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post #1 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a continuation of Format Battle General Discussion Thread II: Discuss it here!

Format Battle General Discussion Thread III: Discuss it here!


This thread is intended for general discussions of the format battle


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post #2 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 08:10 AM
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Technical and civil. Well in my opinion HD DVD has nothing left to fight with, with Funai jumping on BR not to mention Onkyo the price argument is leaving fast. Not like being half the price ever seemed to help. I think its all over but the crying. But I would be glad to listen to someones theory on what HD DVD can offer that Blu Ray cant to turn around the sales trend. Aside from a few movies, I know those, but BR definantly has the advantage in the "movies not available on other format" area. Toshiba cant keep giving their format away forever.

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post #3 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 08:18 AM
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While I agree with you to a point Shug, if cheap HD-DVD players keep hitting the streets and people are buying them, this war is only going to get bloodier and bloodier. The more these heavily subsidized HD-DVD deals continue, the more HD-DVD is adopted by consumers. Once a consumer has bought into a format, most are loyal to it for sometime.

I just wish this damn war would end one way or another so HDM can take off, it's not going to happen with two optical HD formats at war...
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post #4 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 08:24 AM
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Hidef digest's review for the new Matrix set indicates that the TrueHD set is supposedly 16/48... Has anyone who's heard it thought that 16 bits was insufficient?

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post #5 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Hidef digest's review for the new Matrix set indicates that the TrueHD set is supposedly 16/48... Has anyone who's heard it thought that 16 bits was insufficient?

It's kind of hard to make an argument that 16bit is insufficient with 5.1 movie soundtracks when 16bit has proved more than sufficient with much more critical stereo music-only applications (Evidenced by failure of and apathy for DVD-A/SACD over CD).

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #6 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 08:55 AM
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Why I still like HD-DVD as a consumer? No region coding (this is HUGE) and less DRM. I can understand why STUDIOS like blu-ray better but I think that HD-DVD is the better format for the consumer.

As a consumer the format war is awesome. It has driven prices down much quicker than would have happened otherwise. As a consumer I couldn't care less if fighting this war drives all the companies involved into the ground. I want the best technology at the cheapest price possible. I don't really care if the backers of the technology are making money or not. That is their problem.

As for the studios they don't make any money if their content sits in a vault. As a consumer I love HD but SD is fine too. I will buy HD versions of the films I like if available, if not the upscaled SD version is fine.

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post #7 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

It's kind of hard to make an argument that 16bit is insufficient with 5.1 movie soundtracks when 16bit has proved more than sufficient with much more critical stereo music-only applications (Evidenced by failure of and apathy for DVD-A/SACD over CD).

I agree for the most part. It's only an issue because certain individuals didn't seem to think that the 16/48 PCM included on many Blu-ray releases wasn't good enough if it wasn't 20/48 or 24/48...

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post #8 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 09:25 AM
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Sorry, I disagree. I'm sure a good 16bit track can sound great as some great sounding CD. But CD is format limited at 16bit. On blu-ray 24bit is simply a flip of switch at the encoding so why not? What ever that small gain over 16bit it still a gain in quality. I see no argument to push for 24bit while enjoying the existing 16bit track.

It's the same thinking on the video bitrate. Given the same codec, a higher bitrate must give a better picture no matter how small the gain. As long as the format can easily support the extra bandwidth, we should always aim for the best. Don't let no one tell us what is "good enough"!

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post #9 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eq_shadimar View Post

Why I still like HD-DVD as a consumer? No region coding (this is HUGE) and less DRM. I can understand why STUDIOS like blu-ray better but I think that HD-DVD is the better format for the consumer.

I often hear the argument that HD-DVD is better because of "less DRM" but I can't figure out why this would matter to an average consumer. If you are buying your discs legally, neither format is capable of allowing you to make managed copies, and whether or not the disc has stronger vs. weaker encryption doesn't seem to matter to a consumer. Where is the downside for me as a purchaser if the disc has BD+ protection or not? Its not like DivX (the old one) where a network link is required or anything truly evil like that.

Both types of discs can be played on my PC with an authorized player, so where is the advantage for HD-DVD in this?
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post #10 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 10:29 AM
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Media servers. Sure TODAY it would cost about $7 per movie to store HD DVDs on a PC, but HDD prices will continue to come down even as capacities rise, and it won't be long before a home media server is a reasonable alternative to a single-disc player.

Silence is Golden. Duct Tape is Silver.
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post #11 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

Both types of discs can be played on my PC with an authorized player,

That brings up an interesting issue. With certain people very anxious to get their hands on a BD+ disc in order to defeat its protection, is a PC based BD+ player a good idea? Will BD+ only work with Vista 64 and TPM combination? Are Cyberlink and Intervideo going to play in the BD+ game?
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post #12 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

Sorry, I disagree. I'm sure a good 16bit track can sound great as some great sounding CD. But CD is format limited at 16bit. On blu-ray 24bit is simply a flip of switch at the encoding so why not? What ever that small gain over 16bit it still a gain in quality. I see no argument to push for 24bit while enjoying the existing 16bit track.

It's the same thinking on the video bitrate. Given the same codec, a higher bitrate must give a better picture no matter how small the gain. As long as the format can easily support the extra bandwidth, we should always aim for the best. Don't let no one tell us what is "good enough"!

regards,

Li On

Just out of curiosity, what kind of audio setup do you have? Can you even utilize the 20 or 24 bit audio without losing it due to less than optimal equipment?

In theory, I agree with you, but in practice, It won't matter to me anyway because I don't have 10-50K to spend on kickass audio/video components.

It's kind of like saying "They should offer 110 Octane at the pump" for the boost junkies out there.
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post #13 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 11:03 AM
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Do any of you think this could make a difference in this war?

According to Home Media Magazine (page 32) http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...2007/index.php that the BDA affiliated studios are only releasing 43 titles this year, while HD DVD backers plan on shipping 800. That's a huge difference. The numbers they give in the article just don't make sense. BDA to release 147 titles in 2008, 342 in 2009..... At that rate compaired to HD DVD, that might make a difference on how this is played out IMO.

EDIT : I'm guessing the 43 titles are ones coming out later this year, and does not include the ones already released to date. Same with the 800 (or close to it) from what it looks like. All released from date to end of the year.
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post #14 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomster View Post

Do any of you think this could make a difference in this war?
According to Home Media Magazine (page 32)...

According to that article, HD DVD releases in November and December of this year alone are nearly three times what is scheduled for BD for all of 2008. If this data is accurate, all the people arguing that content will decide this war for BD better hope they are wrong.
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post #15 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 11:35 AM
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Theoretically, I think 20bit is probably good enough for your ordinary mortal with good equipment and an acoustically prepared room/dedicated home theater. 16bit is probably sufficient for most non-dedicated home theater setups....

I'd prefer to be skeptical on my equipment or room, if not my Mark I human ear, than uncertainty over the source itself and if the encoder was having a good day or if he was encoding on a wednesday versus a Monday, though. Lossless, if not uncompressed, means we can do this with certainty.

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post #16 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 01:12 PM
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No one seems to care that Blu-ray is by far the better computer/burn your own media format? This is for me the entire reason I so strongly support Blu-ray.. if these formats were only a matter of pre-pressed movies I wouldn't care even 10 percent as much as I do now for who wins. I'd like to live in a compatible world for the next 10 years, and I will certainly be burning a ton of my own HD content on Blu-ray.
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post #17 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

It's kind of hard to make an argument that 16bit is insufficient with 5.1 movie soundtracks when 16bit has proved more than sufficient with much more critical stereo music-only applications (Evidenced by failure of and apathy for DVD-A/SACD over CD).

As someone who's been late to the hi-res multichannel party (and is kicking himself because of that tardiness) I can only speculate that any "apathy" is merely due to people not hearing DVD-A/SACD. While recordings (and mixes) vary, I am generally BLOWN AWAY with the quality. I can only hope that we get concerts and music videos in both hi-res video and hi-res audio. Sixteen-bit is insufficient once one has heard 24-bit!
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post #18 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by seth.s View Post

No one seems to care that Blu-ray is by far the better computer/burn your own media format? This is for me the entire reason I so strongly support Blu-ray.. if these formats were only a matter of pre-pressed movies I wouldn't care even 10 percent as much as I do now for who wins. I'd like to live in a compatible world for the next 10 years, and I will certainly be burning a ton of my own HD content on Blu-ray.

I tend to think that magnetic and solid state storage are superior to either optical format for my archival purposes, but certainly agree that a slightly bigger bit bucket is a nice to have for storage/archival purposes (assuming the cost/GB is the same).

That being said, the main arguement here anyway is for movie delivery, which is a pressed ROM format. In that regard, HD DVD has the ease of manufacture in spades over BD ROM. Not surprising that folks give more weight to HD DVD considering that this is an A/V forum, and not a computer technology forum (and HTPC setups are by far the minority, even here).
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post #19 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 03:05 PM
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Just to tie up one post from the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Just to point out... this phrase was within an actual BDA writeup of one of their meetings in Fukuoka , Japan. It was ostensibly lifted from their website and reported on by Alex Millians.

From the looks of it Alex didn't quote what he saw so much as he gave a humorous summary of what he thought it was. On the other hand paidgeek said that it was only the title of a presentation made during that conference. Furthermore the intent of that presentation was to encourage more Blu-ray insiders to participate on forums like this one. As such to rephrase what I said the view that a good number of HD DVD supporters had of Phase Hydra was nothing more than a pure conspiracy theory without a hint of proof. Furthermore a few HD DVD supporters has even used it as an excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters which I personally find disgusting. The forum is heated enough without conspiracy theories being used to attack other posters.
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post #20 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomster View Post

Do any of you think this could make a difference in this war?

According to Home Media Magazine (page 32) http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...2007/index.php that the BDA affiliated studios are only releasing 43 titles this year, while HD DVD backers plan on shipping 800. That's a huge difference.

Well it would be a huge difference if it was true. There has already been a thread on this and it might help if you took a quick glance through it since it sums up the reasons why so many people are skeptical of the claims made by the HD DVD Promotions Group.



Quote:
Originally Posted by boomster View Post

EDIT : I'm guessing the 43 titles are ones coming out later this year, and does not include the ones already released to date. Same with the 800 (or close to it) from what it looks like. All released from date to end of the year

Just to add to this but the 43 titles for Blu-ray are only the titles that have been officially announced so far. As for the 800 titles for HD DVD well let us just say I am skeptical, which I gave an explanation for in this post.
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post #21 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just to tie up one post from the other thread:

From the looks of it Alex didn't quote what he saw so much as he gave a humorous summary of what he thought it was. On the other hand paidgeek said that it was only the title of a presentation made during that conference. Furthermore the intent of that presentation was to encourage more Blu-ray insiders to participate on forums like this one. As such to rephrase what I said the view that a good number of HD DVD supporters had of Phase Hydra was nothing more than a pure conspiracy theory without a hint of proof. Furthermore a few HD DVD supporters has even used it as an excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters which I personally find disgusting. The forum is heated enough without conspiracy theories being used to attack other posters.


I respect your point of view, but my own differs somewhat. I'm not sure that Hydra is so much about encouraging insider participation (a great thing) as it was plans to pay for viral marketing with paid posters. In the mean time it seems that Sony's perception on the Internet is something they are concerned about.

Sony blames Internet for poor PS3 performance
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39776

SONY AMERICA'S director of corporate communications seems to have a novel approach to criticism of the outfit's new PS3 console.

According to Dave Karakker the reason that the PS3 has been outdone by the Nintendo is nothing to do with the fact it is overpriced, in short supply or in any way pants.

Karakker, who was one of the brains behind Microsoft Bob's marketing, said that the problem is caused by the Internet thing.

He said that a lot of the perceptions of the PS3 are being put about by people who don't have all the facts or have some kind of axe to grind. Such types vent their spleen on the Interweb.

Karakker said that while there were some perceptions on PS3 that were justified. For example, Sony didn't have nearly enough hardware at launch to meet consumer demand.

GamePro couldn't get him to say anything about the price.
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post #22 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just to tie up one post from the other thread:

From the looks of it Alex didn't quote what he saw so much as he gave a humorous summary of what he thought it was. On the other hand paidgeek said that it was only the title of a presentation made during that conference. Furthermore the intent of that presentation was to encourage more Blu-ray insiders to participate on forums like this one. As such to rephrase what I said the view that a good number of HD DVD supporters had of Phase Hydra was nothing more than a pure conspiracy theory without a hint of proof. Furthermore a few HD DVD supporters has even used it as an excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters which I personally find disgusting. The forum is heated enough without conspiracy theories being used to attack other posters.

If you are rephrasing now, then I still believe it to be incorrect. However, what you said was (and I'm quoting you), "The so called "Phase Hydra" was a pure conspiracy theory without a hint of proof...". Nothing about the viewpoint of anybody.

In any case, you make my point: Entitling a presentation thusly is at LEAST a hint.

-Steve
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post #23 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus View Post

I tend to think that magnetic and solid state storage are superior to either optical format for my archival purposes, but certainly agree that a slightly bigger bit bucket is a nice to have for storage/archival purposes (assuming the cost/GB is the same).

Media back-up (if this is what you meant by archival) is not the only issue. I think people will be using home made optical discs for media use (to play at home or elsewhere) for quite a long time.. the day they don't I think is around the same day that people will stop using Blu-ray and HD-DVD altogether. I personally consider the bitrate and capacity advantage of BD to be significant in this department, and don't have much doubt it will in this arena become the new optical standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus View Post

That being said, the main arguement here anyway is for movie delivery, which is a pressed ROM format. In that regard, HD DVD has the ease of manufacture in spades over BD ROM. Not surprising that folks give more weight to HD DVD considering that this is an A/V forum, and not a computer technology forum (and HTPC setups are by far the minority, even here).

I don't think the ease of manufacturing is an important issue, Blu-ray seems to be handling production just fine, and prices seem on par with HD-DVD. It is not surprising that people here care more about pre-pressed movies (the edge does not at all appear to be with HD-DVD here to me) than they do about computer use and recordability, but I do find it somewhat surprising that people none the less don't care more about recordability, especially considering the ability to burn to disc will be coming to home media players thus not limiting burning to computer users. And regardless I think we all are going to want to be able to play the media that others, including our friends and family, have produced.
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post #24 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

I respect your point of view, but my own differs somewhat. I'm not sure that Hydra is so much about encouraging insider participation (a great thing) as it was plans to pay for viral marketing with paid posters.

No offense but how exactly do you know that? I know that a good number of HD DVD supporters have a negative view of the BDA but a lot of people have jumped on nothing more than a conspiracy theory that a few of the more partisan HD DVD supporters created. There never was and continues to be no proof that Phase Hydra was even a BDA project let alone anything more. Worse yet some posters in their desire to hate everything Blu-ray related have used this conspiracy theory as an excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters. Now tell me exactly how that type of behavior improves AVS Forum?


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

If you are rephrasing now, then I still believe it to be incorrect. However, what you said was (and I'm quoting you), "The so called "Phase Hydra" was a pure conspiracy theory without a hint of proof...". Nothing about the viewpoint of anybody.

I did include the phrase "and a good number of HD DVD supporters were eager to believe it." Obviously I didn't explain myself well in the first post but I did mean to refer to what those HD DVD supporters believed it to be and not what it actually was. There was of course a Phase Hydra but it was merely the title of a presentation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

In any case, you make my point: Entitling a presentation thusly is at LEAST a hint.

So the fact that there was a presentation on encouraging more Blu-ray insiders to post on internet forums is a reasonable excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters on this forum? Because that is unfortunately what I see being done by certain HD DVD supporters who are using "Phase Hydra" as an excuse for such behavior.
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post #25 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I did include the phrase "and a good number of HD DVD supporters were eager to believe it." Obviously I didn't explain myself well in the first post but I did mean to refer to what those HD DVD supporters believed it to be and not what it actually was. There was of course a Phase Hydra but it was merely the title of a presentation.

We agree on two portions of that, anyway.

Quote:
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So the fact that there was a presentation on encouraging more Blu-ray insiders to post on internet forums is a reasonable excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters on this forum? Because that is unfortunately what I see being done by certain HD DVD supporters who are using "Phase Hydra" as an excuse for such behavior.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You are putting words in my mouth.

You said that, "'Phase Hydra' was a pure conspiracy theory without a hint of proof". I pointed out that Alex provided exactly such a "hint of proof" that it existed. Which you acknowledge above.

What it was, or wasn't, an excuse for anybody to do is something I've not addressed at all.

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post #26 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 07:32 PM
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Technical and civil. Well in my opinion HD DVD has nothing left to fight with ....

With PS3 tanking and inexpensive HD DVD players coming withing the grasp of mainstream, time is on the side of HD DVD. It is the only hidef format capable of achieving mainstream status.

We have seen dwindling sales of BD movies even as more than a million players are in users hands. What else does BD have to fight the DVD ? It has always been a one trick (trojan) pony. 0.06% market share is not even niche.
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post #27 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 08:20 PM
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Toshiba cant keep giving their format away forever.

Has any player been more heavily subsidized than the PS3? Ever?

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post #28 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 09:53 PM
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No offense but how exactly do you know that? I know that a good number of HD DVD supporters have a negative view of the BDA but a lot of people have jumped on nothing more than a conspiracy theory that a few of the more partisan HD DVD supporters created. There never was and continues to be no proof that Phase Hydra was even a BDA project let alone anything more. Worse yet some posters in their desire to hate everything Blu-ray related have used this conspiracy theory as an excuse to attack new Blu-ray supporters. Now tell me exactly how that type of behavior improves AVS Forum?
snip......

I would say that neither one of us knows for sure what they meant. Here is Talks point of view.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...a#post10248649

Here (word-for-word) is exactly what was presented:

* Phase Hydra: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

Nothing about "seeding", "high profile", or "Blu-ray advocates". This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums as has representation from the HD DVD camp. Paidgeek's efforts here on the forum stem in part from this understanding. Do you consider him a "shill", or his input non-credible?

Alex is breaching someone's trust by posting confidential documents, and when the information is presented out of context from the full verbal presentation it's even more prone to mis-representation.

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I've learned from exchanges with Talk that what he says is just as important as what he does not say. When this information was originally posted, a number of BD supporters posted to say we should expect that both sides are doing viral marketing and this was nothing to get upset over.

As for attacking BD posters, I don't think that's appropriate, and it's against forum rules. If I ever post something that comes off as an attack, please call me on it. I make every effort to post information and level headed opinions.
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post #29 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 10:04 PM
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We have seen dwindling sales of BD movies even as more than a million players are in users hands. What else does BD have to fight the DVD ? It has always been a one trick (trojan) pony. 0.06% market share is not even niche.

You're going to be eating those words when Friday's numbers come out. HDDVD has been going deeper and deeper in the hole sales-wise. It may have enough traction to linger on like laserdisc... and I won't be disapointed, but I fully expect Universal to go neutral come 2008 and the retailers (starting with BB) willl shortly thereafter begin to stop stocking HDDVD. Don't worry you'll still have Amazon & Netflix. Maybe.

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post #30 of 4862 Old 05-22-2007, 11:00 PM
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You're going to be eating those words when Friday's numbers come out. HDDVD has been going deeper and deeper in the hole sales-wise. It may have enough traction to linger on like laserdisc... and I won't be disapointed, but I fully expect Universal to go neutral come 2008 and the retailers (starting with BB) willl shortly thereafter begin to stop stocking HDDVD. Don't worry you'll still have Amazon & Netflix. Maybe.

It doesn't look that way to me.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

I'm curious to see how the numbers look as well. Do you have any predictions?
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