Why would anyone be against dual format players?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Aside from technical / performance issues, why are some people criticizing and downplaying the significance of dual format players? I sense this from Blu-Ray supporters for some reason. I don't get a sense that the HD-DVD camp is unhappy, so why is the BD side reacting negatively? Dual format players don't hurt BD in any way, and can only help increase their sales (ditto for HD-DVD). What am I missing?

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post #2 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:36 AM
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Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral. If the announcement was that Toshiba was going dual format, I think the BD side would greet the news much more positively.

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post #3 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by xradman View Post

Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral. If the announcement was that Toshiba was going dual format, I think the BD side would greet the news much more positively.

Yes they would, but would consider it a nail in the coffin as, maybe some HD DVD supporters do for the reverse.

Many of us have been against dual format from the beginning as we felt that one format was better for the medium.

However, I am beginning to feel that the likelihood of coexistence may be strong in which case combo players would certainly be the way to go.

Because of the PS3 and other factors, Blu-ray is not going anywhere for quite awhile. However the same may be true for HD DVD. There could be a solid enough install base at this point. Who knows.
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post #4 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:49 AM
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Simple. Dual Format players keep the HD-DVD format alive. Most Sony aficionados simply do not want that. This is extremely evident from the PS3 crowd.

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post #5 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:50 AM
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I think the dual-format approach is going to keep costs of the disks higher. If everyone could agree on one format then US THE CONSUMER could see cheaper disks from larger production of a specific format. I have to think WB neutrality support costs money and slows down release schedules.

However, at the end of the day if things stay neutral then I will conform. I'm not going to throw myself on a sword for either one of these formats.
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post #6 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:53 AM
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If dual-format players become the norm, I could see some format-neutral companies starting to release only HD DVDs for some titles, because they are cheaper.
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post #7 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xradman View Post

Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral. If the announcement was that Toshiba was going dual format, I think the BD side would greet the news much more positively.

But why would they care that they've gone neutral? They are still supporting BD.

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post #8 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

But why would they care that they've gone neutral? They are still supporting BD.

BD exclusive --> HD/BD neutral is a huge blow for the Blu-ray group, because it acknowledges that Blu-ray isn't headed for a quick win. Instead, the hi-def format war is headed where many of us predicted it would be headed: To a format stalemate.

This is a huge step. And when the prices for dual-format players become affordable (<$300), the format war is dead. (This is assuming HD DVD players aren't $129 by then.)

This would effectively make the PS3 (and the Xbox 360's HD DVD add-on) obsolete as a hi-def optical disc player.
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post #9 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Sketcha View Post

Yes they would, but would consider it a nail in the coffin as, maybe some HD DVD supporters do for the reverse.

Many of us have been against dual format from the beginning as we felt that one format was better for the medium.

However, I am beginning to feel that the likelihood of coexistence may be strong in which case combo players would certainly be the way to go.

Because of the PS3 and other factors, Blu-ray is not going anywhere for quite awhile. However the same may be true for HD DVD. There could be a solid enough install base at this point. Who knows.


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post #10 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.VOID View Post

I think the dual-format approach is going to keep costs of the disks higher. If everyone could agree on one format then US THE CONSUMER could see cheaper disks from larger production of a specific format. I have to think WB neutrality support costs money and slows down release schedules.

However, at the end of the day if things stay neutral then I will conform. I'm not going to throw myself on a sword for either one of these formats.


Sorry, but I believe to the contrary, I think that prices will come down and eventually stabilize with two formats competing. We have already seen the price of hardware come way down in the past couple of months. I only own HD DVD but if a quality DF player comes to market I will have no problem going Dual.
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post #11 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketcha View Post

Because of the PS3 and other factors, Blu-ray is not going anywhere for quite awhile. However the same may be true for HD DVD. There could be a solid enough install base at this point. Who knows.

I think most people in the industry have come to this conclusion. We should see more companies going neutral in the coming months - though probably not any big players till '08.
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post #12 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

BD exclusive --> HD/BD neutral is a huge blow for the Blu-ray group, because it acknowledges that Blu-ray isn't headed for a quick win. Instead, the hi-def format war is headed where many of us predicted it would be headed: To a format stalemate.

This also explains Panasonic's outburst against LG in the DVD forum. I think core BD companies now see thier assumed victory slowly slipping away ....
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post #13 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:28 AM
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Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. Two format HD media will only prolong the time needed for HD to be mainstream. That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.

TotalHD discs are bad for the same reason. Just one more obstacle to the marketplace picking a winner. I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.

Blu Ray people don't like prolonging because they feel they are winning and this is a setback to Blu Ray becoming the only format. HD DVD supporters are obviously discouraged by the lack luster sales numbers and see this as a way to keep their format alive. Personally, I don't care which one wins, just as long as we can get to one format (like it should have been in the first place).
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post #14 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakkosmurf View Post

Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. ... That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.

Without two formats you wouldn't have got the inexpensive players that we have now - let alone cheaper players at mainstream price levels. BD / HD-DVD companies would be happy milking early adopters for years ...
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post #15 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by yakkosmurf View Post

Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. Two format HD media will only prolong the time needed for HD to be mainstream. That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.

TotalHD discs are bad for the same reason. Just one more obstacle to the marketplace picking a winner. I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.

Blu Ray people don't like prolonging because they feel they are winning and this is a setback to Blu Ray becoming the only format. HD DVD supporters are obviously discouraged by the lack luster sales numbers and see this as a way to keep their format alive. Personally, I don't care which one wins, just as long as we can get to one format (like it should have been in the first place).

Yeah I guess I was naive to believe this war might end next year. Samsung's duo means both formats will survive indefinitely. That seems incredibly likely now.
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post #16 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:40 AM
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We are against dual format players because we would have to buy another player.

How complicated is that?

Why not just make the content work on the players we already have? (PS3 in my case)
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post #17 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

We are against dual format players because we would have to buy another player.

How complicated is that?

Why not just make the content work on the players we already have? (PS3 in my case)

HD DVD in my case. Existing media from your format doesn't work on my player, existing media from my format doesn't work in your player. Get the picture?

I welcome dual-format, even though it will make my 360 HD DVD add-on obsolete. Luckily, I only invested US$175 to get my single-format player. (I already had the Xbox 360, and bought if for games and AAC music streaming.)
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post #18 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

HD DVD in my case. Existing media from your format doesn't work on my player, existing media from my format doesn't work in your player. Get the picture?

Go neutral and re-release?

If they can re-release slightly different versions of DVDs over and over why couldn't they release titles on another format later?
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post #19 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.VOID View Post

I think the dual-format approach is going to keep costs of the disks higher. If everyone could agree on one format then US THE CONSUMER could see cheaper disks from larger production of a specific format. I have to think WB neutrality support costs money and slows down release schedules.

Then using TotalHD discs would be the solution?

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post #20 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

This would effectively make the PS3 (and the Xbox 360's HD DVD add-on) obsolete as a hi-def optical disc player.

I had not thought of that.

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post #21 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Then using TotalHD discs would be the solution?

TotalHD look to be a higher cost alternative that give you a feature you can't use (the other side of the disc).

Plus there is talk of the BD side being limited to 25gb, no lossless, etc.
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post #22 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

Go neutral and re-release?

If they can re-release slightly different versions of DVDs over and over why couldn't they release titles on another format later?

They wouldn't necessarily have to bother if dual-format was the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Then using TotalHD discs would be the solution?

The easiest solution (in the context of a format stalemate) is to have a one time cost premium in the player (combo), and then just use the cheapest disc format.

If combo players were the norm say in 2009, I could see the major neutral studios continuing to release on both formats for a while (or on TotalHD), but for cost reasons I could see a number of small studio releasing on HD DVD only.
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post #23 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yakkosmurf View Post

I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.

But with a dual format player, you won't have to care which format is still around down the road.

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post #24 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

Without two formats you wouldn't have got the inexpensive players that we have now - let alone cheaper players at mainstream price levels. BD / HD-DVD companies would be happy milking early adopters for years ...

Good point.

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post #25 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

We are against dual format players because we would have to buy another player.

How complicated is that?

Why not just make the content work on the players we already have? (PS3 in my case)

Why would you have to buy another player? BD movies are still going to be produced, with or without dual format players.

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post #26 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

HD DVD in my case. Existing media from your format doesn't work on my player, existing media from my format doesn't work in your player. Get the picture?

...and welcome to early adoption. It stymies me that anyone thought they bought their first and last player, even in their format of choice. I'd much rather buy a dual player to expand my options for new titles than dump software, and possibly re-buy it yet again.

I'm not proud of it, but I've had 9 DVD players! I went from standard to progressive, region free, region free with progressive, region free progressive with upconversion.... you get the idea.

I already support two DVD formats NTSC and PAL, so the whole BD and HD DVD thing doesn't bug me.
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post #27 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

TotalHD look to be a higher cost alternative that give you a feature you can't use (the other side of the disc).

Plus there is talk of the BD side being limited to 25gb, no lossless, etc.

That would indeed be a down side then.

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post #28 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Why would you have to buy another player? BD movies are still going to be produced, with or without dual format players.

True, but I personally would want access to all movies available, not just those on one side.

I have an HD DVD player now, and am satisfied for the most part with what's available (and what will be coming) on HD DVD, but if dual-format players are cheap, of course I'll buy one.
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post #29 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

True, but I personally would want access to all movies available, not just those on one side.

I have an HD DVD player now, and am satisfied for the most part with what's available (and what will be coming) on HD DVD, but if dual-format players are cheap, of course I'll buy one.

Couldn't you just get a BD player instead of a dual format (since you already have HD) and save money?

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post #30 of 234 Old 04-17-2007, 10:10 AM
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Haven't read the others yet, but I'll take the plunge.

The BR camp, judging from Sony's reported position, feels that Dual Format players would give "credibility" to HD DVD, since it would be an admission that HD DVD has gotten strong enough in the market to support with new hardware from more vendors.

Second, and this is unstated, I believe that they are VERY worried about hybrid players because the state of play for Bluray hardware is in a mess right now. The standalone players current on sale for Bluray don't have the hardware necessary to meet the 1.1 player profile spec, and so will never be compatible with 1.1 or 2.0.

Furthermore, Bluray players are more expensive than HD DVD players - there are a whole raft of Bluray players at $1,000 SRP and higher, yet most of them do not support a good feature set. So if ANY player were to come along, at the same price, and offer 1080p24, HDMI 1.3, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, BD-Video 1.1 compatibility, and so on - it would wipe out these other BR players - The Samsung UP5000 has all of that - AND it plays HD DVDs as well.

The Samsung could DECIMATE the high-end BD player market.

HD DVD is protected from much of this. Their strategy has been to go for the mass market all along, not to profiteer with the traditional adoption model. So they are focussing on players from the $200 mark, up to the $500 mark, with a very complete set of features. And their most expensive player retails (currently) at $799.

Therefore, universal players in the $900 range will supplant Bluray player sales to a greater degree than HD DVD sales.

If the majority of standalone players in the mass market are HD DVD, and the majority of standalone players at the "high end" are hybrids, then studios will see quite clearly that the largest market for their movies is on the HD DVD disc.

This terrifies the everlovin' cr*p out of the Bluray folks, and many of their supporters. Have you noticed in the "intent to buy poll" for the Samsung, almost all the bluray folks said they WOULDN'T buy the Samsung?

However, in the real market, practical folks will choose the Samsung over a standalone BR player, and folks who can't afford both formats are going to pick HD DVD.

I have more detail on this thinking in my Samsung and LG player commentaries.
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