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post #2071 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Thanks for the link Jimmy (it helped with a different issue).

I'm not sure what Panny is trying to say there (looks like an American marketing type didn't quite understand what the Japanese engineers were saying).

It looks like what they are saying is that the data transfer process has to be twice as fast as before.

However, their illustration is flawed as they show twice as many steps for the 2D image. Also the sunset images don't look any different (at least on my 17" laptop that has a calibrated display).

As for the statement:
Pure marketing BS! (I suspect that was something lifter from the Deep Color/xvYcc section.)

OK, thanks Dave, the images looked the same to me also. I don't know if I should be glad the link helped in the other discussion. I haven't placed my money yet on you, Lee or DaVid. LOL
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post #2072 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

I don't know if I should be glad the link helped in the other discussion. I haven't placed my money yet on you, Lee or DaVid. LOL

Didn't mean to drag you into that (but put your money on me and DaVid).

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post #2073 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Didn't mean to drag you into that (but put your money on me and DaVid).

No way! I'm staying out of it. I've already ruffled the feathers of another calibrator on another thread because I tend to do just what you and the guys on here are doing. At least you three don't seemed threatened by each other's knowledge. Just good discussion. Thanks for it all!
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post #2074 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 03:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

First: PDPs use phosphors. Phosphors have an inherent decay time. That is not speculation.

Second: thanks to the link that Jimmy just provided
you will see where Panasonic themselves talked about the decay time (look about half-way down the page).

So much for:

The speculation is if the changes Panasonic made sufficiently reduce the decay time?

The response time for a PDP is approx .0001 MS as opposed to 4 MS for a LCD.

And Panasonic has said that they changed the phosphors for their 3DTVs to improve in the decay time - but YOU don't believe them. Just like you didn't believe the picture I showed you of the back of their BDT350 3D BD player.

You STILL listed decay time as a potential negative but you DIDN'T list response time as a negative for LCDs.

Quote:


Notes:
  • They didn't plot decay time of blue (wonder if they couldn't find a suitable blue phosphor with reduced decay time or if it there isn't a problem with blue - whichever is SPECULATION)
  • The Green phosphor has not been improved as much as Red. In fact, it's decay now seems more "dragged out" than the original Green. Plus there are some interesting looking "spikes" of significant amplitude right where (in time) the old Green phosphor decayed out. At one point, the luminescence is twice what old Green was!
  • The eye is more sensitive to Green than any color - so decay issues with Green will be more visible.
So it IS SPECULATION if the "improvements" that Panny made are sufficient to eliminate cross talk.

One last observation from those curves: It appears that the peak Green luminescence is lower than with the old phosphor. This MIGHT not be a problem, as plasmas usually ran out of Red first (on 100IRE patterns) - but it does reinforce my earlier questions about the "trade-offs" with the new phosphors.

Boy Lee, you sure are drinking the Panasonic Kool-aid!

(But full disclosure: I generally recommend Panasonic plasmas to my customers - but I don't drink their Kool-aid! )

I am going on eye witness accounts of Panasonic 3D demo's. What are YOU going on? Gut feeling? FUD? (as in the photo I posted of the back of the Panasonic 3D BD player which you STILL don't believe)
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post #2075 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 04:51 PM
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3D TV technology that does not require the goofy glasses used in cinemas...:

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20100226-25533.html
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post #2076 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

And Panasonic has said that they changed the phosphors for their 3DTVs to improve in the decay time - but YOU don't believe them.

It's not that I don't believe that they improved the decay time - I am questioning if the improvement is sufficient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Just like you didn't believe the picture I showed you of the back of their BDT350 3D BD player.

This is a perfect illustration of the difficulty many of us have communicating with you. You just totally ignore perfectly rational posts that disagree with your particular point view.

In the case of the BD350 player, I never doubted that the player had two HDMI outputs. The existance of two outputs does not prove that one output is uniquely different than the other. As I said:

Quote:


But the ONLY DIFFERENCE in the labels is that one is labeled "Main" and the other "Sub". Both are labeled "AV Out". IF one was for Audio and the other was for Video you would think that they both wouldn't be labeled "AV OUT" (wouldn't you?).

But, you are right:

Seeing is believing!

Or is it See what you want to believe ?

Looks like it is the latter (as it all too often is).

Look Lee, this dialog is no longer helpful to anyone. Id hit the IGNORE button as others have suggested, but you do, at times, post interesting links - so I'll just respond to your BS comments with a "BS" in the future.

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post #2077 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armand07 View Post

3D TV technology that does not require the goofy glasses used in cinemas...:

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20100226-25533.html

What happens when you want to watch HDTV?

Stumbling block for Autostereoscopic displays.
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post #2078 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Id hit the IGNORE button as others have suggested, but you do, at times, post interesting links - so I'll just respond to your BS comments with a "BS" in the future.

Dave, please tell me where this IGNORE button is I need to use it on another thread!LOL
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post #2079 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

Dave, please tell me where this IGNORE button is I need to use it on another thread!LOL

It's a figure of speech, but I believe that it used to exist in an earlier version of this site. Maybe someone else knows more about it.

EDIT: Ah, I found it! It DOES exist:

Click on name of person you want to IGNORE.
Then select "View Public Profile"
In that profile click on "User List" (drop down menu)
Click on "Add to Ignore List"

I've never actually used it, but I believe that you won't receive notifications of posts by the person that you are ignoring.

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post #2080 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 06:05 PM
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It doesn't eject them from their computer? Not interested then.
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post #2081 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armand07 View Post

3D TV technology that does not require the goofy glasses used in cinemas...:

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20100226-25533.html

You *always* need to read the fine print with these so-called "no glasses" 3D TVs before posting the link as if a new technological breakthrough is about to happen. Bottom line: this is nothing new, and it's a compromised 3D experience and in NO WAY a replacement for real stereoscopic vision. In fact, it merely places z-depth information over a single 2D image which is basically a recipe for the classic "card board cut out" 3D effect everyone hates. This is very much like Philip's 3D autoscopic technology that's more or less been brushed under the rug the past year or so.

From that article:

Quote:


The firm's software mimics the use of separate cameras to turn a 2D image into 16 separate pictures that each appear to be from a slightly different angle. All 16 images are then shown together on an LCD screen coated with a special transparent foil – patented by the firm – that separates the images so that the left and right eyes see slightly different perspectives, tricking the brain into perceiving depth.

Schütten’s technology creates what he calls a “pop-out” effect in which objects appear to project up to one metre in front of the screen, unlike the technique used by films such as "Avatar," in which the 3D effect seems to take place behind the screen.

As with all autoscopic 3D displays thus far, this one sounds like it will probably artifact really badly when you move your head.

The fact that it appears to only project 3D out of the screen rather than real depth is another sad compromise.

Everyone should be aware that this type of display isn't able to display real stereoscopic images... it uses a single 2D image + 16-level z axis tag to basically give you a 16-layer cardboard-cutout popout.

That's not the 3D we're talking about in this thread.

Now... if they could develop an autoscopic 3D display that actually had the natural depth of real stereo vision, that would be something to post about.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #2082 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Now... if they could develop an autoscopic 3D display that actually had the natural depth of real stereo vision, that would be something to post about.

That would be a holograph ---- but lots of issues there too.

We all can keep dreaming.

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post #2083 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

As with all autoscopic 3D displays thus far, this one sounds like it will probably artifact really badly when you move your head.

The fact that it appears to only project 3D out of the screen rather than real depth is another sad compromise.

Everyone should be aware that this type of display isn't able to display real stereoscopic images... it uses a single 2D image + 16-level z axis tag to basically give you a 16-layer cardboard-cutout popout.

That's not the 3D we're talking about in this thread.

Now... if they could develop an autoscopic 3D display that actually had the natural depth of real stereo vision, that would be something to post about.

How do you know it uses a 16 level z axis?
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post #2084 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 07:06 PM
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The following article kind of goes all over the place, but it does have a summary of what DirecTV, ESPN & Discover will be doing & when.

The 3D TV Channels are Coming, When and What to Expect From Them

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post #2085 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 09:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

How do you know it uses a 16 level z axis?

From the link:

Quote:


The firm's software mimics the use of separate cameras to turn a 2D image into 16 separate pictures that each appear to be from a slightly different angle. All 16 images are then shown together on an LCD screen coated with a special transparent foil - patented by the firm - that separates the images so that the left and right eyes see slightly different perspectives, tricking the brain into perceiving depth.

It is really 16 views. The Philips Auto 3D was 9 views:

http://www.focusedtechnology.com/phi...23d6w0200.html

They are no longer persuing Auto 3D

At CeBit next week there will be a demo of an Auto 3D display using 64 views

S3D = 2 views, L & R
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post #2086 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

From the link:



It is really 16 views. The Philips Auto 3D was 9 views:

http://www.focusedtechnology.com/phi...23d6w0200.html

They are no longer persuing Auto 3D

At CeBit next week there will be a demo of an Auto 3D display using 64 views

S3D = 2 views, L & R

Yes, 16 separate images (views) but it doesn't say that it's Z depth is only 16 levels (the Philips 2D+depth format uses 256 levels). Even though I think a TV with >=16 layers of screen would be quite good actually - better in some ways than these normal multiview sets if it used a different encoding format.
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post #2087 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 09:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Yes, 16 separate images (views) but it doesn't say that it's Z depth is only 16 levels (the Philips 2D+depth format uses 256 levels). Even though I think a TV with >=16 layers of screen would be quite good actually - better in some ways than these normal multiview sets if it used a different encoding format.

Yes - the more views = the less of an issue head placement is. 8 definitely is not enough.

Again three main issues = resolution of the image you see, the inability to watch normal 2D TV and of course, the price.
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post #2088 of 2161 Old 02-26-2010, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Yes - the more views = the less of an issue head placement is. 8 definitely is not enough.

Again three main issues = resolution of the image you see, the inability to watch normal 2D TV and of course, the price.

Well they could convert the 2D TV to their 3D format.

By I think the main issues are:
* Nobody as far as I know uses anything more than stereoscopic at the capture stage for real footage for 3D yet (though they do for those timeslice/Matrix-type effects) so they'd use interpolation/"generate" the views from their 3D format.
* I don't think they've rendered any full CGI film at anything more than stereoscopic (eg. 9 or 64 views).
* One 2D video+256 shades of depth (that the Philips one and probably others use) isn't enough to encode what would really be seen from 9 or 64 or even 2 (stereoscopic) viewpoints.
* Unlike other types of 3D like the hologram type it doesn't generate a 3d image with actual depth.
* Bandwidth/bitrate that would be required to really store many viewpoint '3d' accurately
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post #2089 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Yes, 16 separate images (views) but it doesn't say that it's Z depth is only 16 levels (the Philips 2D+depth format uses 256 levels). Even though I think a TV with >=16 layers of screen would be quite good actually - better in some ways than these normal multiview sets if it used a different encoding format.

The z-axis term is my assumption based on their description of taking a 2D image and then coming up with 16 discrete depth-producing "pictures". I doubt that this article is very technically worded, and it sounds like they're describing a depth-labeling system though I could be wrong.

In any case, it's not *real* 3D with only 16 levels as real stereo vision is continuous depth.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #2090 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armand07 View Post

3D TV technology that does not require the goofy glasses used in cinemas...:

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20100226-25533.html

As many have pointed out this isn't ready for prime time yet. But you can bet the CEMs are working overtime to make it happen because glasses are the main complaint of current 3D tech. Competition will drive improved versions to market.
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post #2091 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 09:30 AM
 
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We have a first impression of someone who went to a Sony Style Store to see their new 3D demo. He is a very knowledgeable person when it comes to CE products and HT.

Here are his observations:

My impressions:

Quote:

It was a demo disc (apparently) running on Blu-ray as far as I could tell and some shutter glasses.

Nobody was waiting to try it out as well, so I got to sit down and watch their canned clips of Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs in 3D, which I had also seen in the theater with my son in 3D. Intermittently they had a Sony starfield logo pop up with a ton of 3D put in.


There were four things I can say that I really noticed that mattered...

1. The colors were amazing. None of the junk with old red/green glasses. This was the polarized full color effect we maintain in theaters, except with shutter glasses. The colors popped and allowed for the vibrance of that film to shine through with excellence. Since this has been one of the biggest issues with lousy 3D at home, it was great to see it overcome.

2. The depth was what it should be. With 3D kicked in, you got an immediate immersion into the 3D that the movie presented. It was very satisfying to see the effect properly recreated on a 55" (or so) LCD display.

3. The shutter glasses had noticable flicker. Period. I'm not sure if this would cause me headaches. I'm NOT sure if they were operating at 120hz, or if this mock up was only running at 60hz, but the flicker from the LCD glasses was definitely there. I put my finger over the IR sensor which maintained timing and saw the shutters go WAY out of sequence before turning off completely (clear). It was interesting to see how quickly and accurately they restored their proper timing, but it still had noticably flicker.

4. The image dimmed, quite clearly, by 50%. While LCDs are still going to be great with this technology, especially with after dark viewing, the front projectors are going to need to pump out a few more lumens to maintain 100"-110" screen sizes (typical) and keep their punch.

Overall, while I was very happy with what I saw, the flicker was my big concern and I am going to wait to buy in until the shutter speed increases enough to deal with it better. Obviously, if I was watching a 60hz demo, then we may get an immediate jump with the actual technology at 120hz. It may take 240hz to really work to eliminate it though. We'll see. But, it was very cool to see a nice display properly render 3D with some lightweigh glasses which took care of the necessary 3D effect.

According to this link, he should have been watching the BRAVIA XBR-52LX900 which is a 240Hz 3DTV

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/56605.html

So the flicker issue is a bit puzzling
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post #2092 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geister View Post

As many have pointed out this isn't ready for prime time yet. But you can bet the CEMs are working overtime to make it happen because glasses are the main complaint of current 3D tech. Competition will drive improved versions to market.

Are you sure the glasses are the main complaint? I think we have a perceived notion that the glasses are not going to go over well. Those going to the movie houses haven't been dissuaded from choosing the 3D version of films. We won't know for sure about TV until this technology gets out there in greater numbers. The main complaint about 3D TV may be a dark picture or a perception of flicker to some with eye/glasses problem. I tend to agree with you though that the glasses are not going to be generally liked.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

Are you sure the glasses are the main complaint? I think we have a perceived notion that the glasses are not going to go over well. Those going to the movie houses haven't been dissuaded from choosing the 3D version of films. We won't know for sure about TV until this technology gets out there in greater numbers. The main complaint about 3D TV may be a dark picture or a perception of flicker to some with eye/glasses problem. I tend to agree with you though that the glasses are not going to be generally liked.

The glasses issue:

1. The cut down on the brightness of the image severely
2. They are costly (ASG's)
3. If you wear glasses, you now have to wear two pair on your face
4. Dedicated viewing required - no casual viewing (multitasking)

By going to Auto 3D, all those issues dissappear.
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post #2094 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 12:31 PM
 
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I sent an email to Panasonic to ask for a clarification of the two different HDMI connections on the back of the BDT350 3D BD player. I sent it today and got a response back today (which is amazing)

RE: But I have questions about it [T20100227006LS010Z68359]

Thank you for your interest in Panasonic products.
The Panasonic DMP-BDT350 will allow you to send the high-bandwidth 3D video directly to the display (TV) and the audio directly to the AV receiver via HDMI on seperate connections, one of these connections will give you the option of HD Audio only, so you are correct on this issue.
Please check on our website www.panasonic.com for further updates and availability of these units We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting Panasonic.

On February 27, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Lee Stewart (edited - my email address went here - has my real name) wrote:

I have a question about the up and coming BDT350 3D Blu-ray player. On the back of the unit, there are two HDMI output connections labeled MAIN and SUB.. Is my understanding of the output of each correct?

MAIN = 3D Video + HD Audio

SUB = HD Audio (TrueHD, DTS-MA) only - no 3D Video

Thank you for your time and consideration in answering my question. I look forward to your response.
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post #2095 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

The glasses issue:

1. The cut down on the brightness of the image severely
2. They are costly (ASG's)
3. If you wear glasses, you now have to wear two pair on your face
4. Dedicated viewing required - no casual viewing (multitasking)

By going to Auto 3D, all those issues dissappear.

Yes, I agree these are very real issues. I'm just saying there is not any widespread input yet that the glasses are the "main" complaint. There is a perception by a probably small number of enthusiast that the glasses are going to be a problem. There is acknowledgment by an even smaller group of "hands on" reviewers, CES and such, the glasses "could be" a problem. We keep saying that the glasses are/is a big problem but we don't know that yet. I'm just saying glasses may not be the main complaint that keeps people from falling all over 3D. It could be other issues like "it really doesn't look like the 3D in movies, content or I have to have a 65" TV to see it. You know what I mean? I hope this doesn't sound like nit-picking. Glasses may end up being the main complaint.
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post #2096 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

Yes, I agree these are very real issues. I'm just saying there is not any widespread input yet that the glasses are the "main" complaint. There is a perception by a probably small number of enthusiast that the glasses are going to be a problem. There is acknowledgment by an even smaller group of "hands on" reviewers, CES and such, the glasses "could be" a problem. We keep saying that the glasses are/is a big problem but we don't know that yet. I'm just saying glasses may not be the main complaint that keeps people from falling all over 3D. It could be other issues like "it really doesn't look like the 3D in movies, content or I have to have a 65" TV to see it. You know what I mean? I hope this doesn't sound like nit-picking. Glasses may end up being the main complaint.

As I mentioned, watrching 3D video is going to be a totally different experience than any other before. That doesn't hold true when watching a 3D movie in a theater.

In a theater, the lights go down, we sit in the dark and all we do is sit there and experience the movie. No real difference then watching a 2D movie other than the glasses we have to wear.

But at home, we can:

1. Read something while watching TV
2. Make a meal/snack while watching TV
3. Check the program guide while watching TV
4. Watching two different programs at the same time (PIP)

It doesn't make a difference if the content is SD or HD. It's all 2D

You aren't going to be able to any of those things while watching 3D. You will have to pause the program.

The only way to experience high quality 3D today is to don the glasses

And home S3D will look just like the 3D people see in the theaters so that issue is a non-issue. It may even be better because of seating arrangements in the home versus catch as catch can in the theaters, unless you are willing to go real early to get a sweet spot seat. If you don't get one, the 3D experience may not be the best for you.

The size issue may also be a non-issue. Everyone knows that the larger your display, the more enjoyable the experience is - whether they are willing to admit that is another story. There will always be the WAF, wallet and room limitations to factor in.

The glasses become the main complaint because we have never had to wear special glasses to watch TV before. Only with 3D. And the media is aware that there is a technology that can display 3D in the home without glasses so they will highlight the glasses as a negative.

But they rarely ask or report which 3D looks better? Auto 3D or S3D.
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post #2097 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I sent an email to Panasonic to ask for a clarification of the two different HDMI connections on the back of the BDT350 3D BD player. I sent it today and got a response back today (which is amazing)

RE: But I have questions about it [T20100227006LS010Z68359]

Thank you for your interest in Panasonic products.
The Panasonic DMP-BDT350 will allow you to send the high-bandwidth 3D video directly to the display (TV) and the audio directly to the AV receiver via HDMI on seperate connections, one of these connections will give you the option of HD Audio only, so you are correct on this issue.
Please check on our website www.panasonic.com for further updates and availability of these units We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting Panasonic.

On February 27, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Lee Stewart (edited - my email address went here - has my real name) wrote:

I have a question about the up and coming BDT350 3D Blu-ray player. On the back of the unit, there are two HDMI output connections labeled MAIN and SUB.. Is my understanding of the output of each correct?

MAIN = 3D Video + HD Audio

SUB = HD Audio (TrueHD, DTS-MA) only - no 3D Video

Thank you for your time and consideration in answering my question. I look forward to your response.

It was quick because you didn't have a problem. They think you want to buy one. Some people are reporting the smaller VTs hitting ordering systems, as a bundle w/BD player. Would this be the player? My older yammy does not have HDMI. I use optical and it does a good job. I guess I will have to get a new recvr.
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Sony's 3D-ready Blu-ray players released into the retail wilderness

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/02/26/so...etail-wildern/
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post #2099 of 2161 Old 02-27-2010, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

As I mentioned, watrching 3D video is going to be a totally different experience than any other before. That doesn't hold true when watching a 3D movie in a theater.

In a theater, the lights go down, we sit in the dark and all we do is sit there and experience the movie. No real difference then watching a 2D movie other than the glasses we have to wear.

But at home, we can:

1. Read something while watching TV
2. Make a meal/snack while watching TV
3. Check the program guide while watching TV
4. Watching two different programs at the same time (PIP)

It doesn't make a difference if the content is SD or HD. It's all 2D

You aren't going to be able to any of those things while watching 3D. You will have to pause the program.

The only way to experience high quality 3D today is to don the glasses

And home S3D will look just like the 3D people see in the theaters so that issue is a non-issue. It may even be better because of seating arrangements in the home versus catch as catch can in the theaters, unless you are willing to go real early to get a sweet spot seat. If you don't get one, the 3D experience may not be the best for you.

The size issue may also be a non-issue. Everyone knows that the larger your display, the more enjoyable the experience is - whether they are willing to admit that is another story. There will always be the WAF, wallet and room limitations to factor in.

The glasses become the main complaint because we have never had to wear special glasses to watch TV before. Only with 3D. And the media is aware that there is a technology that can display 3D in the home without glasses so they will highlight the glasses as a negative.

But they rarely ask or report which 3D looks better? Auto 3D or S3D.

I understand, I used the same argument re LCD/LED. I told a friend, based on my own LED, that you had to be sitting down in front of it. No walking around in the kitchen trying to look at the TV in the Family Room. No standing up talking to your buddy on the cell phone talking about the ball game. So on and so on. I convinced him he may want to go pdp. But then again they were just my LCD/LED complaints.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

I understand, I used the same argument re LCD/LED. I told a friend, based on my own LED, that you had to be sitting down in front of it. No walking around in the kitchen trying to look at the TV in the Family Room. No standing up talking to your buddy on the cell phone talking about the ball game. So on and so on. I convinced him he may want to go pdp. But then again they were just my LCD/LED complaints.

That's another: "bone of contention" - when the discussion of LED/LCD TV's comes up. They are not all equal. There are the edge lit models and there are the "full array" models which differ in the precise control of the backlighting.
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