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post #1 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Many people here say its sony whose forcing stuff down our throat and holding us hostage. Youve got it backwards. It is Toshiba and Universal who are causing and prolonging this war. It is obvious that most Studios and Manufacturers want Blu Ray to be the format of the future as they picked it first and have firmly stuck with it. So why is Universal and Toshiba being stubborn and making this "war" go on longer than it should? They can end the war any day they want and we can all enjoy one format and we can begin Mass adoption.
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post #2 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 10:33 PM
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What makes you think they picked BD first? From what I've heard, at least Warner and probably the rest of the studios were originally HD-DVD exclusive until Sony ponied up and decided to put a BD player in their PS3. That was the decision that led to the neutral studios going neutral and the BD exclusive studios going exclusive.

And what's your definition of "mass adoption"? The number of BD standalone players sold compared to HD-DVD stand alone players tells the story of "mass" adoption, and it sure isn't in BD's favor. So if it's mass adoption you want to enjoy, it doesn't look like it's going to be brought about by BD stand alone players.
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post #3 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 10:54 PM
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A million+ BD players in homes isn't "mass adoption" to you? Wow.

Yes, it's true, Universal and Toshiba are the primary companies keeping this format war going, and for the J6P consumer caught in the middle it's likely keeping them from diving in and buying into HD movie discs. Sales of HD movies and players would likely be much higher if Toshiba/Universal gave it up.

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post #4 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:01 PM
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Yep, this format war is straining the entire HD movement. It's awful. BD's got the momentum. I'm sure Toshiba could profit from making BD players and Universal on software.
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post #5 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkedgex View Post

A million+ BD players in homes isn't "mass adoption" to you? Wow.

Yes, it's true, Universal and Toshiba are the primary companies keeping this format war going, and for the J6P consumer caught in the middle it's likely keeping them from diving in and buying into HD movie discs. Sales of HD movies and players would likely be much higher if Toshiba/Universal gave it up.


You think those "million+ BD players" you're talking about got in peoples homes because they couldn't wait for X-Men: III, or MGS4? There are stand alone players, and there are game consoles, and while they interlap in the PS3, ignoring the difference only affects your comprehension of reality.

But to further answer the question, to me it's obvious that the $1000+ price tag of BD stand alone players is doing much more to hurt BD mass adoption then Universal and Toshiba.
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post #6 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theforce8686 View Post

Many people here say its sony whose forcing stuff down our throat and holding us hostage. Youve got it backwards. It is Toshiba and Universal who are causing and prolonging this war. It is obvious that most Studios and Manufacturers want Blu Ray to be the format of the future as they picked it first and have firmly stuck with it. So why is Universal and Toshiba being stubborn and making this "war" go on longer than it should? They can end the war any day they want and we can all enjoy one format and we can begin Mass adoption.

Oh good lord , you make it sound like Universal and Toshiba are the only people in the DVD forum who support HD DVD. You can't expect Toshiba to just give up and say oh well, some more studios are supporting BD, looks like we're toast . In terms of Studio wise, FOX, Sony, Disney, Lionsgate and Universal are ALL holding us hostage. True nuetrality would put an end to the war mighty quick.
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post #7 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:08 PM
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No one is pushing HD-DVD as hard as Microsoft. Even though Toshiba and Universal seem to be often "front and center", it definitely feels like Microsoft is the one behind the scenes that is cutting the deals and pushing them all forward. Universal seems a reluctant champion of the format at best. Then we see things like where Meridian is literallly shoved into issuing press releases by Microsoft, and Microsoft working on reference designs to pull in low-cost Chinese manufacturers, and the constant & aggressive jingoism of MSFT representatives on the internet, its pretty clear to be where the force behind the HD-DVD/Blu Ray wedge comes from. Redmond, WA.

I'm not clear on why exactly MSFT has as much sway over Toshiba as they do, but I'm sure the information is out there somewhere...
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post #8 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

No one is pushing HD-DVD as hard as Microsoft.

Now that is a fact. Right here, right now even. What is MS's agenda? To push the 360 and its successor as the only game/media system in homes I believe, with only hddvd as the media.

The amount of spam we get from MS on this forum makes no sense to me, other than it's very important to them.
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post #9 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

No one is pushing HD-DVD as hard as Microsoft. Even though Toshiba and Universal seem to be often "front and center", it definitely feels like Microsoft is the one behind the scenes that is cutting the deals and pushing them all forward. Universal seems a reluctant champion of the format at best. Then we see things like where Meridian is literallly shoved into issuing press releases by Microsoft, and Microsoft working on reference designs to pull in low-cost Chinese manufacturers, and the constant & aggressive jingoism of MSFT representatives on the internet, its pretty clear to be where the force behind the HD-DVD/Blu Ray wedge comes from. Redmond, WA.

I'm not clear on why exactly MSFT has as much sway over Toshiba as they do, but I'm sure the information is out there somewhere...

How exactly does MS's involvement in HD-DVD speak to them "holding sway" over Toshiba, as you say? That's a very strange conclusion to make.

It's no secret to anyone paying even a tiny amount of attention that MS is in it to make sure their VC-1 and HDi properties gain dominance. I mean, how is that not obvious to anyone who spends any time on this forum?
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post #10 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:15 PM
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VC-1 and HDi are too small potatoes for the amount of effort going on. There's something else to it. I wish an 'insider' would actually provide some information and tell us what.
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post #11 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

VC-1 and HDi are too small potatoes for the amount of effort going on. There's something else to it. I wish an 'insider' would actually provide some information and tell us what.

From what position of knowledge in the industry do you call them small potatoes?

When people talk about downloading being the future, what do you think that means? Content has to be encoded to be broadcast, which is where VC-1 comes in. A very efficient codec designed from the ground up for HD video in low bit-rate applications. And for IPTV, with the UI and interactivity and everything that goes in to making it possible and something that is easy to use for the average consumer, that's where HDi comes into play. So obviously aspects of what will one day replace broadcast TV as we know it today is the last thing that should be called "small potatoes".

And MS is just using HD-DVD as a proving grounds for their tech, in the hopes that it will gain market acceptance and be used in the future download and IPTV markets.
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post #12 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:26 PM
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BD also supports VC-1 as well though, why don't they support BD?

That leaves just HDi. I really have a hard time believing they'd go through all this for just one scripting language.
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post #13 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

BD also supports VC-1 as well though, why don't they support BD?

That leaves just HDi. I really have a hard time believing they'd go through all this for just one scripting language.

You weren't around for these discussions I guess. Though the fact that the only VC-1 BDs are direct ports of Warner titles should tell you something. Back when the BD spec was about to be finalized, the BDA were just about to leave VC-1 support out of it, but several companies fought hard for it, and it was added at the last minute. That was probably one reason why most of the BD players were delayed so long. But since there is not a one BD exclusive studio using VC-1 on BD, the fact that you could dismiss VC-1 as a major reason for MS's support of HD-DVD is puzzling. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time if discussing the matter with you...
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post #14 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:51 PM
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The MSFT relationship here is sort of non-obvious, but it's interesting that Bill Gates said both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc were the last optical technology, and that downloaded content would be the way of the future. In a way, by forcing this format war forward, MSFT is effectively ensuring neither format wins, and we get to move on to downloaded content even faster (which would be lucrative for MSFT I'm sure, more lucrative than hardware and software using VC-1).

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post #15 of 322 Old 01-14-2007, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by darkedgex View Post

The MSFT relationship here is sort of non-obvious, but it's interesting that Bill Gates said both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc were the last optical technology

Do you think they will not be the last optical technology? I am pretty positive I won't want to put up with another cycle like this one, a decade from now.

What else is there to offer consumers anyway for the next format? We have hard enough time getting to buy into something that has 6X the resolution. You think there will be another carrot that is better than this a decade from now?

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post #16 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:00 AM
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Do you think they will not be the last optical technology? I am pretty positive I won't want to put up with another cycle like this one, a decade from now.

You mean you're not currently grooming your son to continue the war of words with Talks son when the next optical format war comes around?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What else is there to offer consumers anyway for the next format? We have hard enough time getting to buy into something that has 6X the resolution. You think there will be another carrot that is better than this a decade from now?

Exactly. What else can an optical disk provide us that would be worth starting a whole new format, that we don't already get from these two?
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post #17 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:02 AM
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Capek, you remind me of that patent guy in the 1800's that said everything that needs to be invented already has been. So short sighted.

3d video on a DLP in higher resolution than 1080p in 10 years is a possibility that may need a terabyte.
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post #18 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

No one is pushing HD-DVD as hard as Microsoft. Even though Toshiba and Universal seem to be often "front and center", it definitely feels like Microsoft is the one behind the scenes that is cutting the deals and pushing them all forward. Universal seems a reluctant champion of the format at best. Then we see things like where Meridian is literallly shoved into issuing press releases by Microsoft, and Microsoft working on reference designs to pull in low-cost Chinese manufacturers, and the constant & aggressive jingoism of MSFT representatives on the internet, its pretty clear to be where the force behind the HD-DVD/Blu Ray wedge comes from. Redmond, WA.

I'm not clear on why exactly MSFT has as much sway over Toshiba as they do, but I'm sure the information is out there somewhere...

The most insightful and probably accurate read on the status of things in "HD-DVD" land that I have seen in a loooog time...

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post #19 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by darkedgex View Post

The MSFT relationship here is sort of non-obvious, but it's interesting that Bill Gates said both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc were the last optical technology, and that downloaded content would be the way of the future. In a way, by forcing this format war forward, MSFT is effectively ensuring neither format wins, and we get to move on to downloaded content even faster (which would be lucrative for MSFT I'm sure, more lucrative than hardware and software using VC-1).

Such an outcome would play right into Microsoft's only strength i.e. software, comparatively speaking. Perhaps it is a case of software getting sick of being dictated by hardware, a middle finger to CE makers. Who needs hardware afterall, in a world called Microsoft?
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post #20 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

Capek, you remind me of that patent guy in the 1800's that said everything that needs to be invented already has been. So short sighted.

3d video on a DLP in higher resolution than 1080p in 10 years is a possibility that may need a terabyte.

If you don't have the character to challenge a man's ideas, you attack his character, isn't that right Monty. Enjoy your day dreams.
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post #21 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:09 AM
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Yawn... Can I have my 90 seconds back?
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post #22 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:18 AM
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I wasn't really attacking your character. I was attacking the short sightedness of saying that there's no use of any larger capacity disc formats down the road. Those are your ideas, and I was challenging them.
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post #23 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by onanie View Post

Such an outcome would play right into Microsoft's only strength i.e. software, comparatively speaking. Perhaps it is a case of software getting sick of being dictated by hardware, a middle finger to CE makers. Who needs hardware afterall, in a world called Microsoft?

That's a good point. I'd almost say its a paranoid sort of scenario, but certainly Microsoft, as a company mostly entrenched in non-fixed-function hardware (PCs), not having a stable long-term fixed-function hardware platform dominated by Japanese consumer electronics firm certainly wouldn't hurt. If more people had to turn to Home Theater PCs, they win.

The Audio industry botched the transition from CD to next-generation audio formats BADLY, and Apple was the beneficiary. Perhaps MSFT thinks they can position themselves to pick up the pieces (XB360, downloadable HD movies, VC-1) once the smoke clears on a failed transition to next-generation video discs.

Evil, but plausible.
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post #24 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 05:34 AM
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Many people here say its sony whose forcing stuff down our throat and holding us hostage. Youve got it backwards. It is Toshiba and Universal who are causing and prolonging this war. It is obvious that most Studios and Manufacturers want Blu Ray to be the format of the future as they picked it first and have firmly stuck with it. So why is Universal and Toshiba being stubborn and making this "war" go on longer than it should? They can end the war any day they want and we can all enjoy one format and we can begin Mass adoption.

By your reckoning, the war should've ended in the summer. Toshiba had the fantastic PQ, cheap players, great customer service. Blu-ray didn't give up then, deciding in turn to hold us "hostage", as you say. So there is no reason for HD DVD to back down. Momentum can shift back and forth. There are no givens here.
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post #25 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by theforce8686 View Post

Many people here say its sony whose forcing stuff down our throat and holding us hostage. Youve got it backwards. It is Toshiba and Universal who are causing and prolonging this war. It is obvious that most Studios and Manufacturers want Blu Ray to be the format of the future as they picked it first and have firmly stuck with it. So why is Universal and Toshiba being stubborn and making this "war" go on longer than it should? They can end the war any day they want and we can all enjoy one format and we can begin Mass adoption.


What good can possibly come out of this thread? why do u guys like to start arguments? Haven't we all read enough already? Are you not bored yet?
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post #26 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shiftV View Post

What good can possibly come out of this thread? why do u guys like to start arguments? Haven't we all read enough already? Are you not bored yet?

Unfortunately ever since CES the Blu-Ray fanbois (not calling everyone a fanboi, just some very vocal supporters of the Blu-Ray side) have been trolling like crazy, it's best not to feed them
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post #27 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 06:20 AM
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The fanboys are amazing. Having sprent a couple hours talking to the BD insiders at CES, in private and honest discussions, they are not as positive as the fanboys are. Truely amazing.
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post #28 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 06:24 AM
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Oh yeah, and the hddvd fanboys are so modest and realistic.

Sigh.. I haven't 'sprent' a couple hours with BD insiders, but I'm sure you can elaborate?
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post #29 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty22001 View Post

Oh yeah, and the hddvd fanboys are so modest and realistic.

Sigh.. I haven't 'sprent' a couple hours with BD insiders, but I'm sure you can elaborate?

there are fanbois on both sides of the fence. It is just that after CES 2007 the blu-bois have been crawling out of the woodworks and lording every little release that BD is making over the HD DVD crowd.
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post #30 of 322 Old 01-15-2007, 06:30 AM
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Frankly, I think the release schedule is a huge deal, so I can't blame them. As long as the schedules stay the same (and are accurate), I think the format war is looking a bit easier to go to blu-ray.

I see far more hddvd fanbois polluting the BD forums than the other way, that's for sure. This neutral area seems pretty even.
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