Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post




The mountain and the beach on the far right is a lot better on the BRD:

Definitely much better.
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post #722 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 05:02 AM
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Great job, msv. But you need to add the info on the bitrate.
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post #723 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 05:08 AM
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Only if he does that for every comparison. Just to be fair.
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post #724 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 05:15 AM
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I can add the movie-filesizes provided by Xylon ... the bitrates I don't know unfortunately, because he has the discs and takes the screencaps
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post #725 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Definitely much better.

All I see is the color difference, which may or may not be better on the AVC encode.
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post #726 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

All I see is the color difference, which may or may not be better on the AVC encode.

When I posted my previous comment, I hadn't looked at the mouse-over comparison. Based on the mouse-over comparison, there doesn't seem to be any difference between the two.
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post #727 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Thanks. I checked my settings, switched back and forth I see no change between the captures. The YUV colorspace change has no effect (at least to my eyes).

Does anyone see any difference?

Xylon -

As dr1394 pointed out, there is no difference in black & white (& grey) images. The differences would show up in skiin tones like in my linked example and even more extremely in some shades of green-blue. One of your first FooF examples looks like it might have some of that, but not the grey ones.

There used to be a site with some very good image examples and explanations of the bt709/601 problem but I've lost the link. Anybody know?

I think it had a bunch of flowers.

- Tom

PS - Thanks for all the work you've done here. This is a great thread.

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

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post #728 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msv View Post

and thx for the additional screencaps, I already built them in for mouseover comparison
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/flagsofo...-vs-hd/03.html
http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/flagsofo...-vs-hd/04.html

Using these mouseovers I'd say that the AVC version is a tad bit sharper. But the difference is extremely subtle.
Much more pronounced on the other hand is what looks like a green tint on the AVC version. I'm not sure what's up with that?

I ran a Photoshop average filter on the beach image (04.html) which returns the average color of the image (I cropped the watermarks away), and sure enough the results show that the AVC version has a green tint:


While the VC-1 version returns almost a perfect gray (only 1% saturation), the AVC version returns a green (Hue 140°) at 4% saturation.

Is this a decoding problem?
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post #729 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post

They claimed that higher bitrate won't result in better quality.

And this comparison certainly hasn't proven the opposite. Even though the VC-1 version is softer by a hair there's no reason to believe that this is due to bitrate.
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post #730 of 2128 Old 06-03-2007, 04:35 PM
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Chris, if you don't see the red tint then you probably can't see any PQ improvements. Oh well.
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post #731 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Chris, if you don't see the red tint then you probably can't see any PQ improvements. Oh well.

Sometimes you guys really frustrate me. I've posted clear proof that there is no red tint but instead a green tint on the AVC.
Wanna talk about this? No? Why not?

Do you want me to average other frames as well? Do you not trust an averaging algorithm? Think your eyes are better than that?

Plus, what are you talking about me not seeing any PQ improvements? I've clearly stated that I think the AVC version looks more defined.
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post #732 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Indeed. These screenshots have disproved a number of claims made by certain insiders. Specifically Amir and Ben. They claimed that higher bitrate won't result in better quality. They claimed that AVC removes grain and detail. They claimed that VC1 is always transparent. All blatantly false. Shouldn't we be calling them out on this?

After Amir offered to bet somebody else on something, I offered to bet Amir $7500 on the transparency claims he made. Along with an offer of a $7500, or a higher number if he wanted to propose one, bet on his claim that there was no interest out there in doing any secondary tracks with lossless audio. Which I pretty much immediately said wasn't true and I would put my reputation on the line that it wasn't true. Since he made that claim I know of 2 studios that had enough interest to deliver it on releases in the US and 2 more who have done it in Japan. When insiders deceive it often takes people around here a while to gather enough evidence to realize or prove that readers here have been deceived. Some seem to rely on that time gap in hopes that it won't matter that their info was unreliable, at best.

On this subject people may find part of this post interesting:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9574026
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

Nope. We're the only of the three codecs that can reproduce the grain texture well. MPEG-2 gets block/overly sharp, and AVC just takes it out.

I've been hoping that we would get a VC-1 encode of Babel that we can compare, given that AVC was chosen for it and Amir's answer to that was:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9667134
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Paramount did not make the decision. Their post house did. The AVC encoder does a good job of filtering out noise so its encode in these cases doesn't need as much optimization. We preserve the grain/noise so at the same rate, one needs to spend a bit more time optimizing. The call was made to go with the AVC encode as a result.

We are not happy about such trade offs but it works the way it does.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #733 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

.....

Do you want me to average other frames as well?................

Yes, i would like a VC-1 BT.601 vs BT.709 average.

How can you be so sure that this scene was totally desaturated in the master ?
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post #734 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

Sometimes you guys really frustrate me. I've posted clear proof that there is no red tint but instead a green tint on the AVC.
Wanna talk about this? No? Why not?

So there's no red tint in the HD-DVD shots? Really? Hmm.


Do you know what a colorimeter is?

Quote:


Do you want me to average other frames as well? Do you not trust an averaging algorithm? Think your eyes are better than that?

If you want to. No. Probably.

Quote:


Plus, what are you talking about me not seeing any PQ improvements? I've clearly stated that I think the AVC version looks more defined.

Several posts ago:

Quote:


Posted by benes
They claimed that higher bitrate won't result in better quality.

Posted by Chris_TC
And this comparison certainly hasn't proven the opposite. Even though the VC-1 version is softer by a hair there's no reason to believe that this is due to bitrate.

This is one of the most bizarre statements I've heard. Why wouldn't the "58% bigger"tm filesize be the reason for the improved PQ? What other reason is there? Luck?
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post #735 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Cropped from the original .BMP file

BD



HD DVD
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post #736 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

Xylon -

As dr1394 pointed out, there is no difference in black & white (& grey) images. The differences would show up in skiin tones like in my linked example and even more extremely in some shades of green-blue. One of your first FooF examples looks like it might have some of that, but not the grey ones.

There used to be a site with some very good image examples and explanations of the bt709/601 problem but I've lost the link. Anybody know?

I think it had a bunch of flowers.

- Tom

PS - Thanks for all the work you've done here. This is a great thread.

I learn something new everyday. If thats the case (about B&W) I don't think this movie or Iowa Jima is the best movie to test this. I will have find another movie from both formats (AVC & VC-1) that doesn't use SPR cinematography.

Looking at both pictures I'm wondering which one is using the "correct tint"? Before the screenshots no one commented anything about biased tinting only when we do a side-by-side comparison we notice it.

I can do some experimentation using different codecs but that will take more time as it is. It would be much easier if someone from somewhere can post a direct still capture from the master. And decide once and for all what is the intended "tint".

Just one
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post #737 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I learn something new everyday. If thats the case (about B&W) I don't think this movie or Iowa Jima is the best movie to test this. I will have find another movie from both formats (AVS & VC-1) that doesn't use SPR cinematography.

Looking at both pictures I'm wondering which one is using the "correct tint"? Before the screenshots no one commented anything about biased tinting only when we do a side-by-side comparison we notice it.

I can do some experimentation using different codecs but that will take more time as it is. It would be much easier if someone from somewhere can post a direct still capture from the master. And decide once and for all what is the intended "tint".

Just one

Dunno what the answer is. Back when I made that conversion filter most peoples displays, if calibrated, were probably set up such that something like the DVD version of Video Essentials looked correct. But this would mean that, if not correctect, PC playback of ATSC HDTV would be a bit off.

Likewise your examples. If you take a supposedly BT709 screen cap and make an RGB jpeg out of it with no conversion then anybody set up for proper DVD BT601 color viewing may think the color is off by a bit. But that would be their problem, not yours, and I wouldn't start mass converting these images because of it.

I don't know what the proper answer is. People view video on many different setups but most everybody sees your web images on their PC's, however adjusted. I just suggested the color space issue in case some movies were improperly in BT.609 which you might find by trying my filter or other conversion on them. This would be especially true and interesting when the BD and HD DVD versions appear to be colored differently for some reason.

And of course we also get into the religious 'directors intent' debate. The Matrix will still be green no matter how you view it.

- Tom

edit: One other interesting test is to see if converting the video to BT601 makes it look more like the DVD coloring on whatever particular display setup you are using. It should (unless the conversion is already being done somewhere in you decoder chain).

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

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post #738 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dethis View Post

How can you be so sure that this scene was totally desaturated in the master ?

I'm not but the green tint seems both unnatural and unlikely. This isn't The Matrix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

So there's no red tint in the HD-DVD shots? Really? Hmm.

I've shown that the quasi B/W shots have a green tint on the AVC which may or may not be correct.
As for the shot with the guy in his office, once again neither of us know how the lighting was supposed to make this scene look.

But seeing how the quasi B/W shot is tinted green in AVC there's reason to believe that the office shot is tinted green as well, thus draining the warmth/redness and making the VC-1 look redder in comparison.
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post #739 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 07:11 AM
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Thank you for the plane shots, Xylon. You probably wouldn't be able to see the blocking in motion but it's kind of interesting to see how it's handled in each encode. I thought vc-1's deblocking would've kicked in and prevented this but I guess it's not that consistent.



Chris, I don't know what to tell you. Each of the HD-DVD shots has a red cast to it. We have an office scene, a night time scene (w/ fireworks), and a battle field on the beach. That crazy Clint Eastwood with his colors. What are the odds both versions are screwed up?
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post #740 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

What are the odds both versions are screwed up?

Not that small really. The truth might be in the middle, who knows.

I like both versions quality wise so I won't lose any sleep over this even though I'd love to know what the master looks like
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post #741 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

I'm not but the green tint seems both unnatural and unlikely. This isn't The Matrix.

I agree. The man's hand looks bluish in the bluray shot.

I think there is a difference in the colors between the two, but it does seem to be the bluray version that is incorrect, that bluish-green tinge drains the life from some parts of the frames.

Quote:


I've shown that the quasi B/W shots have a green tint on the AVC which may or may not be correct.

As for the shot with the guy in his office, once again neither of us know how the lighting was supposed to make this scene look.

I think your method was very sensible. And if anything, the office shot would have had more of a yellow/orange cast due to the incandescent lighting of the setting, rather than a greeny-blue cast that you see in the bluray version.

Quote:


But seeing how the quasi B/W shot is tinted green in AVC there's reason to believe that the office shot is tinted green as well, thus draining the warmth/redness and making the VC-1 look redder in comparison.

I agree with that assesment also.

And in summary, I would state categorically that there is almost no difference in detail between the two encodes at all.

It'll be very interesting to see future releases with much closer bitrates...
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post #742 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

But we are told that VC1 is actually the only codec that can preserve grain. Judge for yourself:

Nonsense - show me where Amir said that.

What I do know, is that the good VC1 encodes have preserved the image on screen much better in my view, than any other codecs at the same datarates.

And grain (which is just an artifact of film media, remember) does not usually end up turning into a horrible compression mess, the way it can with other codecs.
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post #743 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

Sometimes you guys really frustrate me. I've posted clear proof that there is no red tint but instead a green tint on the AVC.
Wanna talk about this? No? Why not?

Do you want me to average other frames as well? Do you not trust an averaging algorithm? Think your eyes are better than that?

Plus, what are you talking about me not seeing any PQ improvements? I've clearly stated that I think the AVC version looks more defined.

Are the original pictures supposed to be neutral grayscale images?

Looks to me like the screen caps actually are colored. The camo on the vehicles in the water clearly show olive green, tan, and brown to me. Although the sky appears grey the soldiers' uniforms in the beach shot have a slight olive drab tint. The plants in the foreground have some color too. I would expect the images to be slightly green because of the camo and desaturated looking sky.

Did you crop out the soldiers' uniforms somehow when you averaged the image? Where did the green in the VC-1 version go?
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post #744 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 01:11 PM
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post #745 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I agree. The man's hand looks bluish in the bluray shot.

I think there is a difference in the colors between the two, but it does seem to be the bluray version that is incorrect, that bluish-green tinge drains the life from some parts of the frames.

I think your method was very sensible. And if anything, the office shot would have had more of a yellow/orange cast due to the incandescent lighting of the setting, rather than a greeny-blue cast that you see in the bluray version.

I agree with that assesment also.

And in summary, I would state categorically that there is almost no difference in detail between the two encodes at all.

It'll be very interesting to see future releases with much closer bitrates...

There is definitely a difference in detail in the two encodes with the nod going to AVC.

You can't harp in artifacts in MPEG2 when it compares unfavorably to blu ray and then claim that when AVC has similar improvements over VC1 that it is "almost no difference in detail".

Now whether the difference can be "seen" under normal viewing is another issue, but apparently not one for discussion in this thread.
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post #746 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chau808 View Post

Did you crop out the soldiers' uniforms somehow when you averaged the image? Where did the green in the VC-1 version go?

No, I averaged pretty much the entire frame. A little bit of green here and there will be canceled out by e.g. the sky.

However, since we know that the sky shouldn't be green, I'll average only the sky portion of the frame and compare again. Give me a minute.
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post #747 of 2128 Old 06-04-2007, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

However, since we know that the sky shouldn't be green, I'll average only the sky portion of the frame and compare again. Give me a minute.

Well, that was not totally conclusive. Averaging only the sky portion gives me:

VC-1: HSB = 170° / 3% / 57%*
AVC: HSB = 150° / 4% / 57%**

*170° is very close to cyan but still lies within a range that's slightly green. Saturation is 3%.
**150° is clearly green and slightly more saturated, at 4%.
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post #748 of 2128 Old 06-05-2007, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

How many times can you be proven wrong before we call a spade a spade? Heres some more. A lot of people have complained about banding in VC1. We even have screenshots comparing to broadcast caps to show the difference. (Planet Earth) Of course the response is that it was in the master.

And a lot of people also complain about VC1 filtering grain and softening the image. But we are told that VC1 is actually the only codec that can preserve grain. Judge for yourself:
(Screenshots courtesy of House)

MPEG-2 cap
VC1 HD DVD

MPEG-2 cap
VC1 HD DVD

MPEG-2 cap
VC1 HD DVD

I hate that kind of softening! it takes away presence and thats the most important thing in the picture.
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post #749 of 2128 Old 06-05-2007, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I'll look it up for you. There were at least two credible reviewers who admitted that they had been more lenient on Bluray releases in their reviews due to Bluray having a poor start.

This is not exactly a secret...

How's that going? Find it yet?
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post #750 of 2128 Old 06-06-2007, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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