CES: The Studios Take Charge [article] - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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This is the second of my articles about CES and the format war, with my take on it.


http://www.tvpredictions.com/smith011407.htm


Comments welcome!
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post #2 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 07:12 PM
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with all due respect, it reads like an article written for know-nothing-J6P (far lower knowledge than the regular-J6P).

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post #3 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 07:52 PM
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I loved Casino Royale ! I was rooting for David Craig after I heard he was in the running and having seen his acting as well as him being more of a man than Brosnan. Now that CR has set the record for Bond box office I feel vindicated. Bring it on BD ! Oh and yea, the review is short on details and content.

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post #4 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:01 PM
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What can I say. It is in the same theme of your pre-show report. Namely, tilt toward BD, no matter what the news.

6 CE companies announced support for HD DVD. That was one of the key tenants of BD before, that everyone loved them. Now it is completely dispelled. One of their exclusives, LG, now supporting HD DVD. You mentioned most of this, but you drew no conclusion for expanded support for HD DVD. Why? Isn't it remarkable that one of their founding members, having known everything the rest of them know, still believes they must support HD DVD?

You also made no mention of our announcement with Broadcom to build reference design for HD DVD so that many more companies can enter the market. The reaction to this at CES was fantastic.

No mention was made of the innovative scenarios we showed around interactivity and network sharing either. Remember why Disney joined BDA and how they used to trumpet interactivity? Questioning what happened to all of that would have newsworthy.

And what do you mean Universal was quiet? They gave the keynote for HD DVD. They lead HD DVD marketing for US. Just because they don't pre-announce stuff, it doesn't mean they don't support HD DVD. They are way, way ahead of Fox/Disney and even Sony in supporting HD DVD so far with some of their top titles. What Fox/Disney showed is simply going where they should have already.

And what did BDA really announce beside new titles from studios who should have always been producing BD titles? Nothing. Just a Samsung player. Sony only hinted about players, with no availability, etc, yet you give them top billing, while not mentioning the first high-end company to lend support to HD DVD (Meridian).

As I noted before CES, you have great insight and opportunity to tell a fresh story. Instead, what you wrote is what BDA likes you to write. BDA declares the war won and folks just repeat that.

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post #5 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What can I say. It is in the same theme of your pre-show report. Namely, tilt toward BD, no matter what the news.

6 CE companies announced support for HD DVD. That was one of the key tenants of BD before, that everyone loved them. Now it is completely dispelled. One of their exclusives, LG, now supporting HD DVD. You mentioned most of this, but you drew no conclusion for expanded support for HD DVD. Why? Isn't it remarkable that one of their founding members, having known everything the rest of them know, still believes they must support HD DVD?

You also made no mention of our announcement with Broadcom to build reference design for HD DVD so that many more companies can enter the market. The reaction to this at CES was fantastic.

No mention was made of the innovative scenarios we showed around interactivity and network sharing either. Remember why Disney joined BDA and how they used to trumpet interactivity? Questioning what happened to all of that would have newsworthy.

And what do you mean Universal was quiet? They gave the keynote for HD DVD. They lead HD DVD marketing for US. Just because they don't pre-announce stuff, it doesn't mean they don't support HD DVD. They are way, way ahead of Fox/Disney and even Sony in supporting HD DVD so far with some of their top titles. What Fox/Disney showed is simply going where they should have already.

And what did BDA really announce beside new titles from studios who should have always been producing BD titles? Nothing. Just a Samsung player. Sony only hinted about players, with no availability, etc, yet you give them top billing, while not mentioning the first high-end company to lend support to HD DVD (Meridian).

As I noted before CES, you have great insight and opportunity to tell a fresh story. Instead, what you wrote is what BDA likes you to write. BDA declares the war won and folks just repeat that.

You beat me to it

Since when are proposed announcements for release dates for software the big news in a hardware show?

Especially considering Sony's record on this in 06'?

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post #6 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:09 PM
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^^^that (amir's) was a very reasonable post. CES was better for HD DVD then BD. You cant call me a fandoy for a remark like that.
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post #7 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:09 PM
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Amir, Universal was quiet. They were quiet like BD50 is science fiction, that's how quiet they were. They may be the *most* onboard studio for HD DVD right now, but when you're in charge of marketing, and you don't do the simplest of marketing maneuvers for yourself, (ie the content announcement), it makes people wonder just how much 'most' means.

@rlsmith, I thought is was a good article. Amir's right that you could have mentioned more, but frankly why should you alone among all journalists be expected to provide a comprehensive overview? They'll report what they feel conveys the heart of what took place in their eyes, and you did the same. Makes sense. Fact is that if you were writing an HD DVD-leaning article, never in a million years would Amir show up to advise 'balance.'

For folk that think HD DVD 'won,' I'm not seeing it. And neither are any BD-only supporters I've seen. But there is many the HD DVD-only supporter that thinks BD won the show, I can tell you that much (and point anyone to the threads and posts).

(Of course today, less of those supporters are HD DVD-only; looks at Vancouver)
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post #8 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:13 PM
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Amir summed it up pretty well.

rlsmith, I hope you're getting paid for advertising BD.
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post #9 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

CES was better for HD DVD then BD. You cant call me a fandoy for a remark like that.

You're kidding! Then why do I see people who were exclusive to HD DVD switching to Blu-ray after CES?

I didn't see a single person from Blu-ray saying "WOW! What a great CES for HD DVD. I'm going to sell my Blu-ray player and buy and HD DVD player."

Toshiba's new player at the $599 pricepoint is fantastic. But you still need content. HD DVD had to do one thing: Steal Lionsgate or Disney. That's what I've been hearing all year. That Lionsgate and Disney were to go neutral. They did neither. Virtually no confirmed dates for any of the titles from Universal. It was not a disaster for HD DVD. They certainly won points, but this is about movies in high definition. And right now, it's looking like that's what they're going to lack.

That 300 title announcement is about as ridiculous as Fox claiming BD has won.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #10 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:34 PM
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This CES was all about pounding nails into the hddvd coffin. A lot of nails were added.
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post #11 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

This CES was all about pounding nails into the hddvd coffin. A lot of nails were added.

Nails? Who uses nails these days? We use modern stainless steel screws.

First, BD uses decade old MPEG-2 video compression and now nails!


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post #12 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:42 PM
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rlsmith is a widely known BR supporter and anti HD DVD. It doesn't surprise me at all that he would do the same as the BDA. No credibilty at all. Especially now.
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post #13 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:45 PM
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I just saw a post disappear really quickly about amir's last comment. What's that all about?
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post #14 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

This CES was all about pounding nails into the hddvd coffin. A lot of nails were added.



RLSmith waits until the 2nd to last paragraph of his article to even mention Chinese manufacture of HD-DVD like its a footnote.

Deeply discounted players in a Walmart kiosk with a shelf full of those red disks ends the format war.

The studios that he mentions at the top of his article have to either surrender the most precious real estate in North American retail or release in HD-DVD.

This alone takes this into the realm of the general public instead of the enthusiast.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4501097&EDATE=

Amir was right.

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post #15 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:47 PM
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I was very pleased with the news from CES. The additional harware support is what the BR crowd has always crowed about. Now that HD DVD will have ce support and have the ablity to deliver lower cost players, they are all scared to death about the waiste of money on a $1000.00 plus player. I don't blame them. I would be upset myself if I had been crazy enough to buy into the BR hype.

Desperate people say desperate things. We shouldn't get mad at them. We should feel sorry for their loss of so much money.
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post #16 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:48 PM
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Rah Rah, go Chinese cheapo junk! Yay!

Frankly, I'd rather have HD formats from real allies than someone like China. Oh well, I guess the Chinese are some straws for desperate format fans to cling to.
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post #17 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:48 PM
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I find it funny that people are calling out rlsmith for his pro BD spin and right away Amir jumps in with his pro HD DVD spin yet no one calls out Amir. No I don't find that funny actually, I find it telling. AVS is still very pro HD DVD although it's fun reading all of the defection threads. If HD DVD was a success at CES they sure failed to get that point across even to the heavily pro HD DVD crowd here at AVS.
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post #18 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:49 PM
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trgraphics, I got the hddvd addon for $120 total since I had a gift card. I think I probably wasted my money. The PS3 I got has the lineup of movies I want. I switched my netflix over to prefer blu-ray, and I'm not looking back.
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post #19 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

I just saw a post disappear really quickly about amir's last comment. What's that all about?

Eh, I decided to delete it... I often review my own posts and consider whether they're 'worthy' of me or not. The deleted post was basically one where I accused Amir of dodging the questions; but whatever.

Anyway, awesome - with Snickeing Hound and Trgraphics both in this thread now, the daily grind can get back underway.

Hit me up guys! Watchoo got? BDA propoganda? Sony plots to take over the world? Ah yes... Chinese manufacturer press releases.

Word.

Well hey, when they're available at Wal-mart PM me so I can run down and check it out.
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post #20 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyg View Post

I find it funny that people are calling out rlsmith for his pro BD spin and right away Amir jumps in with his pro HD DVD spin yet no one calls out Amir. No I don't find that funny actually, I find it telling. AVS is still very pro HD DVD although it's fun reading all of the defection threads. If HD DVD was a success at CES they sure failed to get that point across even to the heavily pro HD DVD crowd here at AVS.

wtf are you talking about? Amir didn't write an article for an online "news" site. Get with it dude, and try putting your comments into something resembling the proper context.
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post #21 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

Rah Rah, go Chinese cheapo junk! Yay!

Frankly, I'd rather have HD formats from real allies than someone like China. Oh well, I guess the Chinese are some straws for desperate format fans to cling to.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, the Chinese made the DVD players most people in North America are using.

"We did not have business relations with that company, Fuh Yuan."
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post #22 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:54 PM
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I don't have a problem in the world with someone buying a PS3 for movie playback only/ It costs Sony $300.00 to sell you that console and that is good business for HD DVD!
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post #23 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

Desperate people say desperate things. We shouldn't get mad at them. We should feel sorry for their loss of so much money.

Well, something is sending a lot of formerly HD DVD-exclusive consumers BD's way lately, that's for sure! Maybe you should spend more time in the HD DVD forum letting them know that in fact BD's the desperate format, and less time here arguing with the "Rayd."
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post #24 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

trgraphics, I got the hddvd addon for $120 total since I had a gift card. I think I probably wasted my money. The PS3 I got has the lineup of movies I want. I switched my netflix over to prefer blu-ray, and I'm not looking back.


Why do you feel you waisted your money Monty?
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post #25 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:56 PM
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Sadly you are right. And most of them are crapola.

I prefer major brand items. I like Onkyo for instance, so if they come out with an hddvd player that's great.

I'm still going to prefer BD, mostly because of capacity and bandwidth potential. The studio support makes it a no-brainer.
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post #26 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

Why do you feel you waisted your money Monty?

I bought 4 hddvd's, rented another 10 or so, now in my queue I have 1 hddvd and about 20 BD's on netflix. Looking at the release schedules, that's not going to change this year.
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post #27 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Well, something is sending a lot of formerly HD DVD-exclusive consumers BD's way lately, that's for sure! Maybe you should spend more time in the HD DVD forum letting them know that in fact BD's the desperate format, and less time here arguing with the "Rayd."

I don't disagree with what your saying for now. There have been quite a few buy the PS3 for movies only. Not a problem, as I have said.

I personally will not be getting one, but if someone feels the need to get one, great!
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post #28 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 09:02 PM
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The schedule is a bit thin right now for HD DVD but I can't believe it wil stay that way for long. But, until we here of scheduled release from both sides, I'm not concerned about it.

They announced a total of 300 titles this year. I don't know about you, but I know I will not be buying that many disks this year so There will be a lot of choice there for me.
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post #29 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

I prefer major brand items. I like Onkyo for instance, so if they come out with an hddvd player that's great.

I assume you know that Onkyo announced they will be building an HD DVD player. Yes?

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post #30 of 259 Old 01-13-2007, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What can I say. It is in the same theme of your pre-show report. Namely, tilt toward BD, no matter what the news.

6 CE companies announced support for HD DVD. That was one of the key tenants of BD before, that everyone loved them. Now it is completely dispelled. One of their exclusives, LG, now supporting HD DVD. You mentioned most of this, but you drew no conclusion for expanded support for HD DVD. Why? Isn't it remarkable that one of their founding members, having known everything the rest of them know, still believes they must support HD DVD?

You also made no mention of our announcement with Broadcom to build reference design for HD DVD so that many more companies can enter the market. The reaction to this at CES was fantastic.

No mention was made of the innovative scenarios we showed around interactivity and network sharing either. Remember why Disney joined BDA and how they used to trumpet interactivity? Questioning what happened to all of that would have newsworthy.

And what do you mean Universal was quiet? They gave the keynote for HD DVD. They lead HD DVD marketing for US. Just because they don't pre-announce stuff, it doesn't mean they don't support HD DVD. They are way, way ahead of Fox/Disney and even Sony in supporting HD DVD so far with some of their top titles. What Fox/Disney showed is simply going where they should have already.

And what did BDA really announce beside new titles from studios who should have always been producing BD titles? Nothing. Just a Samsung player. Sony only hinted about players, with no availability, etc, yet you give them top billing, while not mentioning the first high-end company to lend support to HD DVD (Meridian).

As I noted before CES, you have great insight and opportunity to tell a fresh story. Instead, what you wrote is what BDA likes you to write. BDA declares the war won and folks just repeat that.

Hi Amir,

Thanks for your extensive comments.

I obviously could not mention everything and keep the article focused. My basic point is that I see the studios stepping in after the technology companies have made a mess of this.

1. I think I mentioned all of the technology companies (not all of the Chinese companies by name) supporting HD DVD.
-- I mentioned the new Toshiba player.
-- I mentioned Onkyo
-- I mentioned that RCA has dropped the HD DVD line.
-- No, I didn't mention Meridian, although I followed this issue very closely this last week. I even tried to contact them to get their reaction. At the end of the day, I didn't see anything in the Meridian relationship that would affect the format war near term, so I omitted it.
-- BTW I had predicted that Microsoft might announce an XBox 360 with a built-in drive. I still think this would be a good product since it would be cheaper, more tightly integrated, and could incorporate HDMI. Since you didn't introduce one, I didn't mention it in the wrap-up.

2. I mentioned that Microsoft was working with Chinese manufacturers. Yes, I could have added more detail, stating for example that Microsoft was working with Broadcom to use Windows CE etc. I specifically said that HD DVD will have cheap players soon and that Blu-ray needs to move forward quickly before these enter the market if they are to have a chance.

3. No, I did not mention the interactivity features of either format. Many people are confused by this and not sure how much of it they are going to really want. Personally, while I make my living in interactive computing, I just want to see movies in the highest quality picture and sound. [When I saw Ben-Hur in 70mm/6 track magnetic during its original release, there were no interactive features, and I don't need any now to appreciate the film, but would like it in hidef soon. ] But I will wait to see what really develops here before I judge this point.

4. I did read summaries of Universal's keynote, and am aware that a Universal person works on HD DVD promotion. I was therefore more than puzzled by the lack of substance to their title announcements. I know what they have in their catalog and what films are coming in distribution this year, and thought that it would have been easy enough to create a press release with some enthusiasm. Others (including highdefdigest.com and thedigitalbits.com) were also puzzled.

I am sorry if I gave the impression that Blu-ray has the war "won". I did state that Blu-ray now appears to have the initiative, but that the window is very limited. I stated very clearly that getting cheap Chinese players into the mix is now an excellent strategy for HD DVD. In no way do I think that it is over.

As long as you have been kind enough to respond to me in such detail, I should add that I am just a lowly customer with no allegiance to any of these companies. I deeply resent the fact that the CE companies have created this format war for no good reason from the consumer's perspective. Either format would be great for me. I also think I could have designed a better format out of the pieces of the two we have if someone had asked me.

The fact that Warners is able to create two copies of essentially the same VC-1 byte string, copy them into two different substrata structures, and then glue them together, should indicate to everyone how small the differences really are between these two formats. You have posted how difficult a process these disks will be to manufacture. But why cannot we have the alternative of just having ONE COPY OF THE VC-1? Why do we need TWO?

I have 12 friends with high-end home theatres (plus many others with less interest); they are eager to buy something but will not until the format war is ended. These are people who buy disks by the carload and would happily replace hundreds of titles in their collections (as would I). Had we only one format, sales would have exploded this last year!

I truly hope that the studios will now find a way forward out of this mess. I wish I could say that I thought that Toshiba, Microsoft, Sony, Pioneer, etc., had been so diligent to avoid a conflict when they had the chance.

Thanks for listening and good luck!
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