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Whose Really holding us hostage?

15K views 321 replies 78 participants last post by  K.L. 
#1 ·
Many people here say its sony whose forcing stuff down our throat and holding us hostage. Youve got it backwards. It is Toshiba and Universal who are causing and prolonging this war. It is obvious that most Studios and Manufacturers want Blu Ray to be the format of the future as they picked it first and have firmly stuck with it. So why is Universal and Toshiba being stubborn and making this "war" go on longer than it should? They can end the war any day they want and we can all enjoy one format and we can begin Mass adoption.
 
#252 ·

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If the studios were all neutral, both formats would stand or fall, based solely on the relative merits of their respective technologies, and how effectively they are implemented. If, as so many here are fond of asserting, BD is clearly and obviously technologically superior to HD-DVD in all the ways which will matter to consumers, then HD-DVD won't stand a chance, will it? In the interim, competition might actually result in BD studios and CEs doing their utmost to quickly implement all of those cool interactive features, and capacity advantages which have the "potential" to make this war no-contest in the eyes of consumers.


look at Beta/VHS. there the studios started off neutral but as one side was winning the studios dropped the other side. The issue is that during Beta/VHS there was no alternative one was going to win the other was going to lose. Now there crappy DL, stolen DL, DVD. And unless people buy into HD disks, there is a good chance both will fall because people will say I am not spending a lot of money for a format that might lose. The only way to make the chaces of HD disks surviving and thriving is for people to buy. We are here on AVS where many are enthusiasts and there are still many (look at the other forums) that have decided to wait and see which side the wind is blowing before jumping in. Anything that prolongs the war is in essence bad for people that want HD, bad for studios bad for CEs.
 
#253 ·

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Originally Posted by wormraper /forum/post/0


standard blu-ray speak. "Wait till it gets better, it'll happen for sure"


theforce8686, you've almost hit the level of yoyo and Petra.

If you think HD peaked at launch and prices will never decrease for that either,then you dont know what you are talking about. I personally know that every format, VHS, LD, CD, DVD, etc has improved and gotten cheaper as time went on. Thats just my opinion I guess.
 
#254 ·

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Originally Posted by eightninesuited /forum/post/0


I think it's pretty clear by now that people encoding these discs at Warner and Universal are better than those at Sony, Lionsgate, etc... Fox is another story. They've been on the ball from day one.

Yeah, I agree, I terms of PQ, Fox has been the best of the BD exclusive companies in their releases but they've had issues with skimping on extras and charging more for their movies which is very disappointing.
 
#255 ·

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Originally Posted by theforce8686 /forum/post/0


Because every other format for every other media by every other company of all time has had quality improve and price decrease as time went on. So that is as close to a guarantee that I can give that it will happen.

Not true at all. Many, many storage products have come and gone because they were not economical compared to other formats or had yield issues. BD has chewed a lot with .1mm recording. They face a lot of difficulty in types of physics and material science which is hard to conquer.


People put so much trust in technology just solving its own problems. It can many times, but it is not a given. BD has been in research for nearly 8 years. How come they launched with only BD-25 if time heals all wounds?


The day you can sleep easy, is the day everyone can make BD discs, no one has to subsidize them, and there is no secrecy around how well it works. Until then, you are putting blind trust in wanting this situation to be over.


Most importantly, you are walking right into BD PR line. Which is to demand that the other side to give, rather than perform and let that show which side should give up. Please show me an example in all the formats which you say have gotten better and cheaper, where such declaration was at the heart of how it got established.
 
#256 ·

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Originally Posted by amirm /forum/post/0


Why do you think you will be very happy? Do you really think Sony would subsidize and hand make BD-50 discs if HD DVD was not around? What if they reverted back to BD-25 being the "standard" for the next three years and maybe longer?


And have you noticed that they are pricing their players high, even in light of competition from HD DVD? What if that competition goes away? Why would they reduce their prices then?

This works both ways; I read that the Tosh A1 was originally going to be over $1k but got cut in half (possibly for a loss) in order to give the format an early boost before BD launched.

Without BD chances are Tosh players would be $1k or more.
 
#257 ·

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Originally Posted by builty /forum/post/0


This works both ways; I read that the Tosh A1 was originally going to be over $1k but got cut in half (possibly for a loss) in order to give the format an early boost before BD launched.

No - that was because Sony is heavily subsidizing PS3. If BD was not in PS3 ... Tosh needn't have done this ...

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Without BD chances are Tosh players would be $1k or more.

And without HD DVD all your BD releases would have been cr*p ... just like the early releases.
 
#258 ·

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Originally Posted by amirm /forum/post/0


Why do you think you will be very happy? Do you really think Sony would subsidize and hand make BD-50 discs if HD DVD was not around? What if they reverted back to BD-25 being the "standard" for the next three years and maybe longer?


And have you noticed that they are pricing their players high, even in light of competition from HD DVD? What if that competition goes away? Why would they reduce their prices then?


Likewise for HD DVD. WHat's to stop HD DVD from dropping quality if it wins?
 
#260 ·

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Originally Posted by kjtatum /forum/post/0


Likewise for HD DVD. WHat's to stop HD DVD from dropping quality if it wins?

We strived for higher quality even when BD was not around (recall that we launched first). It was not the fear of BD that drove us there, it was the drive for excellence. And even today, we consider our competition the DVD, HD cable, and such. That is what drives us to produce the best quality.... Otherwise, consumers will not buy any form of HD optical media.
 
#261 ·

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Originally Posted by kjtatum /forum/post/0


Likewise for HD DVD. WHat's to stop HD DVD from dropping quality if it wins?

Market expectations, price of authoring and the ease of use of tools like HDi and VC-1 for the people making the discs.
 
#263 ·

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Originally Posted by amirm /forum/post/0


We strived for higher quality even when BD was not around (recall that we launched first). It was not the fear of BD that drove us there, it was the drive for excellence. And even today, we consider our competition the DVD, HD cable, and such. That is what drives us to produce the best quality.... Otherwise, consumers will not buy any form of HD optical media.

With all due respect to Amir and Kosty, this sounds like marketing spin to tell me that the competition with BD didn't spur high quality.


I could easily make the same arguments for BD, whose cost will go down with time.


I will never believe it wasn't the desire to crush BD out of the gate that spurred the quality of initial releases.
 
#264 ·

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Originally Posted by theforce8686 /forum/post/0


The original point of my original post when I started this thread was that I was tired of hearing every HD owner complain about Sony and Fox and Disney etc,etc holding us hostage. If infact Universal went neutral or to BD this War is over. Cut and Dry, no argument. They are the lone exclusive studio for HD (Please dont say Porn and Anime will keep HD alive) If they caved tomorrow then all studios could really start pushing one format and we would all have a chance of enjoying all studios and cheaper players and movies as more would be produced as more people got involved. That cant happen unless many, many more studios and companies switch to HD and we know that probably isnt gonna happen and if it does it will be a long, long time.

If that's the basis of your argument, then why doesn't Sony and its studios "cave" and clear the way for one format--HD DVD?
 
#265 ·

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If they caved tomorrow then all studios could really start pushing one format and we would all have a chance of enjoying all studios and cheaper players and movies as more would be produced as more people got involved.

Just out of curiosity if, as the BR faithful like to remind everyone, have all the studios AND all the CE's, why haven't prices come down to a respectable Joe Consumer level on the BD side yet? All the competition for players on Blu-ray, and $799 is the best Samsung can do, and $1,499 is the only Pioneer player you can get?


All those people involved already, and it's still really expensive. Hmmmmmmmm.
 
#266 ·

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Originally Posted by Michael Mullis /forum/post/0


Just out of curiosity if, as the BR faithful like to remind everyone, have all the studios AND all the CE's, why haven't prices come down to a respectable Joe Consumer level on the BD side yet? All the competition for players on Blu-ray, and $799 is the best Samsung can do, and $1,499 is the only Pioneer player you can get?


All those people involved already, and it's still really expensive. Hmmmmmmmm.

I've mentioned several times that the amount Sony is losing per PS3 doesn't jive with the high cost of the standalone players. Someone's getting some profit. Granted, volume on PS3 will be much higher, but you could easily create more BD volume by lowering prices.


My guess? "Raping" the early adopters who won't buy a PS3 "just because" and relying on the SD DVD market for Joe Blow's money. Lets face it, most regular guys aren't ready to split for the cash for HD DVD discs much less BDs when the DVD is sitting on the shelf for $5-10 less than the HD DVD or BD.
 
#267 ·

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Originally Posted by SamwisetheBrave /forum/post/0


If that's the basis of your argument, then why doesn't Sony and its studios "cave" and clear the way for one format--HD DVD?

Devil's advocate, but wouldn't it make more sense for Tosh, Uni, and MS to cave? Aren't we talking about basically 3 against the rest with Para, WB, and NL sitting this one out?
 
#268 ·

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.... is losing per PS3 doesn't jive with the high cost of ....

I was hoping this thread would scroll off so I wouldn't have to see Who's spelt as Whose (thread title)

Also tired of seeing "jive" when the word is "jibe". The closest meaning of jive is "mislead" which is the opposite of what is meant: "align"

Getting old and cranky
 
#269 ·

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Originally Posted by WayneL /forum/post/0


I was hoping this thread would scroll off so I wouldn't have to see Who's spelt as Whose (thread title)

Also tired of seeing "jive" when the word is "jibe". The closest meaning of jive is "mislead" which is the opposite of what is meant: "align"

Getting old and cranky

Completely off topic but this kind of thing is one of my pet peeves as well however I wasn't familiar with that one. I usually say jive myself. I'll have to add it to my pet peeve list along with using "mute" instead of "moot" (the one I hate most) and "chomping at the bit" when the word is "champing". Your and you're are up there was well.
 
#270 ·

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Originally Posted by Sisko197 /forum/post/0


I also disagree with the cost argument. The PS3 hits the 500 mark the same as Toshiba's lowest cost player. No other HD DVD player has been announced to be hitting for less.


Hm.

Hmm, any reason why you say "toshiba" in order to leave out the Xbox add-on for only $199?



Let's not forget it works on all Xbox's that poeple already own, as well as on PCs that people already own also...
 
#271 ·

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Originally Posted by kjtatum /forum/post/0


Devil's advocate, but wouldn't it make more sense for Tosh, Uni, and MS to cave? Aren't we talking about basically 3 against the rest with Para, WB, and NL sitting this one out?

If so, why didn't England just "cave" in WWII?
 
#272 ·

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Originally Posted by Michael Mullis /forum/post/0


Just out of curiosity if, as the BR faithful like to remind everyone, have all the studios AND all the CE's, why haven't prices come down to a respectable Joe Consumer level on the BD side yet? All the competition for players on Blu-ray, and $799 is the best Samsung can do, and $1,499 is the only Pioneer player you can get?


All those people involved already, and it's still really expensive. Hmmmmmmmm.

Probably because of the massive R&D costs. BD would have cost far more to develop than HD-DVD (disk structure, optics, hard coat, replication lines, rom mark, recorders etc.)

Short term pain for long term gain! Just don't be an early adopter, wait it out with upscaled DVD and reap the rewards of a superior format in a years time. Patience is free
 
#274 ·

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Originally Posted by WayneL /forum/post/0


I was hoping this thread would scroll off so I wouldn't have to see Who's spelt as Whose (thread title)

Also tired of seeing "jive" when the word is "jibe". The closest meaning of jive is "mislead" which is the opposite of what is meant: "align"

Getting old and cranky

Well, I guess I can bring this thread full circle: Dictionary Nazis.


I assure you my writing isn't that atrocious.
 
#275 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneL /forum/post/0


I was hoping this thread would scroll off so I wouldn't have to see Who's spelt as Whose (thread title)

Also tired of seeing "jive" when the word is "jibe". The closest meaning of jive is "mislead" which is the opposite of what is meant: "align"

Getting old and cranky

This thread will never die. It is a good one. The longest thread Ive seen that hasnt been closed due to stupidity.


P.S. Whose the one who started this thread anyway? Lol
 
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