Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inurenegade View Post

Xylon do you happen to have screenshot comparisons of King Kong open matte H.264 that aired on premire HD ? id really like to see that measured up against the HD DVD

Found it. First page is now updated to include the H.264 version of King Kong.
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post #92 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 02:55 AM
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Upper right hand corner. Everything is more defined on the BRD encode: lines on the building, railing, etc. The h.264 is less grainy but you can see that there's a tradeoff.
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post #93 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 03:02 AM
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xylon's doing a great job in this thread. nice work fella!
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post #94 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire

11.20 GB*9.20 Mbps........................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ........................................................19.5 0 GB
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post #95 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

it's difficult to know what you're talking about with your continued use of non-technical terms. there is clearly more detail in the mpeg2 frame as compared to the vc-1 frame, as has been noted by most posters to this thread.

The only one who notes this is you. And you apparently don't understand that perceived sharpness and detail are not the same thing.
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post #96 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

It is loaded with artifacts but why are the points on the "star" much punchier in mpeg-2? What's going on there?


I looks like VC-1 may have a gradient filter running, where the color scale is changed to a smoother transition. The VC-1 has nearly perfect gradation, while the MPEG-2 shows pixels with great contrast.
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post #97 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_TC View Post

The only one who notes this is you.

read through the thread again, it has been noted by nearly everyone.
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post #98 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

I looks like VC-1 may have a gradient filter running, where the color scale is changed to a smoother transition. The VC-1 has nearly perfect gradation, while the MPEG-2 shows pixels with great contrast.

As has been noted in other threads, this aspect of VC-1 seemingly becomes even more pronounced under constrained bitrate conditions. That factor may not have been present with MI3, in contrast to so many Warner titles.
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post #99 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 05:21 AM
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As I guy that plays with edge enhancment and sharpness very often. I would say that the mpeg2 shoot shows that it has some form of sharpening not that it resolves any more detail.

But thats a common misstake to beleive that sharpening is more resolution.

Haloing as mention before is a result of edge enhancment, not sharpening.

EDIT
http://www.thisishddvd.com/whatisvc1.aspx
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post #100 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

As I guy that plays with edge enhancment and sharpness very often. I would say that the mpeg2 shoot shows that it has some form of sharpening not that it resolves any more detail.

But thats a common misstake to beleive that sharpening is more resolution.

Haloing as mention before is a result of edge enhancment, not sharpening.

That star does not show any edge enhancement.
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post #101 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

That star does not show any edge enhancement.

I wasnt saying it used any edge enhancment, i was saying it used sharpening.

EE will show more haloing.
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post #102 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

The average "Grain" in a typical 35 mm film frame is roughly equivalent to 20 megapixels in detail.

Source, please. We are talking motion picture negative not 35mm stills.
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post #103 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Haloing as mention before is a result of edge enhancment, not sharpening.[/url]

EE is a form of sharpening!
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post #104 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

That star does not show any edge enhancement.

Where does that star come from? Message #? Really hard to go back through this thread with all the huge images.
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post #105 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 06:17 AM
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message 12, middle top of the frame.
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post #106 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

But thats a common misstake to beleive that sharpening is more resolution.

if you can't see more detail in the mpeg2 encoded star as opposed to the vc-1 encoded star it's difficult to know what you're looking at.

Quote:


Haloing as mention before is a result of edge enhancment, not sharpening.

EDIT
http://www.thisishddvd.com/whatisvc1.aspx

the pic used on that site is at odds with what we're seeing in this thread.
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post #107 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 06:27 AM
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If you zoom in on the trunk to the point where you can see the blocks of pixels, VC-1 is a lot cleaner. Strange how the MPEG image seems sharper with all the garbage it is carrying. It would be interesting to see how they compare in a scene with closely spaced lines. When you look at the key slot, MPEG has it made up of several different square objects.

BTW, how do we know any difference in this scene is not simply the compressionists' choices? MPEG may have maxed their peak BW, VC-1 let it be "typical"
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post #108 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 06:30 AM
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Compare the motion blur around Tom Cruise: The Blu-ray capture displays way more compression noise.

http://xylon.haloapplications.com/fo...mpossible3/01/
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post #109 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

if you can't see more detail in the mpeg2 encoded star as opposed to the vc-1 encoded star it's difficult to know what you're looking at.


That is the most tangible, most specific, and clearest example of a difference in result that I have seen.
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post #110 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 07:07 AM
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well this all confirms what I have been thinking all along, VC-1 isnt as sharp as it should be! I have seen much better HD then HD-DVD in the lines of sharpness so I hope there is a way to make VC-1 sharp or I will have to get myself a bluray player.
when watching HD-DVD I have the sharpness set to MAX on my projektor to be able to get a good HD experience.

I bought HD-DVD to get sharp movies, not to get blurry ones like badly made DVDs.
sure a mpeg 2 encoding doesnt get rid of grain and that makes it less real looking too, so the real answer here is that the perfect HD enoding isnt here yet since you cant have the best of both worlds.
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post #111 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

That is the most tangible, most specific, and clearest example of a difference in result that I have seen.

...although in fairness, it doesn't necessarily mean anything about VC-1 as a codec.
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post #112 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 08:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

xylon's doing a great job in this thread. nice work fella!

Agreed. Excellent work, Xylon!
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post #113 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beagle five View Post

well this all confirms what I have been thinking all along, VC-1 isnt as sharp as it should be! I have seen much better HD then HD-DVD in the lines of sharpness so I hope there is a way to make VC-1 sharp or I will have to get myself a bluray player.
when watching HD-DVD I have the sharpness set to MAX on my projektor to be able to get a good HD experience.

I bought HD-DVD to get sharp movies, not to get blurry ones like badly made DVDs.
sure a mpeg 2 encoding doesnt get rid of grain and that makes it less real looking too, so the real answer here is that the perfect HD enoding isnt here yet since you cant have the best of both worlds.

One of the benefits of hi-def to me is the "quietness" of the picture. If all the small artifacts that appear in the BD version (but not the HD) create noise in a moving picture, then static shots don't help.
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post #114 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt View Post

if you can't see more detail in the mpeg2 encoded star as opposed to the vc-1 encoded star it's difficult to know what you're looking at.

Because what you think you see in the mpeg2 isnt more details, but sharpend details.

It shows to much alising.

Shall try make some better example, later in the week, but I must go to work now.
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post #115 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 08:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beagle five View Post

when watching HD-DVD I have the sharpness set to MAX on my projektor to be able to get a good HD experience.

Not to be rude, but that sentence alone is enough to damage your credibility (when it comes to PQ) with a lot of the members around here. If you're really setting your sharpness controls to MAX (and weren't just using hyperbole,) you're introducing so much crap into your image that there's no way you could accurately judge the quality of a given title.
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post #116 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Not to be rude, but that sentence alone is enough to damage your credibility (when it comes to PQ) with a lot of the members around here. If you're really setting your sharpness controls to MAX (and weren't just using hyperbole,) you're introducing so much crap into your image that there's no way you could accurately judge the quality of a given title.

You beat me to the punch here. I was thinking the same thing.

I have my Mitsu HC5000 projector set at -5 sharpness. The lesser sharpness is usually the better when it comes to displays, as well as preserving the life of the display.

Not sure if this holds true w/ projectors...?
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post #117 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 09:53 AM
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I'm not so sure the MPEG-2 version was sharpened. VC1 and AVC have in-loop filtering that kick in when the encoders get under stress, but MPEG-2 does not. That was an obviously stressful scene and you sort of have to decide whether artifacts (blocks & mosquito noise) or filtering is preferable. The nicer alternative when available is to use a better codec, a cleaner more compressible source, or allocate more bits.

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post #118 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 09:59 AM
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Better than vc-1?! Blasphemy for even considering the possibility!

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
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post #119 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 10:21 AM
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@Xylon,

could you inform us about the bitrate used on those scenes by both codecs?
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post #120 of 2128 Old 04-03-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Because what you think you see in the mpeg2 isnt more details, but sharpend details.

It shows to much alising.

Shall try make some better example, later in the week, but I must go to work now.

i look forward to your example. for now though i would say that i don't see any evidence of sharpening in the mpeg2 image, though there is certainly blocking in some areas of high motion. in the specific instance of the star there seems to be information in the mpeg2 image that is not present in the vc-1 image. this has not been introduced by sharpening, it is simply there or it is not (the spokes of the star haven't been created by a fault in the mpeg2 algorithm, since the possibility of that happening in just the correct way is astronomically unlikely). it would be fascinating to see the orriginal frame from the d5 master to compare to these two encodes and see what alterations have been introduced.
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