying to do this cause thats what they do. Then someone will write a nice GUI front end just like was done for DeCSS, and about 1 year from now we are at the point where a moderately computer savvy J6P can roll his own, for less than the cost of buying the product at retail.

I'm not saying that I think it's right, I don't condone piracy and don't do it myself. But for goodness sake, theres entire web sites just dedicated to doing it.

Bottom line is that, from my perspective at least, the content distributors are making things pretty complex. Just look at the key revocation and all the problems that is going to cause. J6P goes and buys a player, and one fine day it stops playing all his new HD-DVD's. I guarantee that is going to happen, simply because anything that complex is going to be absolutely riddled with problems and unforeseen issues. I think that is going to be more of a problem for the long term viability of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray than rampant piracy. This coupled with things like the newly released "Joost" where other content providers can get in the game, even the HD game though not right now, and I think the people who are providing the current HD content are going to find that the market for such content isn't going to be as great as they had hoped. They will blame the pirates, and come up with AACS-2, which will increase the complexity of the anti-piracy system by a couple orders of magnitude. When what it boils down to is that their greed is what will have doomed them from the beginning.

JMHO,
Robert
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post #259 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 04:52 PM
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Now, you can start telling me how expensive it is to store those 19MB on a hard drive...

What HD Movie is only 19MB?
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post #260 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ezra View Post

Challenge the information, do not attack the poster...

I want the information, not wishful comments repeated by a member. It's the fact that HD DVD has been cracked, looking away from it helps no one.

By the way, why not change the thread title to a more appropriate one? It's very confusing.
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post #261 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ezra View Post

What HD Movie is only 19MB?

I assume he meant 19GB and was talking about Serenity.

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post #262 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael View Post

And people wonder why the studios aren't releasing the "crown jewels" of their content yet.

From news reports on the net, the Serenity rip is 19GB. That's a lot of data to download over current Internet connections which makes the impact of piracy somewhat less.

For some AVS readers, I can imagine the technology could have a "legal" use since they would rip their HD DVD's and put them on their media servers (while not having to wait for Managed Copy)

But what happens if the rip technology get into the hands of pirate duplicators (say in Asia). I understand that HDDVD can be produced on DVD lines with minimal changes so it's theoretically possible for pirate HD DVD's to be produced and sold cheaply from the usual places

BluRay might be slightly more immune to this sort of piracy since there are few BluRay mastering plants so less opportunity for pirates to find a place to press their releases. Now could a ripped BD be re-mastered for HD DVD? Technically possible I guess - those pirates are pretty ingenious folks!

Food for thought I guess
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post #263 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnowicki View Post

I think that you may not be seeing the forest (pirating) cause you're too close to the trees (AACS key revocation procedure)

The path you are going down is a demonstration of how the studios expect the system to work in the real world. Yes, new HD-DVD's with new keys will disallow older versions of software players and hacked hardware players from playing them. I'm not even going to go down the path of how unbelievably complex that entire process is going to get once they start doing it... Suffice it to say that it's a wonder anyone can reliably watch any HD content as it is, let alone with content providers intentionally trying to shut viewers down. Go read up on the D* HR20 thread over at dbstalk.com to see what I mean here.

But I digress from what I think the "forest" part you are missing is. There is, apparently right now (don't know for sure cause I don't use the software), a ripped copy of the Serenity movie out on one of the torrent systems. It's there, and you can get it right now. It's probably been done thousands of times as you read this....

Now, you can start telling me how expensive it is to store those 19GB on a hard drive, which is about $6.00 today, $3.00 next year and $1.00 the year after that. And you can also tell me how expensive blank HD-DVDR's are, $19.00 today, $8.00 next year and $4.00 in 2009, you get the idea. And you can also tell me about how really hard it is for someone to burn this torrent copy of a HD-DVD onto a HD-DVDR and play it on a player of some kind. And this I believe hasn't actually been done yet. But, there are *hundreds* of people trying to do this cause thats what they do. Then someone will write a nice GUI front end just like was done for DeCSS, and about 1 year from now we are at the point where a moderately computer savvy J6P can roll his own, for less than the cost of buying the product at retail.

I'm not saying that I think it's right, I don't condone piracy and don't do it myself. But for goodness sake, theres entire web sites just dedicated to doing it.

Bottom line is that, from my perspective at least, the content distributors are making things pretty complex. Just look at the key revocation and all the problems that is going to cause. J6P goes and buys a player, and one fine day it stops playing all his new HD-DVD's. I guarantee that is going to happen, simply because anything that complex is going to be absolutely riddled with problems and unforeseen issues. I think that is going to be more of a problem for the long term viability of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray than rampant piracy. This coupled with things like the newly released "Joost" where other content providers can get in the game, even the HD game though not right now, and I think the people who are providing the current HD content are going to find that the market for such content isn't going to be as great as they had hoped. They will blame the pirates, and come up with AACS-2, which will increase the complexity of the anti-piracy system by a couple orders of magnitude. When what it boils down to is that their greed is what will have doomed them from the beginning.

JMHO,
Robert

I agree with much of that. Joost has potential, look at what Skype has done with VOIP. The anti-piracy DRM schemes will hurt the MPAA in the long run. The companies the RIAA represents never imagined Apple's iTunes would be what it has become. Apple's DRM may be one of the few examples of "successful" DRM, but who does that benefit? The content providers? No, not really. Apple could care less about pirated music, the stuff filling most iPods out their. They're interested in selling iPods. In the aftermath of Napster, Apple trotted out their DRM secured iTunes in an attempt to woo the the MPAA that was scared $h**less about these 'internets.' They ran to Apple, giving Steve Jobs the chance to pick the pricing for their precious content, just as long as it was "secure." But a funny thing happened. The DRM that the RIAA was looking to as its savior, has benefited Apple MUCH more than the RIAA. Now they are forced to have Steve Jobs assess the value of their precious content, and he doesn't give a crap about them. Just as long as people buy iPods.

DRM will never work the way the content providers want. The more restrictive it gets, the more JP6's will start wearing eyepatches. And yes, their are people, websites, and some fledgling political organizations growing to remove the shackles of DRM and contents provider's nihilistic dreams. Look at the Pirate Bay, they're actually attempting to buy their own country.
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post #264 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 05:52 PM
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DVD-Jon defended himself in court twice using the "Wanted to play on Linux" story.
Doom9 allowed publishing the keys on his site using "Want to watch on a non-HDCP display" angle.
We were told for over a year what a smart bunch of people have developed AACS.
And a person just reading its whitepaper breaks the first player in existence.

Doesn't it sound like somebody is holding customers for idiots?
If there is a conspiracy here, that it's on studio's behalf: calling content protection a system that can't be called as such.

DIogen.
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post #265 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Yep - Muslix keeps *saying* he's going to do a Bluray version, but yet happily continues milking the publicity for the HD DVD keys he's releasing.

I'm fairly convinced it's an anti-HD DVD campaign at this point, and until he writes a Bluray version and provides the means of obtaining the Bluray keys, I will not change my mind.

Forgive me if I predict that he will not do this until after the "powers that be" discover and close the "weakness" he claims to have found...

The cost of entry to verify and exploit is considerably higher with BD. What's the cheapest PC drive? $500?

It may be anti-Microsoft, but I think it is overly paranoid to make it a format thing. Those exploiting it, and copy titles to the P2P are surely interested in BD titles too. Why don't some of those dozens or hundreds look into it?

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post #266 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Yep - Muslix keeps *saying* he's going to do a Bluray version...

Lie. He never said that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

...but yet happily continues milking the publicity for the HD DVD keys he's releasing....

Lie. He himself never released a single key.

"Milking the publicity" would be much more applicable to your post here and on your site where publicity comes from Amir's positive remarks about your "petition" activities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Forgive me if I predict that he will not do this...

My advice - not that you asked for it or ever will - would be to ask for forgiveness for your past lies before you do this for the future predictions.

Diogen.
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post #267 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 07:40 PM
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I wonder if HD DVD and BD are not getting more news and interest now by being cracked then they ever did by being released.

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post #268 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 08:48 PM
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I wonder if HD DVD and BD are not getting more news and interest now by being cracked then they ever did by being released.

- Tom

Now there is a very good observation!
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post #269 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

I want the information, not wishful comments repeated by a member. It's the fact that HD DVD has been cracked, looking away from it helps no one.

By the way, why not change the thread title to a more appropriate one? It's very confusing.

I suggest that *you* are the one "looking away".

It's pretty obvious that if the PC playback software is leaving the Volume keys in memory when playing the HD DVD discs, it is going to leave them in memory when playing the Bluray discs also.

Your "upset" at this statement seems to be denial.

A Bluray exploit on the back of this "muslix" episode is inevitable - I still think that "muslix" did this for negative publicity, so I'll bet a hypothetical $100 (forum rules, and all) that "muslix" will never release a Bluray version of his exploit.

And I'll bet another hypothetical $100 that someone else DOES.

Is that what you misunderstood?

And for the record, AACS has not been cracked, merely bypassed, so the thread title is accurate in my view.
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post #270 of 603 Old 01-16-2007, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

I wonder if HD DVD and BD are not getting more news and interest now by being cracked then they ever did by being released.

Definitely so among nerds & hackers. Among J6P ... no.
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