Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 12:18 AM
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I'd say the BRD looks more correct because it's relatively neautral. The red tint on the HD-DVD shows up everywhere: shadows, sky, papers, etc. If the actual disc is like that then I don't see how anyone could say it's equal to the BRD.
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post #692 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 01:34 AM
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The Blu-ray looks far better! AVC wins this one! Not really a valid AVC vs. VC1 tho, isn't the AVC bit-rate higher?
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post #693 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 01:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm double checking my settings right now for the "tinting".
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post #694 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD_sanchez View Post

The Blu-ray looks far better! AVC wins this one! Not really a valid AVC vs. VC1 tho, isn't the AVC bit-rate higher?

As Mr Hanky so perceptively said, it is really a battle of the bitrates, rather than codecs.
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post #695 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I'm double checking my settings right now for the "tinting".

There are sometimes issues with HDTV screen caps because HDTV uses BT709 color while most HTPC's are using BT601 set up for NTSC and DVD. I don't know which one highdef DVD's use but they may be subtly different.

If you are using Avisynth then I once made a quickie filter to convert to BT601, on my downloads page. See: www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.zip if you want to see if it makes a difference to either format.

For an image example of the difference in using it, see
www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.2.jpg

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at www.trbarry.com
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post #696 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 03:33 AM
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Barry, Getting object not found on that link; Do you have another handy?
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post #697 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dot50Cal View Post

Barry, Getting object not found on that link; Do you have another handy?

try this one ...

http://www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.zip
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post #698 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 04:23 AM
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Thank you
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post #699 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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The previous screenshots used:


Blu-ray

0-255 PC levels corrected to 16-235 TV levels via Photoshop

YUV ? Cyberlink H.264/AVC decoder doesn't say.


HD DVD

16-235 TV levels - no correction needed

YUV Colorspace is BT.601 according to Haali video renderer.
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post #700 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 05:00 AM
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Xylon,
why don't you interchange between tv/pc levels & 601/709 colorspace using Haali renderer's settings ?

I have the impression than all High Definition videos use the BT.709 colorspace.

Something more. I am not so sure if we could count Cyberlink's AVC decoder as a "reference" one.
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post #701 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 07:18 AM
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I think rdjam seems to have (conveniently) forgotten the whole point of the discussion. If AVC can utilize the extra 20GB a BRD has to provide a better picture than what a VC1 encode on a HD-DVD can. It isn't which codec is more efficient.
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post #702 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

A few reviewers have commented that they were kind to Bluray releases and scored more easily on them because of their poor start in the beginning.

So you're saying that is unfair?

The quote speaks for itself, so there is no explanation needed for most folks.

I'd recommend you don't try to bring that debate over here too. It already cluttered one thread...

Wow, there's the biggest FACT DODGE I've ever seen by any poster on this site.

You said that any site looked at by itself will show HD DVD being "far ahead" in PQ ratings.

High Def Digest
HD DVD - 3.97
Blu-ray - 3.98

Home Theater Spot
HD DVD - 4.02
Blu-ray - 4.02

Upcoming Discs
HD DVD - 4.04
Blu-ray - 4.04

Home Theater Forum
HD DVD - 4.15
Blu-ray - 4.27

DVD Talk
HD DVD - 3.69
Blu-ray - 3.63

There are five sites looked at individually. Two are tied, one has HD DVD 0.06 stars ahead, one has Blu-ray 0.12 stars ahead and one has Blu-ray 0.01 stars ahead.

So obvious your previous attempt to brush off the review comparison is as flawed as your current attempt to brush off the fact that you never addressed this point previously, but instead advise me to "not bring that debate here" - what debate? You never debated it!

I haven't seen any reviewer comment that they were kind to Blu-ray in the beginning, that's complete rubbish and total FUD on your part.

PQ Blu-ray Title
1.00 Basic Instict 2
1.00 Robocop
1.00 Kiss of the Dragon
1.50 The Last Waltz
1.50 Full Metal Jacket
1.50 U2: Rattle and Hum
1.50 Kiss of the Dragon
1.50 U2 Rattle and Hum
1.50 Kiss of the Dragon
1.50 A View from Space
2.00 Ricky Bobby
2.00 Hitch
2.00 House of Flying Daggers
2.00 The Terminator
2.00 Lethal Weapn 2
2.00 House of Flying Daggers
2.00 Tears of the Sun
2.00 New Orleans Concert
2.00 Christmas Vacation
2.00 xXx
2.00 xXx
2.00 Ricky Bobby
2.50 Christmas Vacation
2.50 American Psycho
2.50 The Sentinel
2.50 50 First Dates
2.50 Fifth Element
2.50 Lethal Weapon
2.50 Dinosaur
2.50 Jay & Silent Bob
2.50 The Fugitive
2.50 Tomb Raider
2.50 Christmas Vacation
2.50 Planet of the Apes
2.50 House of Flying Daggers
2.50 Hitch
2.50 Fifth Element
2.50 Fifth Element
2.50 50 First Dates
2.50 The Punisher
2.50 Saw
2.50 A View from Space
2.50 A Knight's Tale
2.50 Silent Hill
2.50 The Big Hit
2.50 Dinosaur
2.50 Lethal Weapon
2.50 Haunted Mansion
2.50 Italian Job
2.50 Ricky Bobby
2.50 Toto Live in Amsterdam
2.50 The Tailor of Panama
2.50 Silent Hill
2.50 The Transporter
2.50 The World's Fastest Indian
2.50 Young Guns
2.50 Hoosiers
2.50 Crash
2.50 Reservoir Dogs
2.50 Nature's Colours
2.50 Chris Botti


You be sure and tell us which of these you think the reviewers from those five sites were being kind to m'kay? Please show links or just tell us the reviewers names so we can contact them to acertain this fact.
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post #703 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 07:36 AM
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It seems clear to me that the AVC encode is slightly better in PQ than the VC-1 one and I am glad I got the bluray verison of the movie. Do I think I would notice this in real world watching? No but the piece of mind is nice to have.

It boggles my mind how someone can't see that they have a diff tint to them and it really boggles my mind how someone can't see in the closeup shots how the AVC version is better even if slightly.

I think this comparo just shows that a higher bit rate can help but it isn't like it is some night and day difference like some members at AVS try and go on about....clearly there is a massive law of diminishing returns. Not like I'd cry myself to sleep if I was "stuck" with the lower bitrate VC1 version looking slightly inferior which may or may not even show up in real world watching just like I bet most of the vc-1/mpeg2 diffs wouldn't be all that visible in real world watching.

I guess the conclusion I have is that based on this comparo, higher bitrate is better but not like the lower bitrate is crap. I have both formats and like both fo them equally but am still waiting for a comparo that has a "OMG THE ADVANTAGE OF BLURAY DESTROYS HDDVD" conclusion to back up some of the comments by the over zealous format people...this is not it. The diff here is splitting hairs. It's like saying a car that does 0-60 in 5 seconds with a huge engine is waaaaay quicker than a car that does it in 5.2 with a smaller engine. Yes there is a diff but it is minor and not enough to imply one is waaaay better than the other....the key being the way some react.

There is a diff between saying there is an advantage/difference and then acting like the lower sized one is trash. That is my whole point. Obviously the extra bitrate/bandwidth helps and extra size of a blu ray 50GB disc seems to be clearly useful here but it isn't like it is a monster diff to the point that hd dvd is worthless and hardly better than dvd quality as some biased people try and imply.

Having said all that, I'll still buy the higher bitrate versions if they follow the same trend. heh
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post #704 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

It seems clear to me that the AVC encode is slightly better in PQ than the VC-1 one and I am glad I got the bluray verison of the movie. Do I think I would notice this in real world watching? No but the piece of mind is nice to have.

It boggles my mind how someone can't see that they have a diff tint to them and it really boggles my mind how someone can't see in the closeup shots how the AVC version is better even if slightly.

I think this comparo just shows that a higher bit rate can help but it isn't like it is some night and day difference like some members at AVS try and go on about....clearly there is a massive law of diminishing returns. Not like I'd cry myself to sleep if I was "stuck" with the lower bitrate VC1 version looking slightly inferior which may or may not even show up in real world watching just like I bet most of the vc-1/mpeg2 diffs wouldn't be all that visible in real world watching.

I guess the conclusion I have is that based on this comparo, higher bitrate is better but not like the lower bitrate is crap. I have both formats and like both fo them equally but am still waiting for a comparo that has a "OMG THE ADVANTAGE OF BLURAY DESTROYS HDDVD" conclusion to back up some of the comments by the over zealous format people...this is not it. The diff here is splitting hairs. It's like saying a car that does 0-60 in 5 seconds with a huge engine is waaaaay quicker than a car that does it in 5.2 with a smaller engine. Yes there is a diff but it is minor and not enough to imply one is waaaay better than the other....the key being the way some react.

There is a diff between saying there is an advantage/difference and then acting like the lower sized one is trash. That is my whole point. Obviously the extra bitrate/bandwidth helps and extra size of a blu ray 50GB disc seems to be clearly useful here but it isn't like it is a monster diff to the point that hd dvd is worthless and hardly better than dvd quality as some biased people try and imply.

Having said all that, I'll still buy the higher bitrate versions if they follow the same trend. heh

Come on, we're striving for perfection here, even if we can't see it.
You are being entirely tooo logicial and I expect you to be attacked in;

3...........2................1.......... (fanboy attacks commence).
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post #705 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 09:15 AM
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Well, well, well. After comparing the AVC and vc-1 versions AVC wins. More texture, finer details, etc, etc. What happened. I thought vc-1 was "transparent" and no real improvement was possible. I thought all the hand tuning (done in a real-world get encoding done ASAP environment) could preserve all the detail in every scene? What happened to the loop filter argument? I thought it was IMPOSSIBLE for AVC to preserve more detail than vc-1 at bd&hd optical bitrates.

Or ... was I mislead?
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post #706 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 09:26 AM
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I am format neutral. Own both. Seen a few dozen movies in each format. My preferences: VC-1(best) ->AVC (good)->MPEG2 (worst)
MPEG2 movies do not have the quality I prefer.

You should listen to the owners of both HD DVD & Blu-ray, the only thing they care is quality and not format. And blu-ray happens to have much more MPEG2 movies. So if the same movie is released in both formats, I get HD DVD disk. If blu-ray movie is released in MPEG2, I do not watch it. AVC is acceptable, but still VC-1 is the best.
(There is one exception I've seen: Enemy of the state on Blu-ray is Mpeg2, and it is a very good quality movie.)
Why do you think Planet Earth is encoded in VC-1 in both formats? My guess because it is a documentary shot specifically in HD, for HD and demands best possible HD quality.

So I totally agree with SWANLEE who said earlier in the thread:
"Uh I'm format neutral I' have actually spent more on my BLU-RAY player Panasonic than my HD-DVD player (360-Add-on)

I'm not creating differences, look at the pictures their is a difference, We know VC-1 does have a smoothing effect at times compared to MPEG2, I've seen this with my own eyes as I own both formats 70 HD-DVD and 40 BLU-RAY titles. I know what
MPEG2, AVC, VC-1 encodes looks like and MPEG2 tends be overly sharp and exposes grain and noise and is also not as efficient as AVC or VC-1.

Sounds like some people get so snippy about formats they even go down to being snippy about codecs presumably associating the format with the codec.

As a format neutral person I don't freakin care, I know what my eyes like and they prefer VC-1 it could be on BLU-RAY or HD-DVD for all I care.

I prefer AVC to MPEG2 as well and VC-1 to AVC.

"It seems like the proper criteria is that the codec shouldn't soften or harden or change anything about the image it is fed, in the first place."

Well the MPEG2 version sure isn't cutting it, I don't think that car had grain on it in real life and those flames didn't have that blockyness to it. Since we are most likely never getting Lossless HD video we are talking 20 terrabytes or more of space needed, we have to deal with lossy codecs, none are perfect but some look better and are more efficient than others. MPEG2 simply doesn't cut it for me anymore."
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post #707 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 10:05 AM
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Using my 37" 1080p LCD as a monitor and going full screen with the very nice mouseover shots -- I give a slight nod to the BD version at 8" viewing distance. So until I get a very large (~120") 1080p front projection display -- I'm not going to worry about BD50 AVC vs HD30 VC-1
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post #708 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Using my 37" 1080p LCD as a monitor and going full screen with the very nice mouseover shots -- I give a slight nod to the BD version at 8" viewing distance. So until I get a very large (~120") 1080p front projection display -- I'm not going to worry about BD50 AVC vs HD30 VC-1

8 inches (") or 8 feet (') ??

If you're viewing from 8 inches to see differences then I think you're trying to pick fly shot out of pepper.
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post #709 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

If you're viewing from 8 inches to see differences then I think you're trying to pick fly shot out of pepper.

No argument!
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post #710 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

See my previous post.

Why is it that VC1 being inferior is "splitting hairs" and MPEG2 or AVC being inferior is a major revelation?

And please don't give me this nonsense about "rampant macroblocking" when not a single review makes any mention of such a thing. Its easy to pick it out blowing up a still shot 400% but watching it is another thing.

Take a look back at all the chatter over a lower bitrate MPEG2 Training Day being slightly inferior to a higher bitrate VC1 and then tell me what is splitting hairs.

Training day was one of the earliest and poorest quality BD25 MPEG2 encodes and doesn't look nearly as good as the VC1 version. This could be seen in 100% normal view samples, not samples blown up to 10X normal magnification as we are frequently seeing when pointing out differences between high bitrate AVC encodes and VC1 of the same title.

And as far as why bad BD25 encodes are getting ridiculed, well, remember that people are paying a 2X or 3X premium price for that BD hardware to play it on.
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post #711 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slide83 View Post

I think rdjam seems to have (conveniently) forgotten the whole point of the discussion.

Have I? I thought it was a comparison thread. Since the AVC encode was given 58% more bits, one would have expected it to be massively better than the VC1 encode. Instead, they are almost identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

I haven't seen any reviewer comment that they were kind to Blu-ray in the beginning, that's complete rubbish and total FUD on your part.

I'll look it up for you. There were at least two credible reviewers who admitted that they had been more lenient on Bluray releases in their reviews due to Bluray having a poor start.

This is not exactly a secret...
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post #712 of 2128 Old 06-02-2007, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Have I? I thought it was a comparison thread. Since the AVC encode was given 58% more bits, one would have expected it to be massively better than the VC1 encode. Instead, they are almost identical.

I thought the whole point of VC-1 was that it would beat anything even at lower bitrates. So here we are with an AVC encode that is sharper and shows more detail, if given VC-1 more bits it probably would of looked better right? Doesn't that mean the fault lies with HD DVD as a format? HD DVD's low bandwith?
Is "good enough" really something to be used here at avsforum?
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post #713 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 01:42 AM - Thread Starter
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post #714 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
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post #715 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

There are sometimes issues with HDTV screen caps because HDTV uses BT709 color while most HTPC's are using BT601 set up for NTSC and DVD. I don't know which one highdef DVD's use but they may be subtly different.

If you are using Avisynth then I once made a quickie filter to convert to BT601, on my downloads page. See: www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.zip if you want to see if it makes a difference to either format.

For an image example of the difference in using it, see
www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.2.jpg

- Tom

Thanks. I checked my settings, switched back and forth I see no change between the captures. The YUV colorspace change has no effect (at least to my eyes).

Does anyone see any difference?
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post #716 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 03:19 AM
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It always seems like Christmas when Xylon posts a bunch of screenshots.

I don't see any difference between the 601 and 709 screenshots. If I'm not mistaken all that color stuff should already be taken care of within the decoder itself.

The HD-DVD still has the red tint.

First Shot:

The plane has blocking in the vc-1 shot but the watermark is in the way. Aww. Any chance we could get a clear shot of it, Xylon?

The lettering on the boats are a little more defined in the avc encode. Check out the P and the 7 on the boat on the far right. Better. It seems like a repeat of the We Were Soldiers comparison where the vc-1 version has too much filtering. The ships in the distance are also more defined in avc, as well as the mountains and sky. The whole picture is full of these "subtle" improvements.

The mountain and the beach on the far right is a lot better on the BRD:




Second shot:

Vc-1 is smoothed over. Avc is raw and noisy. Not a whole lot of differences because of the type of shot and most of the bitrate is going to the grain anyway. Maybe there's slightly more detail in the dirt and the soldier's uniforms on the avc.
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post #717 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Thanks. I checked my settings, switched back and forth I see no change between the captures. The YUV colorspace change has no effect (at least to my eyes).

Does anyone see any difference?

nope, they look exactly the same to me, too ...
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/flagsofo...09tobt601.html

and thx for the additional screencaps, I already built them in for mouseover comparison
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/flagsofo...-vs-hd/03.html
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/flagsofo...-vs-hd/04.html
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post #718 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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You guys want movement then this set shows a lot of action in the background from multiple locations. Unless you guys meant action up close

I will post the cropped no-watermarked image of the plane tomorrow. I gotto go to bed, long day . . . . . .
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post #719 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 03:36 AM
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I hate to be a killjoy here, but you can't use black and white images to test for BT.601 versus BT.709 differences.

The 601 and 709 matrices only effect colors. Cb and Cr are equal to 128 when there is absence of color (black, white, gray, BTB, WTW). Both matrices will output the same RGB values when Cb and Cr are 128. Just look at the equations:

601
R = Y + 1.371(Cr - 128)
G = Y - 0.698(Cr - 128) - 0.336(Cb - 128)
B = Y + 1.732(Cb - 128)

709
R = Y + 1.54(Cr - 128)
G = Y - 0.459(Cr - 128) - 0.183(Cb - 128)
B = Y + 1.816(Cb - 128)

When Cb and Cr are 128, both BT.601 and BT.709 transforms become R = G = B = Y.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #720 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 03:38 AM
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Great job, msv. You even fixed the 2 pixel vertical difference.

I especially like this:
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/wewereso...detail_2x.html
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