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post #1411 of 2128 Old 01-31-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

Some of the best-rated (by multiple venues) Blu-rays have been MPEG-2, just as some of the worst HD DVDs have been VC1.
Well, if we remove the VC1 team members and the blind followers from the VC1 vs AVC debate, we get...let's see...carry the 1...solve for x...yep, zero actual testimonials.

Knee jerk response?

Actually, the fella from Doom9 who has been running codec comparisons (golgot13?) readily states that the high bitrate VC1 encodes take better advantage of VC1s strengths.

As for Mpeg2? Let's give it up... Sure, some mpeg2 encodes can look gorgeous... until things start to move - and then, especially if you've got decent audio thrown in, it gets rather messy. Doesn't belong in the discussion at all, IMO.
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post #1412 of 2128 Old 01-31-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Actually, the fella from Doom9 who has been running codec comparisons (golgot13?) readily states that the high bitrate VC1 encodes take better advantage of VC1s strengths.

Better than AVC at identical bitrate, or just better than VC-1's lower bitrate self?

I'm not trying to bug you, it's just that I took it to mean the latter, which doesn't prove anything.
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post #1413 of 2128 Old 01-31-2008, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Flags Of Our Fathers

32.90 GB AVC ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................20.80 GB VC-1
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post #1414 of 2128 Old 01-31-2008, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Blind test?


Nah. PNG files are too big between the codecs. So never mind that

Anyways more Mpeg2 vs VC-1 and AVC vs VC-1. You know the usual
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post #1415 of 2128 Old 01-31-2008, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

it's just that I took it to mean the latter, which doesn't prove anything.

Same here.

Brandon
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post #1416 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Underworld

36.20 GB AVC ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................22.60 GB VC-1
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post #1417 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I don't think we should be cheering when studios intentionally release sub-par material only to try to get us to buy it again when the "remastered" version comes out some years later.

There's little excuse for these movies to not be getting fresh masters for BD release at this point.

Especially when a relatively recent SD re-release had many extras not found on the original release.

Welcome to the world of Fox Blu-ray.

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post #1418 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer

23.70 GB AVC ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................14.90 GB VC-1
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post #1419 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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As you noticed the gamma is a bit higher on HD DVD in regards to FF4:SS. I did all the usual troubleshoothing to find out if my software is doing this unmatched levels. So I went back to Flags of our Fathers files to verify (about time too. I'm not personally satisfied with the "tinting" going on with the first sets I posted) and the levels matched. My conclusion is that the HD DVDs level is a bit higher than the usual 16-235. An error perhaps from the encoder?

For the sake of accuracy I did not try to match levels. I left the screengrabs as it is. I leave it up to you to work on them.

BTW I'm using BT.709 on all screenshots. For those who care
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post #1420 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 06:17 AM
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@Xylon, I'm wondering which country is the Underworld VC-1 HD DVD from? Or is it Underworld Evolution?
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post #1421 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 07:13 AM
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HD DVD of FF2 looks smoother. I know it's not particularly attractive grain (more like noise really) on FF2, whatever it is, HD DVD isn't preserving it. Need more shots to see if that actually translates to anything detail wise though.

Same thing with Underworld. If you look at the background, there's no difference. Look at her face though, the HD DVD is slightly smoother.

Didn't see anything notcieable on that FooF shot (although I'm sure Kram and company will come riding in here in a second and dig up the old screenshots )
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post #1422 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

@Xylon, I'm wondering which country is the Underworld VC-1 HD DVD from? Or is it Underworld Evolution?

Underworld (Extended Cut) Part 1 German HD DVD release - this is the one I have.

There is also a Dutch HD DVD release BUT its the Theatrical Version.

Underworld Evolution or the sequel is the Spanish HD DVD release.
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post #1423 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

HD DVD of FF2 looks smoother. I know it's not particularly attractive grain (more like noise really) on FF2, whatever it is, HD DVD isn't preserving it. Need more shots to see if that actually translates to anything detail wise though.

Same thing with Underworld. If you look at the background, there's no difference. Look at her face though, the HD DVD is slightly smoother.

Didn't see anything notcieable on that FooF shot (although I'm sure Kram and company will come riding in here in a second and dig up the old screenshots )



Do you notice any color tinting on BD or HD DVD from FooF? I personally see nothing but still I need a confirmation.
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post #1424 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Underworld (Extended Cut) Part 1 German HD DVD release - this is the one I have.

Oh, I thought that one would be AVC. My fault...
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post #1425 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 07:57 AM
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Hmmm nope, no colour tint on the BD or HD. They look the same.
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post #1426 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

Hmmm nope, no colour tint on the BD or HD. They look the same.

Thanks. That all I need to know

I pretty much use completely different hardware (videocard) and software (drivers,players,filters,renderers) versions this time.
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post #1427 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Actually, the fella from Doom9 who has been running codec comparisons (golgot13?) readily states that the high bitrate VC1 encodes take better advantage of VC1s strengths.

Not from what I see:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgot13 View Post

About me.

I never say that BluRay is better or bad: you can se my old post
for HDDVD interactivity, I always said it really a good job from MS.
I don't make any propaganda for a format, BD or HDDVD (I prefer HDi).

But I want that all people say the truth about VC1 quality.

What I can say: it's hard to open eyes at some people about VC1.

H264 is better than VC1 (MS never prouve it's wrong), and it will be much better
(see developpment of MPEG2 encoder since last ten years).


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post #1428 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

HD DVD of FF2 looks smoother. I know it's not particularly attractive grain (more like noise really) on FF2, whatever it is, HD DVD isn't preserving it. Need more shots to see if that actually translates to anything detail wise though.

Agreed. Not a good comparison shot, since a lot of the backgrounds are out of focus to begin with. The foreground stuff all looks about the same, though, aside from the weird gamma levels on the HD DVD. The difference in grain preservation looks better on the Blu-ray, but that's not producing much in terms of visual aesthetic payoff in that shot (and even here it could be the gamma levels throwing off our perception).

Quote:


Same thing with Underworld. If you look at the background, there's no difference. Look at her face though, the HD DVD is slightly smoother.

I can see a difference in the level of detail in Kate Beckinsale's face in that shot. There's definitely better grain preservation on the Blu-ray.

Quote:


Didn't see anything notcieable on that FooF shot (although I'm sure Kram and company will come riding in here in a second and dig up the old screenshots )

I don't see any difference in that shot either. You wouldn't expect there to be, though, as there isn't much motion in that scene.

Also, is it my imagination, or does Flags of Our Fathers look like it's had some DNR applied? Everything looks ever so slightly softer than it should for a recently mastered film, and there's not much grain.
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post #1429 of 2128 Old 02-01-2008, 11:24 PM
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Underworld @ 2x
Blu-ray............................................................ .......................HD DVD


I was wondering: would these differences be more or less noticeable in motion? I don't have an HD DVD player, so I can't compare these things myself.

FWIW, I like grain.
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post #1430 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post


I was wondering: would these differences be more or less noticeable in motion? I don't have an HD DVD player, so I can't compare these things myself.

FWIW, I like grain.

You wont notice the difference while they are in motion.
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post #1431 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Underworld Evolutions

17.70 GB Mpeg-2 ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................17.60 GB VC-1
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post #1432 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 04:56 AM
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Looks like the gamma levels in the HD DVD is slightly higher.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #1433 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 05:02 AM
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Pan's Labyrinth U.K Blu-ray bit rate reading sample clips.

Clip-1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZZDOqERyuU
Clip-2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AjyEbP0zKE

PQ is miles ahead of the U.S version.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #1434 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 08:50 AM
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Underworld "won" quite a while back.




"The mpeg-2 version is fighting to stay alive in that shot. The dust particles and the wall texture are just too much to handle for the encoder. Vc-1 is comfy at this bitrate, mpeg-2 is starved. I know, it sucks." -- Kram Sacul



"The face in the Blu-Ray version of Underworld Evolution is a macroblocking mess!" -- FrancescoP
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post #1435 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

I was wondering: would these differences be more or less noticeable in motion? I don't have an HD DVD player, so I can't compare these things myself.

FWIW, I like grain.

I think any scene with fast motion and a lot of action is a better stress test for bitrate comparisons. Or are you simply asking if the subtle differences in these screen shots will actually show up while watching the movie?

Brandon
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post #1436 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I think any scene with fast motion and a lot of action is a better stress test for bitrate comparisons. Or are you simply asking if the subtle differences in these screen shots will actually show up while watching the movie?

Brandon

I meant the latter.

What would be nice is if we could have full motion, uncompressed AVI comparisons, cropped down to a 640x480 area and just a couple seconds long. (to save on filesize and CPU encoding/decoding) We watch movies at full speed, not paused, so it'd make sense to do this kind of comparison on occasion. I would appreciate it so very much and I'm sure others would too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

You wont notice the difference while they are in motion.

I mean no disrespect, but I'd still like to see for myself. Kind of like how, in this thread, we post screenshots for people to decide for themselves.
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post #1437 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

I meant the latter.

What would be nice is if we could have full motion, uncompressed AVI comparisons, cropped down to a 640x480 area and just a couple seconds long. (to save on filesize and CPU encoding/decoding) We watch movies at full speed, not paused, so it'd make sense to do this kind of comparison on occasion. I would appreciate it so very much and I'm sure others would too.

Kind of like the clips on this page? Hey, it was made by our good friend mhafner. Maybe he can do a HD version.
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post #1438 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 02:22 PM
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Yeah, that's what I'm asking for, only of an HD source and CROPPED, of course (bandwidth and CPU screaming in pain)
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post #1439 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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post #1440 of 2128 Old 02-02-2008, 05:55 PM
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Shadow detailing better in the HD DVD version. Check the left hand side face of the man standing near the board.

Did anyone check my post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post13007254 ?

Thanks to all the HD gurus for highlighting the DNR issue in PL.

Blu-ray : 340
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