Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 2128 Old 04-29-2007, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

You don't know much about image processing, do you? Applying sharpening does not add noise or dither to the picture. It just brings them out more when they were already in the picture.
The level of detail in the MPEG2 and BR are about the same. The MPEG has a lot more ringing. The BR more visible noise after sharpening. Neither look as good as they should.

Perhaps you don't know much about PhotoShop

Using the "sharpen" filter and the add "noise filter" is what was done to the BD version of the 5th Element which was posted above. This is what created the grainy dithering effect, which is quite often used to create the perception of additional detail.
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post #392 of 2128 Old 04-29-2007, 07:42 PM
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The broadcast AVC of Fantastic 4 looks astonishingly better than the Blurayy version. Wonder what the BD folks will say about that one? No doubt, they'll load them into Photoshop again and post "revised versions" which prove that the BD version is really better
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post #393 of 2128 Old 04-29-2007, 08:28 PM
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Quote:


The broadcast AVC of Fantastic 4 looks astonishingly better than the Blurayy version

So you've seen both from start to finish with your own eyes, not just frame captures from worst case split second framegrabs

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post #394 of 2128 Old 04-29-2007, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Thank goodness that, when sufficiently blown up, there is no argument which one has more blocking.

Edit: But Hey! That eyebrow ain't perfect -- come-on Ben W can't we do better. Or was that an old version VC-1/PEP and the new versions do do better? With my magnifying glass 6" from the screen this stuff really bothers me.

Sure we can do better - the operator would throw up a region of interest on the area with blocking and given it a lower Max QP (capping how compressed those macroblocks can get).

Still a 200% blowup on a still frame isn't normally where they sweat their operator time .
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post #395 of 2128 Old 04-29-2007, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Perhaps you don't know much about PhotoShop

Using the "sharpen" filter and the add "noise filter" is what was done to the BD version of the 5th Element which was posted above. This is what created the grainy dithering effect, which is quite often used to create the perception of additional detail.

If you're really so confident of this why don't you post your own versions without the "noise filter" you're so sure I added?

You're confusing sharpened mpeg-2 artifacts with grain. Not a horrible mistake but why continue with this silliness without doing any research of your own?
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post #396 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

So you've seen both from start to finish with your own eyes, not just frame captures from worst case split second framegrabs

Oh please - save us the excuses and double talk.

The AVC broadcast version is clearly better. Go ahead and posts any captures from the film if you feel they show something different.

So you think the "best case" frames are going to show the Bluraay version as better than the AVC version when the worst case have already shown which one is better? Suit yourself We may as well not have a thread to compare them when we are told by some not to believe our own eyes
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post #397 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Man, that mpeg-2 encode of F4 just sucks. Should've used AVC and cranked that bitrate up. The space is certainly there.

I agree.

Just looking at MIII (21.50 GB) Blu-ray BD25, MPEG-2 can deliver the goods and can be as good as its VC-1 counterpart unfortunately someone decided that for Fantastic Four 4 17.60 GB is good enough. Well they are obviously wrong.

Macroblocking this bad is criminal on a HD disc. A broadcast h.264 version is better than BD on fast scenes? I taught we got away from that.

No excuses.
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post #398 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

So you've seen both from start to finish with your own eyes, not just frame captures from worst case split second framegrabs

Peter what do you want me to do? I'm open with suggestions.

At least its not Traffic
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post #399 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Perhaps you don't know much about PhotoShop
Using the "sharpen" filter and the add "noise filter" is what was done to the BD version of the 5th Element which was posted above. This is what created the grainy dithering effect, which is quite often used to create the perception of additional detail.

So you call the poster who denied he did this a liar?
Sharpening does not add noise. A filter that adds noise is not a sharpening filter. That is improper terminology. If you do both you have applied more than a sharpening filter.
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post #400 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I agree.

Just looking at MIII (21.50 GB) Blu-ray BD25, MPEG-2 can deliver the goods ...................

Of course there is still more blocking on BD version but not as bad as the F4 BD.

Just to clarify.
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post #401 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a question for you guys who own both Aeon Flux HD formats. What do you see? Assuming you did an A/B comparison do you see an obvious difference? I did a cap on both BD and HD DVD and I notice the colors are different.

Anyone care to make this an assignment? Maybe post a picture of your PJ with HD players hooked up and playing at the same time switching between them? A good scene to cap is when she's about to land face first to the sharp grasses then zooms in for close up.

I will post the direct file grabs this coming weekend.
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post #402 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Of course there is still more blocking on BD version but not as bad as the F4 BD.

Just to clarify.

The BD of F4 is much better than the broadcast version i saw here in the US.

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post #403 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

So you call the poster who denied he did this a liar?
Sharpening does not add noise.

A sharpening filter will always bring out the noise that's already there. The more sharpening you apply the more visible the noise will get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

The BD of F4 is much better than the broadcast version i saw here in the US.

That's because US broadcasts use MPEG-2 while European broadcasts use more advanced codecs.
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post #404 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

This is interesting. From the upper right hand corner. Blown up 200%. Which looks more like grain?

How much of the grain in MPEG-2 is artifactual due to blocking? I think our eyes are picking up parts of sharp edges in blocks and interpreting that as grain/sharpness. I think it's more and more evident in other screenshots in this thread.

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post #405 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

So you've seen both from start to finish with your own eyes, not just frame captures from worst case split second framegrabs

You better not go there, Peter. What do you think the point of this thread is other than to harp on worst case split second framegrabs?

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post #406 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 12:04 PM
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So what are you suggesting? Do we have to watch the entire film in both versions right next to each other in order to compare encoding quality?

Picking out various samples works just fine and is the way to go. And everything we've seen so far of Fantastic 4 suggests that it's a rather blocky encode.
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post #407 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

So what are you suggesting? Do we have to watch the entire film in both versions right next to each other in order to compare encoding quality?

I'm suggesting that people who have spent the thread harping on "worst case split second framegrabs" should not complain when the same is done to contradict something they believe.

And no, I don't believe that individual frames tell the whole story. Sorry.

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post #408 of 2128 Old 04-30-2007, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Peter what do you want me to do? I'm open with suggestions.

At least its not Traffic

I was responding to rdjam's hyperbole, a person who has yet to probably actually watch for himself any BDs he's so critical of.

In any case, how about a capture from a "normal" shot. Not one where something on fire/blowing up is shooting across the screen.

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post #409 of 2128 Old 05-01-2007, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

I was responding to rdjam's hyperbole, a person who has yet to probably actually watch for himself any BDs he's so critical of.

Easy for you to say, but also too easy for you to be sooo wrong. I have two BD players and do rent a lot of BD discs, as I've stated in various threads. But I reserve the majority of my purchases for HD DVD, since the HD DVD discs are definitely the "keepers" in comparison to the BD versions.

Quote:


In any case, how about a capture from a "normal" shot. Not one where something on fire/blowing up is shooting across the screen.

As long as we remember that we are buying "movies" on these discs, not "stills"

Motion is intrinsic to the experience we are bringing home, here. I have no doubt that many BD releases probably show some really nice still scenes, but when the going gets tough, the tough better keep their stuff together, and VC1 is doing a better job of that. My still shots of Aeon Flux on BD show ridiculous levels of blocking in many very simple scenes, blocking which was completely absent on the VC1 version.

I may as well go on the record and tell you why I think that VC1 is not showing the same levels of grain as some of the other codecs...

Has anyone here ever considered, for a moment, that there may be a reason why VC1 encodes tend to show more fine details than other encodes, yet seemingly "magically" without hugely exacerbated grain?

Take a look at Madshi's new thread and look at "Scene B", then compare the German AVC broadcast (which is second best) versus the HD DVD VC1 encode (which is the best). Look at the two smaller spaceships, while switching between the two pictures. Although there is a lot more "noise" or "grain" in the AVC encode, the VC1 encode shows a lot more detail in these tiny ships, even though the frame shows less noise.

It seems fairly likely to the average genius that the VC1 encode is benefiting from Temporal Analysis, looking at multiple frames to gather additional details about the objects in any particular frame, which are then added to the other frames.

This process, IN and OF itself, would marginalise the influence of random film grain "data" that did not contribute to the detail "information" of the images in the frame. After all, the original images being filmed did not have NOISE, the NOISE is simply caused by the film grain attempting to capture the original smooth images, and is not part of the true scene, but merely an "artifact" caused by the film medium.

The way that VC1 is able to tune out this noise, while capturing the real detail is NOT an accident, in my considered view. And I feel that only Temporal Analysis could achieve this.

I think that many folks have chosen to misinterpret this effect as filtering, while happily ignoring the fact that there is actually much more fine detail in most VC1 encodes, even though the grain seems less pronounced. Were "filtering" truly the cause, you would not see so much more fine detail in scenes like this Serenity Starship scene that Madshi posted.

I realize that there will now be some obligatory Ad Hominem invectives hurled my way by those who have not grasped what I have just outlined, but those who are a little more open-minded will no doubt understand that there is potentially a lot more to VC1 than is publicly known.

Xylon, any chance you could pull some of these Serenity shots to illustrate what I have just highlighted? Or perhaps get some of Madshi's shots here?
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post #410 of 2128 Old 05-01-2007, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Take a look at Madshi's new thread and look at "Scene B", then compare the German AVC broadcast (which is second best) versus the HD DVD VC1 encode (which is the best). Look at the two smaller spaceships, while switching between the two pictures. Although there is a lot more "noise" or "grain" in the AVC encode, the VC1 encode shows a lot more detail in these tiny ships, even though the frame shows less noise.

Correct, but you are comparing apples and oranges and therefore it's not conclusive. The broadcast is a real time CBR encoding, the HD-DVD a non real time fine tuned multi pass encoding. Even if the encoders were identical the latter will have better quality.
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It seems fairly likely to the average genius that the VC1 encode is benefiting from Temporal Analysis, looking at multiple frames to gather additional details about the objects in any particular frame, which are then added to the other frames.

I don't think so. Encoders don't have that kind of precision with motion estimation or processing power to do such analysis. Is that just your theory or do you have any sources to support this?
Quote:
This process, IN and OF itself, would marginalise the influence of random film grain "data" that did not contribute to the detail "information" of the images in the frame. After all, the original images being filmed did not have NOISE, the NOISE is simply caused by the film grain attempting to capture the original smooth images, and is not part of the true scene, but merely an "artifact" caused by the film medium.

If an enocder did this it would not show the source as is but filter it instead. This is not an encoder's job. It should show the source as it is. Any filtering should happen to the source before it is encoded if that is desired by the film makers.
Quote:
The way that VC1 is able to tune out this noise, while capturing the real detail is NOT an accident, in my considered view. And I feel that only Temporal Analysis could achieve this.

It can and is done by Lowry Digital. But it is a job to be done on the source before it is encoded, not during encoding and out of the control of the film makers who approved the source.
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post #411 of 2128 Old 05-02-2007, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Xylon, any chance you could pull some of these Serenity shots to illustrate what I have just highlighted? Or perhaps get some of Madshi's shots here?

I have FOUR versions of Serenity on my hard drive (that I found so far):

1. h.264 European HD broadcast
File Size Processed: 14.75 GB, Play Time: 01h:54m:11s
25.00 FPS (Average), 17.66 Mbps (Average).
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 214096 audio frames found with errors.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

2. HBO E*
File Size Processed: 9.47 GB, Play Time: 01h:58m:52s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (25.44 fps Telecine), 18.00 Mbps (10.70 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 51.35 KB/Frame, 0.20 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 181470 video frames found with errors.
0 of 222887 audio frames found with errors.
0 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

3.Canadian HD broadcast
Info: End of MPEG2 sequence:
Info: 1920 x 1080 (Display Extension: 1440 x 1080), 29.97 fps, 25.00 Mbps (Header), 10.38 Mbps (Average).
Info: AC3 Audio. 2/0 Channels (L, R) (Dolby Surround), 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Info: Found 213733 video frames since start of sequence.
Info: 0 video frames found with errors.
Info: 0 audio frames found with errors.
Info: 0 corrupted video bytes in file.
Info: 0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
Info: 0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

and of course HD DVD.

I need timestamps. Well guys you know the drill.
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post #412 of 2128 Old 05-04-2007, 10:12 AM
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Hi all - I am making some comparisons of detail in the various encodes against VC1, over here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10462454

I'll be using some blow-ups from various shots by Madshi and Xylon.
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post #413 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Aeon Flux

14.00 GB Mpeg-2 ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............15.80 GB VC-1
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post #414 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I need someone to verify the discrepancy in colors. To people who have both copies can you check? To somebody who can grab screenshots from BD or HD DVD can you take a look if you can see a similar result?

I check and re-check my MPC settings and I still get this result. The BD version is lacking in color. This is the first time I have seen this.
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post #415 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 02:46 PM
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Which decoder are you using and what color space is it outputting?

It's interesting to note that the HD-DVD is framed tighter than the BRD, by a few pixels. The HD-DVD is also much cleaner than the BRD with less noise, less artifacting. It's just more solid in comparison. The only negative is that there appears to be some filtering on her eyebrow. BRD has more hair detail there. So it's vc-1 done almost right.
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post #416 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Which decoder are you using and what color space is it outputting?

It's interesting to note that the HD-DVD is framed tighter than the BRD, by a few pixels. The HD-DVD is also much cleaner than the BRD with less noise, less artifacting. It's just more solid in comparison. This is vc-1 done right.

1.Video Mixing Render 9 (Renderless)Pin Info:

CLSID: {39F498AF-1A09-4275-B193-673B0BA3D478}
Filter: MPEG-2 Video Decoder
Pin: Output

- Connection media type:

Video: YV12 1920x1080 23.98fps 30000Kbps

AM_MEDIA_TYPE:
majortype: MEDIATYPE_Video {73646976-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}
subtype: MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12 {32315659-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}
formattype: FORMAT_VideoInfo2 {F72A76A0-EB0A-11D0-ACE4-0000C0CC16BA}
bFixedSizeSamples: 1
bTemporalCompression: 0
lSampleSize: 3110400
cbFormat: 1152

VIDEOINFOHEADER:
rcSource: (0,0)-(0,0)
rcTarget: (0,0)-(0,0)
dwBitRate: 30000000
dwBitErrorRate: 0
AvgTimePerFrame: 417083

VIDEOINFOHEADER2:
dwInterlaceFlags: 0x00000001
dwCopyProtectFlags: 0x00000000
dwPictAspectRatioX: 16
dwPictAspectRatioY: 9
dwControlFlags: 0x00000000
dwReserved2: 0x00000000

BITMAPINFOHEADER:
biSize: 40
biWidth: 1920
biHeight: -1080
biPlanes: 1
biBitCount: 12
biCompression: YV12
biSizeImage: 3110400
biXPelsPerMeter: 0
biYPelsPerMeter: 0
biYPelsPerMeter: 0
biClrUsed: 0
biClrImportant: 0


2. Mpeg-2 Video Decoder at PC levels Pin Info:

- Connected to:

CLSID: {555C90CD-D094-4672-9B26-B73BDD38FEEE}
Filter: CyberLink Demux (PDVD7)
Pin: Video

- Connection media type:

Video: MPEG2 Video 1920x1080 23.98fps 30000Kbps

AM_MEDIA_TYPE:
majortype: MEDIATYPE_Video {73646976-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}
subtype: MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO {E06D8026-DB46-11CF-B4D1-00805F6CBBEA}
formattype: FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO {E06D80E3-DB46-11CF-B4D1-00805F6CBBEA}
bFixedSizeSamples: 1
bTemporalCompression: 0
lSampleSize: 1
cbFormat: 692

VIDEOINFOHEADER:
rcSource: (0,0)-(1920,1080)
rcTarget: (0,0)-(0,0)
dwBitRate: 30000000
dwBitErrorRate: 0
AvgTimePerFrame: 417083

VIDEOINFOHEADER2:
dwInterlaceFlags: 0x00000000
dwCopyProtectFlags: 0x00000000
dwPictAspectRatioX: 16
dwPictAspectRatioY: 9
dwControlFlags: 0x00000000
dwReserved2: 0x00000000

MPEG2VIDEOINFO:
dwStartTimeCode: 0
cbSequenceHeader: 140
dwProfile: 0x00000000
dwLevel: 0x00000000
dwFlags: 0x00000000

BITMAPINFOHEADER:
biSize: 40
biWidth: 1920
biHeight: 1080
biPlanes: 0
biBitCount: 0
biCompression: 0
biSizeImage: 0
biXPelsPerMeter: 2000
biYPelsPerMeter: 55362
biYPelsPerMeter: 55362
biClrUsed: 0
biClrImportant: 0


3. Cyberlink Demux (PDVD7) Pin Info:

- Connected to:

CLSID: {E436EBB5-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
Filter: M:\\Sky Captain BD\\10922302_SKY_CAPTAIN\\BDMV\\STREAM\\00002.m2ts
Pin: Output

- Connection media type:

Unknown

AM_MEDIA_TYPE:
majortype: MEDIATYPE_Stream {E436EB83-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
subtype: TIME_FORMAT_NONE {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}
formattype: TIME_FORMAT_NONE {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}
bFixedSizeSamples: 1
bTemporalCompression: 0
lSampleSize: 1
cbFormat: 0



All this 3 I see on my filters menu when playing back mpeg-2 BD. I checked this is the same filters that was used for past BD captures (mpeg-2 only). And they have the same color level as HD DVD.

To be sure where do I specifically look for the colorspace used during playback?
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post #417 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 03:01 PM
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the BD pic of the grass scene has slightly more information lol
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post #418 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

All this 3 I see on my filters menu when playing back mpeg-2 BD. I checked this is the same filters that was used for past BD captures (mpeg-2 only). And they have the same color level as HD DVD.

To be sure where do I specifically look for the colorspace used during playback?

I'm not sure with MPC. If you were using Zoom Player there would be a few places to check.

Is this color shift present in other mpeg-2 comparisons to vc-1? I saw it in the King Kong comparisons awhile back. The lack of green and red saturation is a dead giveaway of color space issues. The output space might be correct but the mixing stage can cause problems. In Zoom Player it's not good to check yuv mixing if you're outputting yv12. Not sure if MPC has that option.
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post #419 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 03:23 PM
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Here are a few closeups from the Aeon Flux snap - Mpeg on Bluray first, then VC1 on HD DVD second.

EDIT: have used the new post by Xylon.

I do think that the skin/lip colors on the VC1 version are better, and that the hair detail on the VC1 version are better also.

Also - note the macoblocking on the Mpeg versions - don't confuse it with higher detail...





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post #420 of 2128 Old 05-05-2007, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I'm not sure with MPC. If you were using Zoom Player there would be a few places to check.

Is this color shift present in other mpeg-2 comparisons to vc-1? I saw it in the King Kong comparisons awhile back. The lack of green and red saturation is a dead giveaway of color space issues. The output space might be correct but the mixing stage can cause problems. In Zoom Player it's not good to check yuv mixing if you're outputting yv12. Not sure if MPC has that option.

I hope someone can put up any screenshots from Aeon Flux BD from their setup. I want to isolate this problem.
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