Format Battle General Discussion Thread III: Discuss it here! - Page 40 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 4862 Old 07-10-2007, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fistofsouth View Post

The fall is only going to make matters worse for Sony; the price cut will be negated by the fact that Madden will run at half the frame-rate on the PS3 (30fps vs. 60 fps on 360) and then the PS3 will lose its crown as the most advanced BD player when the new spec is finalized. Sometime in November PS3 owners around the world will wake up to realize that the finalized BD spec requires additional hardware for PiP. Firmware upgrades can do many wonderful things, but they can't make chips or tuners materialize out of thin air.

PC Watch Impress interview with SCE developers, comments about PS3 AVC decoding performance

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H.264 decoding itself was not very difficult for Cell with moderate optimization and they could play a movie in realtime at the first try unlike very difficult SACD optimization. However, because they began the development without knowing the final Blu-ray standard, they set the goal very high for decoding 2 full HD H.264 streams at 40Mbps simultaneously. Besides the clockspeed of the devkit was lower than the final product which made the development difficult. The current decoder can decode full HD H.264 with 3 SPEs.

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An SCE developer recommends trying 1.5x fast-forward playback in the PS3 BD player to see the power of Cell. When it's connected to a display via 1080/60p, it becomes very smooth as Cell has an enough margin for video decoding. In 1.5x fast-forward playback it decodes all frames then inserts them into 60fps with sped up audio.

Post by Shaheen Ghandi, xbox 360 developer about hd dvd performance

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All 6 of Xbox 360's hardware threads are hard at work while playing back an HD DVD. At the moment, the player software pushes Xbox 360 harder than any other (save, perhaps, Gears of War during some particularly busy parts of the game).

BD playback on PS3 is completely software based solution, and CELL has more than enough power to do HD pip, x360 does not. But I'm sure MS will release an add on to accompany the hd dvd add on to enable HD pip :-)

BTW, I don't think High Def Digest is qualified enough to say with authority what CELL is and isn't capable of, considering the reviewers can't even figure out if their hd dvd deck is capable of decoding DTS-HDMA.
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post #1172 of 4862 Old 07-10-2007, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by whippersnapper View Post

How do they keep their heads above water? Simple, they do it by continually increasing the number of Blu-ray movies they sell! Just like they're doing.

By that logic they should increase the number of SD DVD and dump all HDM.
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post #1173 of 4862 Old 07-10-2007, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

PC Watch Impress interview with SCE developers, comments about PS3 AVC decoding performance

Post by Shaheen Ghandi, xbox 360 developer about hd dvd performance

BD playback on PS3 is completely software based solution, and CELL has more than enough power to do HD pip, x360 does not. But I'm sure MS will release an add on to accompany the hd dvd add on to enable HD pip :-)

BTW, I don't think High Def Digest is qualified enough to say with authority what CELL is and isn't capable of, considering the reviewers can't even figure out if their hd dvd deck is capable of decoding DTS-HDMA.

I agree. I think it's likely the PS3 has the hardware to support BD 1.1 and 2.0. The big question has always been, will Sony undercut the BD 1.1 and BD 2.0 standalone players by adding this functionality to the PS3? I think they will, but I suspect they'll delay in order to give the standalone players some window to differentiate themselves in. There's no word from Sony either way though.
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post #1174 of 4862 Old 07-10-2007, 11:58 PM
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Posted by xboxboi on the news thread

Samsung to launch second dual-format blue-laser disc player in 4Q07
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20070710PD216.html

The device will be initially introduced in the European market at a tentative price of 400 euro (US$545) in the fourth quarter of 2007, according to industry sources in Taiwan.

If this is true, it puts us one big step closer to the end of the format war.
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post #1175 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 12:59 AM
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I guess you missed Grubert's detective work on the Samsung price. Short story, mis-translation.
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post #1176 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Ramzyk View Post

By that logic they should increase the number of SD DVD and dump all HDM.

Do some googling. Sales of SD DVDs have plateaued and are expected to begin to decline. Sales of Blu-ray discs will eventually fill the void and then some.
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post #1177 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by whippersnapper View Post

Do some googling. Sales of SD DVDs have plateaued and are expected to begin to decline. Sales of Blu-ray discs will eventually fill the void and then some.

According to Amazon, there will be 517 new DVDs coming out July 17. If that's a plateau, its going to be a long time before any HD format(s) can fill the void.
J
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post #1178 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Sure didn't sound like frustration or desperation to me, especially when their sales seem to be so much better than Universal's sales.

Seems to me that it is quite a stretch to call the following advertisement:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...hp?startpage=4

which spells out what they consider some highlights and then says, "DISNEY BLU-RAY. BETTER THAN PERFECT." desperate.

"A computer for the rest of us."

"Don't leave home without it."

"My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R."

It's marketing, and in case you haven't noticed, ALL companies do it. Though some seem more facile than others at it, even the best can stray into absurdity and pomposity. Though referring to this as "desperate" seems, to me, to be, well . . desperate.
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post #1179 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

"A computer for the rest of us."

"Don't leave home without it."

"My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R."

It's marketing, and in case you haven't noticed, ALL companies do it. Though some seem more facile than others at it, even the best can stray into absurdity and pomposity. Though referring to this as "desperate" seems, to me, to be, well . . desperate.

No. The content of this ad that merits the term 'desperate' is the specific play on words using the competitor's trademark. None of your examples carry this stigma.

Marketing is best focused on building and supporting the company's value proposition and brand identity. When a company begins to use another company's brand identity in their ads, it is an inherent admission that they are not in control of the market. Otherwise, why would they need to mention the opposing trademark?

If Toshiba were to make a statement like "HD DVD - not just a game-play station, but true home theater equipment", it would merit the same treatment.
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post #1180 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J View Post

According to Amazon, there will be 517 new DVDs coming out July 17. If that's a plateau, its going to be a long time before any HD format(s) can fill the void.

Releases and sales are not the same thing. You can release as many titles as you like, but if fewer people buy them, you will have a decline in sales.
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post #1181 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Big J View Post

According to Amazon, there will be 517 new DVDs coming out July 17. If that's a plateau, its going to be a long time before any HD format(s) can fill the void.
J

Yes, it will be years. Just like the transition from VHS to DVD. But the merchants are looking for something to compensate for the slowdown in DVD sales.
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post #1182 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by whippersnapper View Post

Yes, it will be years. Just like the transition from VHS to DVD. But the merchants are looking for something to compensate for the slowdown in DVD sales.

If the masses want it, and that's a big if.
J
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post #1183 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by whippersnapper View Post

Do some googling. Sales of SD DVDs have plateaued and are expected to begin to decline. Sales of Blu-ray discs will eventually fill the void and then some.

I think DVD sales are declining because people are realizing that over the last several years they have built quite a collection of "watched it once" movies, making them a very poor value compared to movies on demand or HBO channels. I think it will be a long time before a higher priced player (than DVD) with higher priced discs (than DVD) and smaller market (requires HD TV) will "fill the void and then some".
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post #1184 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jgyenese View Post

I think DVD sales are declining because people are realizing that over the last several years they have built quite a collection of "watched it once" movies, making them a very poor value compared to movies on demand or HBO channels. I think it will be a long time before a higher priced player (than DVD) with higher priced discs (than DVD) and smaller market (requires HD TV) will "fill the void and then some".

I don't know if that's what is happening in the overall market, but it is certainly what has happened to me: I bought most of the movies I REALLY wanted (plus a whole lot more that were pure $5 bargain bin impulse buys at Wal Mart) and since I'm staring down 500+ DVDs, it's awfully hard (and getting harder) to justify buying DVD n+1, or buying a DVD that I am (now) pretty sure I'll watch maybe 2 times, tops. Add to that the reticence on my part to buy any DVDs when I firmly believe that in 2 years or less I'll be buying HD DVDs or BR discs . . . . and I've had a major slow down in purchases.
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post #1185 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

No. The content of this ad that merits the term 'desperate' is the specific play on words using the competitor's trademark. None of your examples carry this stigma.

Marketing is best focused on building and supporting the company's value proposition and brand identity. When a company begins to use another company's brand identity in their ads, it is an inherent admission that they are not in control of the market. Otherwise, why would they need to mention the opposing trademark?

If Toshiba were to make a statement like "HD DVD - not just a game-play station, but true home theater equipment", it would merit the same treatment.

Agreed. Market dominant companies / products don't mention their (non) competition in their adds. Note: Apple. As funny and entertaining as their "Hi, I'm a Mac." ads are, the fact that they're going after PCs is a tacit admission that they're the one trying to gain market share, not vice versa. Marketing-leading companies and products seldom (if ever) mention their competition because doing so provides free ad time for their competition.
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post #1186 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 11:56 AM
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We've optimised the codec performance significantly since Shaheen's original post. We've got a fair amount of headroom now, especially if the disc is using VC1. But that's neither here nor there. The Cell takes 3 SPEs to do a full HD H.264 stream, so two streams would use all 6 SPEs, along with a fair chunk of the PPE for handling demuxing etc. What's left to run the Java VM, the BD+ VM, the audio decoding, mixing and re-encoding (not necessary for PCM out, but still needs to be taken into account for those that don't have HDMI audio), the AACS decoding, and more. There's a lot more to a player than just decoding a video stream.
In the 360, we only use 3 of the 6 hardware threads for the HD video stream decode (We'd only need 1 of them for MPEG 2, and we could probably get away with 2 for VC-1). 1 is used for secondary video, and the other two are used for those other tasks I mentioned (Except ours has HDi instead of a Java VM).

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm pretty sure it can be done, but it won't be a walk in the park.
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post #1187 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I think most marketing slogans are garbage, but my point [again] was that they come from both sides. Why is 'Look and Sound of Perfect' worth beating up when you have things like 'Beyond Perfect' or '4D' in your own backyard?

jdg345, neither of those comments are in my "backyard". I am not going to defend every single thing said by every company that is involved with Blu-ray and I don't expect that from you in terms of HD DVD. As for the two comments you cite neither of them were official marketing slogans for Blu-ray. In the case of "Beyond Perfect" that was used in an advertisement as a jab at the HD DVD marketing slogan. In the case of "4D" that was a comment from a Sony executive about the PS3 though personally I do think that it was a foolish thing to say. Neither comment though was an official marketing slogan. Once again I think a marketing slogan which directly describes its product as perfect is a bit arrogant even for a marketing slogan. Just my opinion though I notice that so far no one has disagreed with it.


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Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

BD playback on PS3 is completely software based solution, and CELL has more than enough power to do HD pip, x360 does not. But I'm sure MS will release an add on to accompany the hd dvd add on to enable HD pip :-)

To be fair the Xbox 360 is doing SD PiP decoding at the moment so with optimization it is possible that it could do HD PiP decoding.


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Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

The Cell takes 3 SPEs to do a full HD H.264 stream, so two streams would use all 6 SPEs, along with a fair chunk of the PPE for handling demuxing etc.

Just to point this out but the peak AV bitrate for Blu-ray is 48 Mbps which is only 20% higher than 40 Mbps. As such if they only need 3 SPEs, and the 3rd one is probably not completely used, to decode 40 Mbps MPEG-4 AVC than decoding two HD video streams with a maximum combined bitrate of 48 Mbps would not take twice as much to decode. In fact it might even take less to decode than it does to decode 40 Mbps MPEG-4 AVC at 1.5x.
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post #1188 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

No. The content of this ad that merits the term 'desperate' is the specific play on words using the competitor's trademark. None of your examples carry this stigma.

Marketing is best focused on building and supporting the company's value proposition and brand identity. When a company begins to use another company's brand identity in their ads, it is an inherent admission that they are not in control of the market. Otherwise, why would they need to mention the opposing trademark?

If Toshiba were to make a statement like "HD DVD - not just a game-play station, but true home theater equipment", it would merit the same treatment.

I'm in agreement with you on everything but the characterization of it being desperate. Silly, for sure. Perhaps the real marketing brains were not at the meeting where some nitwit threw this one onto the wall and it stuck. Or maybe it was very calculated and designed to whip up the HD-DVD fanbois to keep them distracted. Who knows. I'd go with "lame" BTW.
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post #1189 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgyenese View Post

I think DVD sales are declining because people are realizing that over the last several years they have built quite a collection of "watched it once" movies, making them a very poor value compared to movies on demand or HBO channels. I think it will be a long time before a higher priced player (than DVD) with higher priced discs (than DVD) and smaller market (requires HD TV) will "fill the void and then some".

I have stopped buying DVDs because something else is coming (or here) and I have hi-def cable with a big honkin' external drive on the STB/DVR to feed my hi-def jones and hold me over until I do commit to a format and buy those discs.
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post #1190 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgyenese View Post

I think DVD sales are declining because people are realizing that over the last several years they have built quite a collection of "watched it once" movies, making them a very poor value compared to movies on demand or HBO channels. I think it will be a long time before a higher priced player (than DVD) with higher priced discs (than DVD) and smaller market (requires HD TV) will "fill the void and then some".

100% correct. Luckily, I have actually retsrained myself for the most part and I currently only own like 40-50 titles and that number includes counting each Star Wars & LOTR disc separately.

I have rebought 6 titles on HD DVD that I had an SD version for. Im not gonna go crazy there either..... no way Im buying a comedy or drama in HD....no reason, IMO.

Poor value is exactly the issue too..... I mean, whattaya think you're gonna get on ebay for some used, semi-cheesey 80's flick? Trade in value is about $1 or $2. I know how it is though...I have bought some watch-once movies. Something just comes over you at the store or while surfing.....you end up justifying it with strange reasoning or whatever......Damned Video Hobby!

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post #1191 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bjonni View Post

I guess you missed Grubert's detective work on the Samsung price. Short story, mis-translation.

No, I saw and thanked grubert for his fine detective work. What struck me as interesting was that Digitmes did not site IFA (the German show) as the source for the pricing. They instead sited sources in Taiwan for the pricing. Maybe Digitmes got it wrong as well, we'll see how it plays out.

The device will be initially introduced in the European market at a tentative price of 400 euro (US$545) in the fourth quarter of 2007, according to industry sources in Taiwan.
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post #1192 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 04:21 PM
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Interesting. Obivously, it is not a low end model. We'll see. As always, interesting times ahead!

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post #1193 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

What struck me as interesting was that Digitmes did not site IFA (the German show) as the source for the pricing. They instead sited sources in Taiwan for the pricing. Maybe Digitmes got it wrong as well, we'll see how it plays out.

I am pretty sure they just got that wrong since Samsung stated that it would be about 400 Euro more for a universal player from those that asked them. As such it seems much more likely that Digitimes, like several other websites, simply ran their story based on some bad information.
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post #1194 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'm in agreement with you on everything but the characterization of it being desperate. Silly, for sure. Perhaps the real marketing brains were not at the meeting where some nitwit threw this one onto the wall and it stuck. Or maybe it was very calculated and designed to whip up the HD-DVD fanbois to keep them distracted. Who knows. I'd go with "lame" BTW.

It smacks of a personal (aka in law: corporate) attack which is the refuge of the desperate.
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post #1195 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by WayneL View Post

It smacks of a personal (aka in law: corporate) attack which is the refuge of the desperate.

I can imagine a lot of things, but I cannot imagine anyone involved on either side being desperate. Though, if there is a "loser," they and their shareholders will be mighty sore.
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post #1196 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just to point this out but the peak AV bitrate for Blu-ray is 48 Mbps which is only 20% higher than 40 Mbps. As such if they only need 3 SPEs, and the 3rd one is probably not completely used, to decode 40 Mbps MPEG-4 AVC than decoding two HD video streams with a maximum combined bitrate of 48 Mbps would not take twice as much to decode. In fact it might even take less to decode than it does to decode 40 Mbps MPEG-4 AVC at 1.5x.

Excellent point. The PS3 is a marvelous piece of gear, no matter which way you look at it.

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post #1197 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just to point this out but the peak AV bitrate for Blu-ray is 48 Mbps which is only 20% higher than 40 Mbps. As such if they only need 3 SPEs, and the 3rd one is probably not completely used, to decode 40 Mbps MPEG-4 AVC than decoding two HD video streams with a maximum combined bitrate of 48 Mbps would not take twice as much to decode. In fact it might even take less to decode than it does to decode 40 Mbps MPEG-4 AVC at 1.5x.

Aah, but video decoding complexity is not really linear with bitrate. And, whether or not the stream _average_ would be 24Mb or less, the fact is that (assuming both streams are equal spec, which has not been determined as far as I know) either stream will be able to hit peaks of 40Mb, so you still have to reserve all three SPEs, unless they do something cool like dynamically assign decoding tasks to SPEs, which would be cool, but would push even more load onto the PPE to do the task management, and by the description, does not appear to be what they're currently doing.

Either way, I'm not arguing the PS3 couldn't do it, all I said is that a player isn't just decoding a video stream, and that with the data we've got, even the PS3 player might need more optimisation to be comfortable handling two full HD streams.
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post #1198 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Excellent point. The PS3 is a marvelous piece of gear, no matter which way you look at it.

I agree that to date it is the most impressive BD player, but as a game console, it's not as impressive.

Deflated Pigskin: PS3's Football Troubles
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160709

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We have confirmed the Xbox 360 versions of Madden NFL 08 (August), All-Pro Football 2K8 (July), and NCAA Football 08 (July) will run at 60 frames per second, whereas the PS3 editions are locked at just 30fps. In the simplest of terms, this means that the 360 versions will run smoother and faster, and you'll have an easier time noticing subtle animations.

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OK, we will. After seeing Sony's response, Todd Sitrin, EA's vice president of marketing sports branding, replied:

"We want to make sure that we give the best experience we can on each platform. In designing a game, there are all sorts of tradeoffs that include frame rate, visuals, features, AI, etc. Football is an extremely challenging sport to replicate because of the number of people on the field, their interaction, and the scope of the environments. As you can see, every company making a football game this year made a decision that the best experience for the Xbox 360 included 60fps whereas the best experience for the PS3 was 30fps. We certainly believe that both the Xbox 360 and PS3 versions are our football products are outstanding experiences and recommend that each gamer look at the entire experience, not just one aspect. We think they'll be very happy no matter which version of the game they play."

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post #1199 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 11:17 PM
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Guideline for HD-DVD 24p and Performance Levels is now available.

http://www.dvdforum.org/images/HD_DV...ne20070711.pdf

Ron

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post #1200 of 4862 Old 07-11-2007, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

I agree that to date it is the most impressive BD player, but as a game console, it's not as impressive.

Deflated Pigskin: PS3's Football Troubles
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160709

Owning both, I would disagree. The PS3 is obviously more powerful and refined (quieter, smoother, more reliable, etc). From the specs, the PS3 should be far more capable of 60fps as the 360. Hell, most of the 360 games (especially the best ones) are 720p, if not also 30fps, as well. Gears of War comes to mind....

Also more utility since I'm making this post from my PS3. I am gonna get back to my Aces 6 demo in a bit, though.

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