Nielsen/VideoScan sales ratios and Top 5 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 05:58 PM
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Guys can we stay on topic, it would not be cool if this thread was locked.
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post #182 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Either you underestimate it, and I am right, or I overestimate it, and I am wrong.

But, we'll just see what happens.

I did niether, so you are still wrong. You are correct, we shall see.....in the mean time, I'll enjoy both formats and support them equally, except for Fox.
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post #183 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

(And it's finance, not economics... you are aware that those are two different areas of focus, are you not?)

Actually it's marketing and finance...but who am I to butt in
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post #184 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Actually it's marketing and finance...but who am I to butt in

Hmmm... disagree with you. But who am I to disagree?
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post #185 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Hmmm... disagree with you. But who am I to disagree?

I liked that post.
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post #186 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:04 PM
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I liked that post.

I roll quick like that.
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post #187 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

How so ?

Well, the factual sales seem to be in line with the reports thrown in by some posters from several sources, like Amazon, BB and DVD Empire. To put 5 million on top of that would make a balance much MORE in favor of Blu Ray than just 2 to 1.
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post #188 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:05 PM
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According to Fox's prediction, we should be at less than 2:1 for Blu-ray:HD DVD. It appears they underestimated the adoption rate of PS3 owners.

if you look more closely (and at the BD and arrows) you will notice at

~100k you have 2:1 (HD DVD~ 50K)
~200K you have 3:1 (HD DVD~ 67k)
~250K you have 3.5:1 (HD DVD~ 71k)
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post #189 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

You can call me arrogant and this and that, but now that you're asking for a link to prove it, it just goes that much farther in proving my own point.

These are stats tracking film sales on both formats; why are game sales even a question here? Do DVD sales track video games on DVD? Or CD sales video games on CD?

Logic, Jim R, logic.

There is nothing on that graph that states movies only. You are making your own assumptions. However, if that is the reason that you believe they don't include games, you should have stated that to begin with instead of just insulting. You original post and the ones following that regarding this issue have done nothing but prove my point about your arrogance and imaturity and they are here for everyone to see for themselves.
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post #190 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:08 PM
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Finance, marketing, distribution, consumption.... I could go on all day here. But they're are all aspects of the economics.

You boys got to look at the bigger picture.
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post #191 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

I roll quick like that.

Hahahahha!!!!!
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post #192 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jim_r View Post

There is nothing on that graph that states movies only. You are making your own assumptions. However, if that is the reason that you believe they don't include games, you should have stated that to begin with instead of just insulting. You original post and the ones following that regarding this issue have done nothing but prove my point about your arrogance and imaturity and they are here for everyone to see for themselves.

Jim, ok whatever. I apologize to you if you felt attacked on a personal level. Maybe these figures may mean game sales included... I hope you get it sorted out. Maybe rdjam can create an article on hdnow exploring the "mystery" of these numbers, and the obvious BDA conspiracy behind them. For my part, I think it's obvious.
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post #193 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

Do educate me on the matter.

(And it's finance, not economics... you are aware that those are two different areas of study, are you not?)


Not to toot my own horn, but I own my own engineering firm and also graduated with a minor in Economics.
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post #194 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post

Finance, marketing, distribution, consumption.... I could go on all day here. But they're are all aspects of the economics.

You boys got to look at the bigger picture.

I'm sure you could go all day, but what I'd really prefer you do, is point out what aspect of my previous statement you disagreed with. And we can take it from there.
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post #195 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

You can call me arrogant and this and that, but now that you're asking for a link to prove it, it just goes that much farther in proving my own point.

These are stats tracking film sales on both formats; why are game sales even a question here? Do DVD sales track video games on DVD? Or CD sales video games on CD?

Logic, Jim R, logic.

Uh...there is information in one of the other threads which does in fact indicate that all BluRay discs are included in the calculation. So games are a part of the total discs sold..... Sorry if this deflates your balloon of happiness.

My Home Theater Site:

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post #196 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:18 PM
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Then if you go back to the same Home Media Magazine you'll see that none of the top 5 games sold were PS3 games. The top 4 were xbox 360.

maybe because there are many many more 360 out there
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post #197 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:19 PM
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There are several factors that explain why games aren't included in the data:

The main reason is that the homevideo and videogame industries are totally different. Each of those gets specific retail data based on the factual behavior of their markets. The Studios must get data which is only relevant to their market, like the videogame companies get data that concerns them alone. Moreover, data gathering/reporting and polling are specific to any industrial segment.

At the main retailers, the video and games sections are different. And if we move up in the ladder, each segment is controlled on a regional and national basis by different people. Key people, economics, business terms with publishers, etc... everything is specific for each industry.

UPC/EAN and cat numbers are also specific for the lines of products. Nielsen is certainly using those for their data gathering. If they got by accident some data coming from products of other segments, they'd detect it immediately.

And finally, I'm certain that both Nielsen and the retailers have fail-safe measures to prevent mismatch and errors. Any mistakes and gross miscalculations would be catastrophic for everyone, and they would have legal repercussions.
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post #198 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

I'm sure you could go all day, but what I'd really prefer you do, is point out what aspect of my previous statement you disagreed with. And we can take it from there.

It's really simple.

Sony sells the PS3 at a loss. While this is part of their model, they expect to turn a profit on game sales, not movies. If this were the case, dont' you think Sony would heavily subsidize standalone players?

If folks buy the PS3 for movies and not games, this will have a serious impact on Sony's model.

Check the latest reports on the web. There's a strong recommendation to "sell" Sony stock.
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post #199 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:19 PM
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...unless you were being ironic

Were you not entertained?
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post #200 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post

Not to toot my own horn, but I own my own engineering firm and also graduated with a minor in Economics.

Which explains why you thought it was a subset of economics rather than finance.

Not to toot my own horn, but I owned my own marketing firm for a while. So I assure you I'm up to the challenge if you wish to have it. In good spirits of course.
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post #201 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:22 PM
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Not to toot my own horn, but I owned my own marketing firm for a while. So I assure you I'm up to the challenge if you wish to have it. In good spirits of course.

I would have never pegged you as a marketing guy
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post #202 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipel View Post

Well, the factual sales seem to be in line with the reports thrown in by some posters from several sources, like Amazon, BB and DVD Empire. To put 5 million on top of that would make a balance much MORE in favor of Blu Ray than just 2 to 1.

That makes sense.

I wonder how Nielsen gets data. We know they don't get it off internet vendors or walmart. So in our case that leaves just BB / CC ?
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post #203 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post

It's really simple.

It's truly not that simple...

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Sony sells the PS3 at a loss. While this is part of their model, they expect to turn a profit on game sales, not movies. If this were the case, dont' you think Sony would heavily subsidize standalone players?

In the short term, they don't expect a profit at all, and where there most immediate concern is, is the format war. Pushing Blu-ray into the PS3 was a central part of this push, and it has ramifications across the entirety of Sony's BD strategy. Not only is there a player now on the market in volumes no other device can touch, but this same device (and its associated volumes) have driven Sony on the diode side to iron out their diode fabrication process in a manner that would have taken *much* much longer if not aided by the internal push generated by the PS3. The PS3 in turn suffered for its role in fast-forwarding the diode expertise, but it was a strategic risk taken.

Sony is unable to put out a subsidized standalone because unlike HD DVD, one of BD's present strengths is the coalition of CE manufacturers behind it. They are no doubt tolerent of the PS3 (to whatever extent that they are), because they understand that there is still a market among the high-end purchasers who will never consider a console as an option. They are able to compete and market as normal in this environment, as Sony competes with them in the expected fashion. Were Sony to subsidize a standalone, I think it would put the entire CE coalition at serious risk, as truly then there would be some resentment brewing.

Quote:


If folks buy the PS3 for movies and not games, this will have a serious impact on Sony's model.

As I said, this isn't the typical console model this go-around. PS3 will serve a dual purpose in the short term - indeed, BD is probably viewed as the more important of the two at the moment - and as time goes on, and 'real' games are released, it will settle into a more typical console model. As soon as BD player standalones reach price parity with PS3, it's role in the BD vanguard will have been served.

Quote:


Check the latest reports on the web. There's a strong recommendation to "sell" Sony stock.

I recommend all of my posts in the thread I am about to link to, but especially this one and the two posts that follow it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9642743

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Originally Posted by Sean_O View Post

I would have never pegged you as a marketing guy

Well that's because I'm also a technology guy.

My ever-present focus and passion...
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post #204 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

Uh...there is information in one of the other threads which does in fact indicate that all BluRay discs are included in the calculation. So games are a part of the total discs sold.....

Which other thread indicates that it includes games?

Is there anybody who believes that if games were included the numbers up until January 7th since inception would be:

BD 85.05, HD 100.00

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #205 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post

Not to toot my own horn, but I own my own engineering firm and also graduated with a minor in Economics.

Not to toot my own horn, but I have a degree in Economics from a Top 40 Business School, and what you were talking about is not Economics.
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post #206 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:40 PM
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1. IF PS3 is a game console then you need to make money by selling games. So far, it does not seem Sony is really doing that.

how do you know that. People have bought games and my guess they will buy many more. I don't think anyone in their right mind would expect a machine and 10 games being bought at the same time.

Quote:


2. IF the PS3 is a video player then Sony needs to make money off of the hardware, since the margin on BD movies are probably very slim - if any at all.

so how has/will Toshiba make the money back on the loss of their 500$ player?

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3. IF it is both. Then the subsidy on the player needs to be smaller than a game only device since it is expected that x% of consoles will be used primarily as a video player and hence will have a lower game attachment rate.

why. If a person would (coming out of the store with a PS3) buy two games but now he buys two games and three movies why is that bad for Sony? They are making MORE money not less
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post #207 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

It's truly not that simple...



In the short term, they don't expect a profit at all, and where there most immediate concern is, is the format war. Pushing Blu-ray into the PS3 was a central part of this push, and it has ramifications across the entirety of Sony's BD strategy. Not only is there a player now on the market in volumes no other device can touch, but this same device (and its associated volumes) have driven Sony on the diode side to iron out their diode fabrication process in a manner that would have taken *much* much longer if not aided by the internal push generated by the PS3. The PS3 in turn suffered for its role in fast-forwarding the diode expertise, but it was a strategic risk taken.

Sony is unable to put out a subsidized standalone because unlike HD DVD, one of BD's present strengths is the coalition of CE manufacturers behind it. They are no doubt tolerent of the PS3 (to whatever extent that they are), because they understand that there is still a market among the high-end purchasers who will never consider a console as an option. They are able to compete and market as normal in this environment, as Sony competes with them in the expected fashion. Were Sony to subsidize a standalone, I think it would put the entire CE coalition at serious risk, as truly then there would be some resentment brewing.



As I said, this isn't the typical console model this go-around. PS3 will serve a dual purpose in the short term - indeed, BD is probably viewed as the more important of the two at the moment - and as time goes on, and 'real' games are released, it will settle into a more typical console model. As soon as BD player standalones reach price parity with PS3, it's role in the BD vanguard will have been served.



I recommend all of my posts in the thread I am about to link to, but especially this one and the one that follows it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9642743



Well that's because I'm also a technology guy.

My ever-present focus and passion...

OK, you're right. It's not that simple.

While I agree with a lot of what you say here, I disagree with your view of the relative importance of the PS3/BD. I strongly believe Sony is first and foremost in a "gaming" war, BD is only a sideshow.

That said, I agree that Sony has got to be cute about who's (CE) toes they step on. While the outward appearance may look rosey, I'm sure there are a few CE's upset with the subsidization of the PS3. I believe Sony has been purposely limiting the PS3's movie features. It's current inability to upscale and lack of remote come to mind.
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post #208 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark0 View Post

OK, you're right. It's not that simple.

While I agree with a lot of what you say here, I disagree with your view of the relative importance of the PS3/BD. I strongly believe Sony is first and foremost in a "gaming" war, BD is only a sideshow.

Well, I don't know about that... and that's not to say I agree with the way they've approached it either - just saying that we won't really know how much this bundling cost them in the long-run until about December 07. By then we should have in focus if there was a price paid for the BD push, and how dear it was. Still though, I think Sony long-term views BD royalties as potentially much greater than one generation of much-reduced gaming profitability (if that indeed results).

Quote:


That said, I agree that Sony has got to be cute about who's (CE) toes they step on. While the outward appearance may look rosey, I'm sure there are a few CE's upset with the subsidization of the PS3. I believe Sony has been purposely limiting the PS3's movie features. It's current inability to upscale and lack of remote come to mind.

I would tend to agree, but I'm looking forward to March to see if any of that is addressed all the same.

Even as it is, I expect background algorithm updates to the code running on Cell for BD playback throughout the consoles life, which should keep it forever competetive in the PQ game.
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post #209 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Azumi View Post

I'm unable to tell you where I read it, but I did read that Nielsen extrapolates Wal-mart and Amazon results, and these figures are added to their data. And given Nielsen's longstanding reputation, they shouldn't be far off from the truth.

Nielsen's TV ratings data has long been questioned by the TV and cable outlets...in fact, some have jumped ship and gone to other suppliers for data. That's why they have been instituting a complete overhaul of their methodologies.

So any data one gets should be taken with a grain of salt.
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post #210 of 9375 Old 01-31-2007, 06:54 PM
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Are most PS3 games on BD's? I wonder if those videoscan numbers include those in BD sales.

no VS is point of sale not manufacturing or anything like that.
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