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Old 06-06-2007, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:04 PM
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Virtually identical except the vc-1 slightly softer in the action shot and has artifacts if you look really closely.

I hate to say it but I'm kind of tired of these movies with highly manipulated color pallettes. For every colorful movie with high key lighting there seems to be 10 that are desaturated, contrasty, tinted, etc. I know Flags is a war movie but I wish we could see some new visual ideas.
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:12 PM
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...tweaked on Ecstacy vision effect?

Margot Robbie is THE most exquisite human creature on the face of the planet, in this moment in time.
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:52 PM
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Yeah, they could hand out pills in the theater.
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Old 06-06-2007, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post


I hate to say it but I'm kind of tired of these movies with highly manipulated color pallettes. For every colorful movie with high key lighting there seems to be 10 that are desaturated, contrasty, tinted, etc. I know Flags is a war movie but I wish we could see some new visual ideas.

Yes I agree

There has been a little to much now with the degraded Saving private ryan look now on war movies.

But its effective to make the footage look older or like desert movies that they make the movie warmer.

If it works, sure go for it, but we have seen a little to much desaturated WW2 movies now. Of course that applies to CG Superhero movies to...


As for the pictures. They are so alike, the only way o se the difference is to pause and zoom. So I would say they both seem fine.
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:14 PM
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Does anyone have a link to BRD list that shows the encoding type for each movie? I've been trying to decide between HD-DVD and Blu-ray and it appears from reading this thread, for past releases HD-DVD movie quality is more consistent and on average better than Blu-ray. How many of the Blu-ray releases are encoded in MPEG2 compared to VC-1 and AVC? What about future Blu-ray releases?
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:30 PM
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Received my copy of the Prestige HD-DVD and decided to bust out the Blu-Ray for a comparison.

The HD is VC1, and the BD is AVC. The video elementary stream for the HD is 17,540,684,923 bytes, the BD is 22,547,896,878 bytes.

HD;

BD;


HD;

BD;


HD;

BD;
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:31 PM
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HD;

BD;


HD;

BD;


HD;

BD;


The differences are there if you look extremely closely but are fairly minor depending on your POV. I doubt you'd see them in motion even with a large screen + projector. If there's any other places in the movie you want me to take shots of, just say so (with a rough timestamp). Based on the above though you're going to have to activate super extreme nitpicking mode.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

Received my copy of the Prestige HD-DVD and decided to bust out the Blu-Ray for a comparison.

The HD is VC1, and the BD is AVC. The video elementary stream for the HD is 17,540,684,923 bytes, the BD is 22,547,896,878 bytes.

[...]

thanks for the screenshots, i added them to the mouseover-comparisons
» http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/theprest...-vs-hd/01.html

The HD DVD is the one released in the UK by Warner Home Video, isn't it? If yes, has it German audio?
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msv View Post

The HD DVD is the one released in the UK by Warner Home Video, isn't it? If yes, has it German audio?

Yes, by Warner.

Audio is DD+ English, Castilian, French, German. Subs are English, Castilian, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Norwegian, and Swedish.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

Yes, by Warner.

Audio is DD+ English, Castilian, French, German. Subs are English, Castilian, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Norwegian, and Swedish.

great, thanks a lot
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Old 06-07-2007, 05:36 PM
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The Prestige shots are close enough for me. Where's Rdjam to say "see, I told you! Vc-1 is equal to avc at a high bitrate!!!"
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The Prestige shots are close enough for me. Where's Rdjam to say "see, I told you! Vc-1 is equal to avc at a high bitrate!!!"

I agree - the picture quality on these two releases is exactly identical.

And the AVC encode at 22.54 Gigs has a 28.5 % advantage in bit budget over the VC1 encode at 17.54 Gigs.

So what we are seeing so far is a very slight difference in PQ when AVC has 57% more bit budget than VC1 - yet absolutely no difference at all when AVC has nearly 30% more bit budget than VC1.

I think my point still stands, thank you

The only piece left in the puzzle is to see VC1 and AVC compared at the same bit budget...
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:46 PM
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What happened to the transparency argument? If the vc-1 encode is already good as it gets then how can the avc encode be any better?

Maybe in this case vc-1 is actually achieving that magic of transparency to the master since the source doesn't appear to be grainy/difficult. Pretty codec friendly material.

The difference between the encodes of Flags was more than a little slight in that beach scene.
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Old 06-07-2007, 07:55 PM
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msv View Post

thanks for the screenshots, i added them to the mouseover-comparisons
» http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/theprest...-vs-hd/01.html

The HD DVD is the one released in the UK by Warner Home Video, isn't it? If yes, has it German audio?

Looking at the shots of the Prestige the AVC encode shows more texture. Look at example 3. The trees in the forest are more defined while the vc-1 encode looks softer, especially the trees in the far background. In example 6 the texture on the jacket is crisper on the AVC version. In example 7 there is some minor blocking on face in the vc-1 version. Also a lot of face detail is a removed in example 7 on the vc-1 version. Overall the AVC encode is more finely resolved.

Rack another one up for AVC.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:16 PM
 
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As usual. More bitrate + More space = better product. How anyone can say otherwise is silly.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:36 PM
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Eh. The difference is so slight on the trees and the jacket. It's not a dramatic improvement but it's there. So yeah, avc or vc-1 + more bitrate = better.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JackBee View Post

As usual. More bitrate + More space = better product. How anyone can say otherwise is silly.

"better" can be subjective. If it costs 2~4x as much to get a 3% boost in performance (sometimes slightly better, sometimes even worse) - virtually the same performance, calling a more expensive thing "better" is debatable.

Both versions could be playing side by side on identical and calibrated HD displays, and they would be indistinguishable. It's not about the format, it's what the encoders and compressionists and artists do with it.

But the format war won't be decided based on tiny microblocks and video codecs. It will come down to price and content, and even then we may end up with only dual format players like with DVD-A, SACD, DTS-A, and the other hi-res formats.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

"better" can be subjective. If it costs 2~4x as much to get a 3% boost in performance (sometimes slightly better, sometimes even worse) - virtually the same performance, calling a more expensive thing "better" is debatable.

Both versions could be playing side by side on identical and calibrated HD displays, and they would be indistinguishable. It's not about the format, it's what the encoders and compressionists and artists do with it.

But the format war won't be decided based on tiny microblocks and video codecs. It will come down to price and content, and even then we may end up with only dual format players like with DVD-A, SACD, DTS-A, and the other hi-res formats.


You want to talk about costs? What costs more:

a) Compressionist using VC-1 and hand tuning each and every scene one by one to keep the bitrate as low as possible to fit the disc its going into and then if it exceeds the size, go back and lower the quality of scenes till you get it to fit the disc, over and over again

or

b) Compressionist set the encoding software to NEVER fall below 30 and go as high as 40 if needed and then come in to make sure it looks good and then turn it in.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBee View Post

You want to talk about costs? What costs more:

a) Compressionist using VC-1 and hand tuning each and every scene one by one to keep the bitrate as low as possible to fit the disc its going into and then if it exceeds the size, go back and lower the quality of scenes till you get it to fit the disc, over and over again

or

b) Compressionist set the encoding software to NEVER fall below 30 and go as high as 40 if needed and then come in to make sure it looks good and then turn it in.

I doubt that with a BD AVC encode they simply "set the dial" and walk away. Encoding movies in lossy formats is always going to be time consuming if you want to get good results. Even with the "plumpest" of these formats you are discarding 95% of the data and that is going to take some hand tweaking.

Arguing that VC1 requires vastly more hand tuning than AVC or MPEG2 to get the same results is a weak argument.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:38 PM
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I rather have a box or program handling the encoding with the quality set to high rather than some guy who is told to make it as compact and "efficient" as possible. Tweaking didn't get even get us equal quality with Flags.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:07 PM
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Wait, so you truly believe that the BD release was simply the result of "a box or program handling the encoding"? Do you REALLY think that there was no hand-tuning by compressionists for the AVC Blu-ray version? You actually believe that, for real???

As for the folks claiming the BD AVC version of THE PRESITGE is clearly superior to the VC1 version, you are the ones who are kidding yourselves.

The screenshots do show slight differences, but are they real world quality differences?

No, not at all. The two just look ever so slightly different when frozen and blown up, with neither one looking any "better" then the other, just slightly different. Anybody who claims that one looks notably BETTER than the other is just indulging themselves in fanboyish favoritism, nothing more.

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Old 06-08-2007, 12:05 AM
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No, I don't believe that the avc encodes were the result of a box or program. I'm sure there was some tweaking to get it down to a usable file size (22gb is kind of low). I would just prefer a box or program set to high over some software guy's idea of what is good enough. Both formats and all 3 codecs have suffered from that kind of mentality.

I'll agree that the differences in the Prestige shots are subtle at best. No where close to the differences in some of the mpeg-2 vs vc-1 comparisons, or even some of the Flags of Our Fathers shots.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Filtered or not enough bits? Well, with 10 fewer gbs to play with something has to give. The horizontal lines are either softened or completely gone in the vc-1 shot. Disappointing. VC-1 is the mpeg-2 here.


There are differences all through-out the night screengrab. Really too many to go thru. The frieze at the top of the stadium, the people on the field, the crowd, etc. The avc shot has dramatically better compression compared to the vc-1. IMO, it's a lot like the difference between a lower medium quality and a near high quality jpeg. While most people won't notice or care about these improvements which would you rather pay for?

It's ironic that the HD-DVD version seems to have a red cast to it. How did that get in there?

Hey I think VC-1 actually did a pretty impressive job here given the bitrate constraints of the HD-DVD format. Obviously the high bitrate AVC is superior, but still a decent showing from VC-1.

VC-1 on HD-DVD always looks artificially smoothed to me. Like its been run through several passes of noise filtering and then had the contrast bumped to make up for it.

I really wish that we had this movie done in VC-1 at higher Blu-ray bitrates to really compare.

Anyway, great posts everyone, much appreciated.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Hey I think VC-1 actually did a pretty impressive job here given the bitrate constraints of the HD-DVD format. Obviously the high bitrate AVC is superior, but still a decent showing from VC-1.

VC-1 on HD-DVD always looks artificially smoothed to me. Like its been run through several passes of noise filtering and then had the contrast bumped to make up for it.

I really wish that we had this movie done in VC-1 at higher Blu-ray bitrates to really compare.

Anyway, great posts everyone, much appreciated.


The problem is with so small differences that you must pause and zoom to really detect them. I would say its a non issue. When every image flash before you in 23,976fps your eyes have really no way notice them. Do you really se any mpeg2 macroblocks on the first BD25. Nope, it happens to fast (maybe on 1 or 2 titles)

If you watch a 10 second sequense you get 1920*1080*24*10=497664000

And if you pause a frame for 10 seconds you have 1920*1080=2073600

497,66 M-pixel information vs 2,07 M-Pixel information for eyes to process.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post


I'll agree that the differences in the Prestige shots are subtle at best. No where close to the differences in some of the mpeg-2 vs vc-1 comparisons, or even some of the Flags of Our Fathers shots.


And really all that proves is that these comparison shots will always have margin of error, simply because of the different people doing each encode, various settings, time constrains, mood of the compressionist, weather, sun position (kidding) etc.

I bet, if someone really cared, they could find a scene in flags that looked better on HD DVD than BD. I am sure at least one frame exists where that is true. But the bottom line is, who cares?

The differences are incredibly negligible. And that, ultimately, seems to be the verdict of these shots.

BD's disc capacity (more hours on a disc) is a much much bigger advantage over HD DVD than bitrate. That much is clear now.

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBee View Post

You want to talk about costs? What costs more:

a) Compressionist using VC-1 and hand tuning each and every scene one by one to keep the bitrate as low as possible to fit the disc its going into and then if it exceeds the size, go back and lower the quality of scenes till you get it to fit the disc, over and over again

or

b) Compressionist set the encoding software to NEVER fall below 30 and go as high as 40 if needed and then come in to make sure it looks good and then turn it in.

Please tell me how Bob Mckenzie, a 43 year old with 2 kids, who lives in a trailer park somewhere in nebraska, walks into his Costco buying movies gives a flying frog turd about that?

BTW, comprssionists have posted on this forum, and that's not how it is done. They set a bitrate budget outright, based on audio tracks and extras, from the beginning. Then after that, they go back and massage scenes to look better. And guess what? It's done that way on both formats!

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Old 06-08-2007, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Meatpopsicle View Post

...
BTW, comprssionists have posted on this forum, and that's not how it is done. They set a bitrate budget outright, based on audio tracks and extras, from the beginning. Then after that, they go back and massage scenes to look better. And guess what? It's done that way on both formats!

But in almost all cases there will be less remaining work to be done if they can set a higher bitrate budget for the first passes.

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Old 06-08-2007, 05:50 AM
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Would someone mind doing screenshot comparisons of the times when the Prestige on BD goes to ~40 mbps on BD and compare it to the same scene in the Warner VC-1 HD DVD version?

I'm guessing the reason why many of those shots in the mouseover comparison look very similar is because they just plain don't require an extensive bit budget... There are some scenes that hit the Blu Ray bandwidth cap, and I'd be interested to see how the same scenes look on HD DVD.

If you need a timestamp, please let me know.
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