Format Battle General Discussion Thread III: Discuss it here! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 4862 Old 05-27-2007, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

I have personally seen a few demos of the HD1 /RS1 from JVC. Best projector I have seen for the money.

I'm familiar with the RS1 and it would be in the running. I'm thinking it will be a year or so at least before I start developing a dedicated home theater. Until then I'll live with the more conventional setup, but right now would indeed probably choose an RS1 on it's pure bang for the buck. Of course, if I had my druthers, I would be paying an obscene amount of money for a Qualia 004.

What's the HD1, though, and how does it differ from the RS1?

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The only downside to Blu-ray is that it once again makes it a bit more difficult for standalone players to feature match and generate stand alone sales at higher than PS3 prices.

Features and for the crowd that just won't go for a "game console" as their primary HT device. 24p and the upscaling along with the auto-play added in a previously update have just about nipped in the bud any complaints anyone could have, though. All that remains is IR integration, which is just as easily solved by a good universal remote that does both (either by Sony themselves for their moribund Remote Commander line or Harmony with a bluetooth blaster that they sell as an accessory to existing remote owners and/or a new model that does both out of the box to upsell).

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post #92 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 05:44 PM
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Anyone see that Amazon is offering HDDVD + 5 movies for a pretty low price?

I personally am hoping that BR takes the format war, however, I'm not totally opposed to HDDVD. While I'd prefer BR, I am a bit concerned that the recent and drastic price drops of HDDVD will allow it to gain enough market share to knock BR out of contention. Are there any upcoming price drops for BR? Iknow they just had some price drops recently but at double the cost or at least 60% more in most cases than HDDVD Sony is shooting themselves in the foot IMO.
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post #93 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 06:17 PM
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If the Toshibas were moving at their original prices the way they had hoped, they wouldn't be taking these drastic cuts.

It may get them some spikes in volume (although questionable if they will reach the numbers they've talked about) but they devalue their format and HD disc in general.
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post #94 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

If the Toshibas were moving at their original prices the way they had hoped, they wouldn't be taking these drastic cuts.

It may get them some spikes in volume (although questionable if they will reach the numbers they've talked about) but they devalue their format and HD disc in general.

Would you say Panasonic "devalue" their BD player at $599? That's a drastic price cut too...
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post #95 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

If the Toshibas were moving at their original prices the way they had hoped, they wouldn't be taking these drastic cuts.

It may get them some spikes in volume (although questionable if they will reach the numbers they've talked about) but they devalue their format and HD disc in general.

And if and I know its a big IF, but IF the HDDVD format gains considerable traction doing this it doesn't matter if they "devalue" it. If they become the format of choice that is irrelevant. Furthermore how do you "devalue" something like HDDVD? It's not like we're talking about a premium car, aka BMW cutting prices across the board by 35%. We're talking about a mainstream consumer electronics format. Thats a little different IMO.
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post #96 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 06:49 PM
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They're commoditizing it. Why even develop a new format if you're going to squeeze out margins so quick?

It's more of a vendetta thing, Toshiba apparently would rather bleed red ink and sabotage the market than try to make money at it. If they can't control the disc media patents again like they did with DVD, they're going to make sure there is little money left for anyone else who may win the market.
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post #97 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

They're commoditizing it. Why even develop a new format if you're going to squeeze out margins so quick?

As opposed to the huge margins each and every PS3 is providing?



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post #98 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

They're commoditizing it. Why even develop a new format if you're going to squeeze out margins so quick?

It's more of a vendetta thing, Toshiba apparently would rather bleed red ink and sabotage the market than try to make money at it. If they can't control the disc media patents again like they did with DVD, they're going to make sure there is little money left for anyone else who may win the market.

I believe that the business model has become more like the video game market. They're looking at making money from the long term royalties, not margins on the early players.
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post #99 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ILJG View Post

As opposed to the huge margins each and every PS3 is providing?



you think they're making money on PS3s?
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post #100 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

I believe that the business model has become more like the video game market. They're looking at making money from the long term royalties, not margins on the early players.

HDDVD group seems intent on that becoming the case, both by the actions of Toshiba themselves and the hope that the commodity Chinese players will come with dirt cheap players. Unfortunately the rest of the CE industry doesn't like this approach (not having the patent royalties to look forward to that Toshiba has hopes on) and thus the formation of BDA. It's not a coincidence that Toshiba has the bulk of the patents behind HDDVD.

If one likes innovation and competition, they definitely shouldn't support such measures.

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post #101 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

you think they're making money on PS3s?

I think your sarcasm detector needs calibration.

The game console market has relied on royalties and long term sales rather than immediate profitability for a long time and the PS3 is no exception.

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post #102 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

I think your sarcasm detector needs calibration.

The game console market has relied on royalties and long term sales rather than immediate profitability for a long time and the PS3 is no exception.

Thats exactly right

I'll calibrate that sarcasm detector tonight
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post #103 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

I believe that the business model has become more like the video game market. They're looking at making money from the long term royalties, not margins on the early players.

For Toshiba perhaps. Is there any other CE maker that could make money out of Toshiba's business model?
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post #104 of 4862 Old 05-28-2007, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post


If one likes innovation and competition, they definitely shouldn't support such measures.

Why? I have no problem with HD DVD's performance. If cheap Chinese players are not dependable I won't buy one. Actually I won't need to because Toshiba players are affordable anyway.

Why is it less tech-moral to buy a Chinese player, than a Japanese player loaded up with Chinese parts?
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post #105 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

Anyone see that Amazon is offering HDDVD + 5 movies for a pretty low price?

I personally am hoping that BR takes the format war, however, I'm not totally opposed to HDDVD. While I'd prefer BR, I am a bit concerned that the recent and drastic price drops of HDDVD will allow it to gain enough market share to knock BR out of contention. Are there any upcoming price drops for BR? Iknow they just had some price drops recently but at double the cost or at least 60% more in most cases than HDDVD Sony is shooting themselves in the foot IMO.

I think it's sold out now, but it was available for like $237 for awhile over the weekend. Pretty amazing stuff really.
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post #106 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

If the Toshibas were moving at their original prices the way they had hoped, they wouldn't be taking these drastic cuts.

It may get them some spikes in volume (although questionable if they will reach the numbers they've talked about) but they devalue their format and HD disc in general.

By the same logic, isn't the PS3 devalued? Because they couldn't sell it without taking a hit ... and many people are still waiting for a significant price cut to buy one.

Though, I suppose you'll argue that the PS3 is a game console so it follows a different p/l curve.

Do we know how much Toshiba is losing on an A2 at $237? Perhaps the retailers are the ones taking the hits figuring they will make it up based on the attach ratios?

I know, they're probably just blowing them out on clearance.
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post #107 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

HDDVD group seems intent on that becoming the case, both by the actions of Toshiba themselves and the hope that the commodity Chinese players will come with dirt cheap players. Unfortunately the rest of the CE industry doesn't like this approach (not having the patent royalties to look forward to that Toshiba has hopes on) and thus the formation of BDA. It's not a coincidence that Toshiba has the bulk of the patents behind HDDVD.

If one likes innovation and competition, they definitely shouldn't support such measures.

I'm sorry, but perhaps I missed this ... which CE company in the BDA stands to make the most out of the patent royalties? And which one is selling the most inexpensive [subsidized] player right now? And which one is selling the most 'players', period? Hmmm ... ?
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post #108 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I'm sorry, but perhaps I missed this ... which CE company in the BDA stands to make the most out of the patent royalties? And which one is selling the most inexpensive [subsidized] player right now? And which one is selling the most 'players', period? Hmmm ... ?

What do you know about the BDA patent stakes? Also with standalone prices approaching that of PS3s (fortunately not having to aim for $250 + 5 giveaway discs), the situation is very unlike Toshiba's.
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post #109 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

By the same logic, isn't the PS3 devalued?

"Underwritten" is probably a more accurate term.


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post #110 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by onanie View Post

What do you know about the BDA patent stakes? Also with standalone prices approaching that of PS3s (fortunately not having to aim for $250 + 5 giveaway discs), the situation is very unlike Toshiba's.

I was asking: Which BDA Member stands to gain the most from the patent royalties? Do you know? The assumption is Sony stands to gain the most. But, I suppose I'll have to 'prove' that to be right. Or, I could play the same game others do and request to be proved wrong.

As far as the situation being different, how so? The A1 debuted at $499, did it not? So now they're selling for about 50% less. With standalones approaching the price of PS3's, they have also had to reduce their pricing by 50%.

And, while Toshiba is giving away a few discs, PS3 was also gave away a disc, plus some coupons I understand ... oh ... and they're giving away a next gen gaming machine with it too.
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post #111 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 09:48 AM
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It is incredible how the BR folks keep making arguments against HD DVD that can be equally applied to BR. Weird!!


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post #112 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 09:55 AM
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LOL... low-priced players are bad because they "devalue" the format? What the hell does that mean?


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post #113 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 02:24 PM
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I'm not sure if I agree with the term "devalue" but the low prices are a strategy that could bite Toshiba in the ass.

They are running under the theory that if they get the prices low enough people will buy and not worry because it is so cheap. If a significant interested market still decides to sit on the sidelines because there is a format war, they have nowhere to go at that point.

The CE's are still trying to figure out why BETA lost to VHS. Was it the cheapness of VHS or the wide variety of VHS players since Sony didn't license initially that did it?
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post #114 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ramzyk View Post

Why is it less tech-moral to buy a Chinese player, than a Japanese player loaded up with Chinese parts?

"Tech Moral?" Say wha? Nearly every manufacturer in nearly every category of electronnics uses Chinese production facilities because they're, by definition, more affordable than certainly anywhere in the west. There is an entirely different set of standards for the quality of the materials and the QC tolerances... Maybe you don't appreciate the difference between a Toshiba DVD player and a Shinco, but I certainly do.

I like innovation. If it's a one man show or a bunch of bottom feeder HDDVD players, there simply won't be innovation, which is spurred by competition, which is what makes GOOD technology. Right now, the format war has spurred that. If/when Blu-ray takes off as dominant technology, the rivalry between the different CE's, with the different profiles available to them, will spur that innovation.

If HDDVD manages to gather enough mass to stumble along in the shadows, I don't expect to see anything except maybe Onkyo, which will likely be at the prices we'll see on the Blu-ray side, and Meridian, which will be ghastly expensive (and should probably as well include BD capability anyway).

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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

which CE company in the BDA stands to make the most out of the patent royalties?

I don't believe they've been finalized, but it's certainly more equitable than the HDDVD (and DVD), otherwise DVD Forum wouldn't have seen the mass defection to the BDA.

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post #115 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thomopolis View Post

The CE's are still trying to figure out why BETA lost to VHS. Was it the cheapness of VHS or the wide variety of VHS players since Sony didn't license initially that did it?

I think the CEs figured that out long ago: tape capacity. Beta had better quality, but less flexibilty as to recording times. There were certainly other factors, but I think it's readily accepted that this is the main one that did the format in.


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post #116 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

I don't believe they've been finalized, but it's certainly more equitable than the HDDVD (and DVD), otherwise DVD Forum wouldn't have seen the mass defection to the BDA.

So while you don't know for sure, it's certainly possible that Sony stands to gain the most. I believe the 'mass defection' as you call it, was probably triggered by the promises of 6 million players in the market within 6 months, subsidized media costs, etc, etc.

I'm not sure where this whole 'mass defection' thing is coming from either. Has this been discussed before? Or is this something brand new? I mean, considering that many of the BDA member CE's still participate in the DVD Forum, I would hardly call that a defection.

Either way, this all looks diversionary. *shrug*
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post #117 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bboisvert View Post

I think the CEs figured that out long ago: tape capacity. Beta had better quality, but less flexibilty as to recording times. There were certainly other factors, but I think it's readily accepted that this is the main one that did the format in.

It depends on who you talk to ... many people here would say it was 'readily accepted' that porn was the main factor that did the format in. Others will say it was price, etc, etc.

Time will tell ... of course, the A2 being out of stock at amazon probably is not good news for the format. While it's nice that it is in demand, they need to get more units in homes.
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post #118 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

"Tech Moral?" Say wha? Nearly every manufacturer in nearly every category of electronnics uses Chinese production facilities because they're, by definition, more affordable than certainly anywhere in the west. There is an entirely different set of standards for the quality of the materials and the QC tolerances... Maybe you don't appreciate the difference between a Toshiba DVD player and a Shinco, but I certainly do.

I like innovation. If it's a one man show or a bunch of bottom feeder HDDVD players, there simply won't be innovation, which is spurred by competition, which is what makes GOOD technology. Right now, the format war has spurred that. If/when Blu-ray takes off as dominant technology, the rivalry between the different CE's, with the different profiles available to them, will spur that innovation.

If HDDVD manages to gather enough mass to stumble along in the shadows, I don't expect to see anything except maybe Onkyo, which will likely be at the prices we'll see on the Blu-ray side, and Meridian, which will be ghastly expensive (and should probably as well include BD capability anyway).\\

Bah! It will do a lot better than "stumble along in the shadows" even as one of he two formats a hybrid-player can play. CE manufactures will produce different levels of player just as they always have, if anything they try to build new innovations into an existing product to differentiate themselves for the cheap stuff.

You can buy a $30 DVD player from any department store, but that doesn't stop any major CE company from offering HDMI, upconverting players that sell anywhere from six to twenty times as much. I just bought a 480p Pioneer Elite for $375 on sale. That's more than a A2.
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post #119 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

HDDVD group seems intent on that becoming the case, both by the actions of Toshiba themselves and the hope that the commodity Chinese players will come with dirt cheap players. Unfortunately the rest of the CE industry doesn't like this approach (not having the patent royalties to look forward to that Toshiba has hopes on) and thus the formation of BDA. It's not a coincidence that Toshiba has the bulk of the patents behind HDDVD.

If one likes innovation and competition, they definitely shouldn't support such measures.

Really? Is the video game industry lacking in innovation or competition? From a consumer perspective, this is a better business model.
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post #120 of 4862 Old 05-29-2007, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

believe the 'mass defection' as you call it, was probably triggered by the promises of 6 million players in the market within 6 months, subsidized media costs, etc, etc.

I'm sure if I'm a Matsushita executive, knowing one of my competitor would have 6,000,000 players in the market within 6 months would sure make me eager to jump in there. It's clear that the other CE were not even trying to compete with the PS3 on price for 1st Gen players.

Where's the crazy emoticon around here, again?


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I'm not sure where this whole 'mass defection' thing is coming from either. Has this been discussed before? Or is this something brand new? I mean, considering that many of the BDA member CE's still participate in the DVD Forum, I would hardly call that a defection.

I'm sure you're aware of the history of AOD versus Blu-ray. If you're not, I'm sure a quick Google could set you right.

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Really? Is the video game industry lacking in innovation or competition? From a consumer perspective, this is a better business model.

Apples and meatloaf comparison.

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