Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 20 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #571 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Again, you insist on comparing filesizes as though the quality is the same. But now you suggest with just a little bit more that "perhaps" Denzel would have his eye and fingers back - but no one knows this.

This is a silly circular discussion and pointless. VC-1 with more bits beats MPEG2? Big deal. We all can see the MPEG has compression artifacts and so does the VC1. The VC1 is better in this example. Anything else would be unexpetced given it uses more bits and has more efficient symbol coding, not to mention the improvements before the final coding stage. It's claimed to be twice as effective! So find some useful example please where MPEG has double the bit rate and VC-1 still has more detail and no blocking while MPEG has less detail and blocking. You can trade blocking for loss of detail and what you prefer is subjective. Unless VC-1 beats high bit rate MPEG2 and AVC with more detail AND less blocking at the same time it's simply not better per se, just an option to use depending on bit budget and acceptable artifacts.
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post #572 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

So find some useful example please where MPEG has double the bit rate and VC-1 still has more detail and no blocking while MPEG has less detail and blocking.

Actually, forget about who would win for a moment. If you could find ANY example of a release on both bluray and HD DVD that has an Mpeg bluray with twice the bitrate of the HD DVD release, I would be very grateful... I haven't seen that yet...
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post #573 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 08:58 AM
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The tipping point where mpeg-2 seems to come into its comfort region seems to be around 24 Mb/s (per MI3). This is where the incidence of MBA's (macroblock artifacts) seem to low enough and mild enough to pass w/o some serious scrutiny. This is where vc-1 performance is nearly the same for pq and MBA behavior, at nearly the same bitrates.

Below this tipping point, mpeg-2 falls to a noticeable disadvantage, as the MBA behavior becomes obstrusive. Vc-1 is observing similar MBA behavior at similar bitrates, but comes out ahead in pq since it is able to blend the MBA edges successfully and take advantage of a mild mathematical efficiency advantage (1.1-1.3x). Unfortunately, this regime is where the majority of picture samples have been taken, so a skewed impression of mpeg-2 performance is given (whether intentional or incidental). In fact the average ratio of program sizes in this topic (mpeg2 to vc-1 comparisons) came out to 0.9x, so it should be no surprise the vc-1 samples came out ahead.

In order for vc-1 to really demonstrate the 2x efficiency claim in proper, we need to find a comparison where the mpeg-2 is running at least 24 Mb/s and the vc-1 is running around 12 Mb/s (for a 2 hr movie, about 22 GB vs. 11 GB). This may be a tall order given the availability of titles, but that seems to be the fairest way to demonstrate this claim, at this time.

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post #574 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

In order for vc-1 to really demonstrate the 2x efficiency claim in proper, we need to find a comparison where the mpeg-2 is running at least 24 Mb/s and the vc-1 is running around 12 Mb/s (for a 2 hr movie, about 22 GB vs. 11 GB). This may be a tall order given the availability of titles, but that seems to be the fairest way to demonstrate this claim, at this time.

What size was the BD(US) version of KKBB?

VC1 version was about 12GB.
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post #575 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 09:49 AM
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I open the question to those who made those movie size topics a while ago. Upon searching a bit, I am unable to get this value for you.

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post #576 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 01:49 PM
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Last time I'm rolling this thread back.

Keep it on topic. Don't make it personal.

It would be a shame to be suspended on a holiday weekend, wouldn't it?

Thread reopened.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #577 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

The tipping point where mpeg-2 seems to come into its comfort region seems to be around 24 Mb/s (per MI3). ...Below this tipping point, mpeg-2 falls to a noticeable disadvantage, as the MBA behavior becomes obstrusive. Vc-1 is observing similar MBA behavior at similar bitrates, but comes out ahead in pq since it is able to blend the MBA edges successfully

Simply put, if this were the case, then additional details such as Denzel's eye and fingers would not be present in the VC1 version.


Anyway - moving on, as we don't want the thread locked again.

Xylon - are you working on a comparison with "Dreamgirls"? It's been said by some reviewers that this is one of the best Mpeg titles on Bluray. As a Dual Layer 50 Gig Mpeg encode, it would be very interesting to compare to the VC1 version, especially where all those stage lights are flashing on and off.

Also interesting would be some foreign VC1 encodes of US Bluray exclusives, like:

Terminator 2
The Holiday
The Prestige
Total Recall
xXx

And the blu-ray.com site has a section with release bitrates listed, it makes interesting reading, as most BD mpeg titles are not using very high bitrates. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=3338

The highest I can find for comparison to VC1 are:

"The Prestige" will be a good comparison, with one of the higher bitrates out of the Bluray mpeg releases, at 23 mbps video.

"Total Recall", at 22.82 mbps

Or for the big daddy of them all, how about "Reds", at 28 mbps... just about the highest rate Mpeg offered on Bluray in the US of A, according to those lists.
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post #578 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 02:20 PM
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So I'm really looking forward to a Flags of Our Fathers comparison. Should be interesting.

I'd also like to see sometime, from Xylon or anyone else, comparisons between the broadcast versions and the HD disc of these titles:

Superman: The Movie [HDNet]
Crank [mpeg-2 vs mpeg-2]
Mission: Impossible [old transfer vs new]
House of Wax [low mpeg-2 vs vc-1]
Sky Captain
POTC: DMC [h.264 vs high bitrate AVC]
Lord of War
Big Fish
Crash
Million Dollar baby
Stir of Echoes
The Terminator
Vertical Limit
Species
The 40 Year Old Virgin
Lethal Weapon

And here's some HD-DVD vs BRD (vc-1 vs mpeg-2] comparisons I'm really curious about, as I'd consider buying these films:

World Trade Center [HD-DVD30 vs BRD50!]
House of Wax
Lethal Weapon 1 & 2 [show me the jaggies]
Sleepy Hollow [let's see the noise]
Sky Captain
Mission: Impossible [HD-DVD30 vs BRD50!]
Total Recall [audio is screwed up on the Studio Canal release but PQ improvements might be interesting}
Terminator 2 [wmv-hd vs BRD vs HD-DVD]
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post #579 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 02:23 PM
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Hi Kram, there is a VC1 version of T2 available. That might make more sense to compare to Bluray than the old WMV DVD version. Just a thought
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post #580 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 02:29 PM
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I'm aware there's a vc-1 of T2 out there. I listed the HD-DVD, right?

It's just that the wmv-hd keeps on coming up as the best version and I'd like to see how it compares. Plus it would be nice to have it there for historical purposes, to see how far we've come. Too bad no one's figured out a way to get direct screenshots of the DVHS version, yet. Then we could have a massive comparison of dvd and hd versions on record.
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post #581 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I'm aware there's a vc-1 of T2 out there. I listed the HD-DVD, right?

It's just that the wmv-hd keeps on coming up as the best version and I'd like to see how it compares. Plus it would be nice to have it there for historical purposes, to see how far we've come. Too bad no one's figured out a way to get direct screenshots of the DVHS version, yet. Then we could have a massive comparison of dvd and hd versions on record.

I hear you. Might be interesting, yes.

I find it hard to believe it could be the best version tho, so I would have a hard time judging it against that standard.

Remember, it has a much smaller file size than the HD or BD versions, due to being on a DVD, and it is encoded with a codec 6 years old. If it were that great, I wouldn't be able to understand why folks are wasting time on AVC and VC1 encodes that are much bigger

Not to mention it is 1440 by 1080 (shivers) - it was great for it's time, tho.
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post #582 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 02:40 PM
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Well, technically the 1440x810 6gb wmv-hd shouldn't be all that great, but stranger things have happened. Some people have said it's better than the BRD, others have said the opposite. Me, I just want to see some "official" screenshots. The screenshots I've seen so far don't look good for the mpeg-2 BRD. It doesn't even look like the same transfer as the wmv-hd version(color and framing differences). How screwed up is that?
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post #583 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 03:03 PM
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The difference in resolution is probably less of a big deal than the literal numbers suggest. Unless these T2 versions are coming in razor sharp detail, then the extra resolution of the br/hdvd formats are probably not getting such a great work-out, anyway.

Isn't it natural curiosity to want to see what wmv-hd looks like at 7 Mb/s, anyway?

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post #584 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 03:35 PM
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The HD movies available on Xbox Live Marketplace come in at about 6GB @ 720p. It would be interesting to see those compared to the media releases.
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post #585 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 03:36 PM
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That thought crossed my mind, as well. Is it possible to do screen captures on that material?

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post #586 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 03:41 PM
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We might as well do comparisons between the h.264 trailers on Apple's site and their HD-DVD/BRD counterparts too.
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post #587 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 03:43 PM
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Think of it as a bake-off for advanced codecs in the single digit bitrates.

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post #588 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

The HD movies available on Xbox Live Marketplace come in at about 6GB @ 720p. It would be interesting to see those compared to the media releases.

Happy Feet and the Departed would seem like logical choices to complement this topic...

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post #589 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Happy Feet and the Departed would seem like logical choices to complement this topic...


Benwaggoner said they are VC-1 with advanced profile, so it would be a good test of how they hold up at lower sizes/bit rates (although they are 720p and not 1080p):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10625203
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post #590 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Not to mention it is 1440 by 1080 (shivers) - it was great for it's time, tho.

Yeah, gods forbid they only encode the actual resolution of the aspect ratio instead of including the black bars. What monsters!

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post #591 of 2128 Old 05-24-2007, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

Yeah, gods forbid they only encode the actual resolution of the aspect ratio instead of including the black bars. What monsters!

Err, run that by me again?
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post #592 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 12:20 PM
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I think he's referring to the wmv-hd only being encoded with 816 vertical pixels. You said 1440x1080 though, but he thinks... eh nevermind.

The wmv-hd is 1440x816p. Not square pixels. The black bars aren't encoded but the horizontal resolution is not full 1920. It's a compromise, like broadcast HD-lite.
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post #593 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I think he's referring to the wmv-hd only being encoded with 816 vertical pixels. You said 1440x1080 though, but he thinks... eh nevermind.

The wmv-hd is 1440x816p. Not square pixels. The black bars aren't encoded but the horizontal resolution is not full 1920. It's a compromise, like broadcast HD-lite.

The funny thing is that even if 1920*816 vs 1440*816 is 33% the real world difference isnt that big. Just because the encoding is 1920 horizontal lines doesnt mean that the movie itself has that much res. So if the real res is about 1650 lines that will make the difference only 14,6%.

So for the 1920*1080 format to shine, you really need a perfect master.
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post #594 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 01:25 PM
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I can agree with you there. I think most of material that is close to using the full 1920x1080p resolutuion are cg sourced and maybe the end credits (also cg sourced). Probably only a few film transfers approach full HD res (that are available on disc).
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post #595 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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post #596 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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post #597 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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8.20 GB Mpeg-2 ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ..........................................................24 .90 GB AVC
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post #598 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Superman: The Movie [HDNet]

Quick and dirty.

HDNet;


HD-DVD;


HDNet;


HD-DVD;


HDNet;


HD-DVD;


The last one shows the effects of HDNet's DNR pretty clearly. Ruins the whole opening sequence.
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post #599 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 06:10 PM
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Yeah, I had a feeling the HDNet version looked mushier than it should've been. Eh. Broadcast quality sucks.

Dirty Dancing shot - Doesn't look too bad. Newer transfer. Detail in the shirt is there... uh oh.... JAGGIES. Look at the shoulder, shirt collar, and her cheek. That's a shame.

Training Day - predicatable. Mpeg-2 is noisier, vc-1 is smoother. A little more definition in the vc-1.

Underworld II - vc-1 encode is brighter, again, has less blocks. There a few places where there seems to be blocks on both versions though. I'd guess it's on the master tape. There's one right above the corner of her mouth, one on her forehead, and a few right below her eye. Anyone else see these?
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post #600 of 2128 Old 05-25-2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Lord of War

Ho hum.

Broadcast;


BD;


Broadcast;


BD;


Broadcast;


BD;
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