Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 3651 Old 08-06-2007, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

Can you please elaborate more on this?
If I buy a BD-R from sony and burn my content, is that considered a AACS approved media?

There is no AACS approved media in the market at the moment that I am aware of. If you are burning content that only requires data mode, or BDAV, then you should have no problems.

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post #1802 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dawson View Post

Actually I don't think there is much wrong with the basic recording quality of most music - modern tools and higher sampling rates/bit depths enable us to capture pretty much all that the human ear can hear. And I have had the privelege through the AES (Audio Engineering Society) to meet many people in the recording trade who care deeply about what they do.

The problem comes IMO with the mastering of albums, especially "popular" ones, into the delivery format. From what I have heard the old broadcasting station model of "add more compression, I want our station to sound louder than the others" has spread to the music industry. There are increasing numbers of examples of multi-band compression being applied to CD releases so that 0dBFs is hit hundreds of times in the course of a song - with hard clipping too - and it doesn't sound pretty. Add to that more compression when rebroadcasting on FM, or the destruction that this class of signal brings to the normal perceptual masking techniques of MP3 etc, and it only gets worse.

I understand there is some reaction starting to set in against this now - it can't come soon enough for me.

CD at its best is extremely good, albeit limited to stereo. We already have DVD-Audio and SACD in place for very high quality music distribution in 2- 6 channels - without much success not least due to two minority formats competing for a minority audience. I see many parallels in the current HD video disc situation, especially in PAL land (incidentally representing some 90% of the world's population) where the basic 576i/50Hz SD video quality is quite a bit better than 480i. I suspect it is going to be a long haul to convince a large percentage of the wider DVD audience to upgrade to HD.

John Dawson (Arcam)
Industry Insider

John,

Let me ask you this. When whas the last time you heard a recording that gave you goose bumps?

When I listened to recordings made of live performance without layer upon layer of digital recording, processing and mixing, I got a completely different experience than what I hear in 98% of the recordings today.

The business has changed, but I am hoping for a renaissance...

The popularity of heavy psychoacoustic compression? I find it hard to take.... In my own household, I can't get my teenage daughter to consider listening to an uncompressed version of her favorite songs. She will buy some good music from the 70's and 80's, but at 128kbps....

I'm not going to carry on about the good ol' days, I just think that the music business had a lot going for it before audio workstations came on the scene...

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post #1803 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I'm pretty sure you can't answer, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway. Can you give us a ballpark for how many BD50s the 300 release took?

--Darin

I don't know... We'll have to wait for the Neilsen data...

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post #1804 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently.

Consumers will be able to record their own authored movies using recorded media designed for this purpose (as specified by AACS). This media is designed to stop copies of copies of copyrighted material, something we can't prevent right now with the current media and drives.

Rest assured that Apple and other companies have been very vocal in the BDA to insure that consumers will have the ability to take full advantage of the movie specifications to make full featured discs if they so desire.

PaidGeek,

Thank you for your candid responses. I had not been aware that support for BD-R playback on Blu-ray players was only a temporary capability (my understanding this is just BDMV on HD-R that is affected, BDAV should still work but provides much less authoring capability - is this the correct understanding?).

You mention that this will be possible using media designed for this purpose, per AACS. Since AACS is brought into the equation, this seems to his imply some form of managed-copy, which makes sense for copies of copyrighted sources. However, from your statements it also seems this AACS verification (I assume some additional process must be going on to ensure that the source material is not copyrighted) is also necessary for user created content. What is the process for determining whether a source is a "Home Video" project vs. an illegal download (ie. "copies of copies of copyrighted material")?

Amir or other HD DVD insider,

Since this is regulated by AACS, does this mean that HD DVD will also be restricted in the same way? Will HD DVD-R playback be restricted in current or upcoming HD DVD models (at least without special AACS approved media/process)? More specifically, are there limitations on creating fully interactive titles (a la HDMV)?

Thanks to all insiders for the invaluable information provided in this thread!

Post-production house Insider, Representing my own point of view
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post #1805 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Pennell View Post

The Xbox can physically do 1080i@50Hz as you have noted by the dashboard setting. However for Xbox applications supporting PAL50 is optional (as many games are very tied to the video framerate). This is not as terrible a restriction as you may think as the European HDTV standard mandates 60Hz support (hoorah to the Europeans ).

farenheit, what format is your file in when played on the Xbox (ie which player are you playing it with)?

Thanks Andy, I'm a steadfast supporter of playing games at 60Hz, so being able to set 50Hz HD resolutions for 360 games is something I do not wish to see. But video playback is an entirely different story.

The camcorder (Canon HV20) is tape-based MPEG2 HDV,1080i (1440 x 1080) at 50Hz.
The format I have been experimenting with so far for playback has been WM9 Advanced profile in both 720p and 1080i @ 50Hz. I'm playing back on the 360 locally, either from a DVD-R or attached USB2.0 hard drive.

As Paul has mentioned just after your post, the judder from framerate conversion makes the playback unsuitable.

I'm not sure how native 50Hz material is handled by the 360 and what flags are inplace to tell the console when it needs to output at 50 or 60Hz, but if there is a way to seemlessly do this without any input from the user, then it would make for a perfect solution for what I want to do.

1080i and 720p at 50Hz display options were not part of the firmware at launch, so it was clearly added for some purpose, I just hope that it isn't merely for the splattering of PAL backwards compatible Xbox games that were 50Hz only.

Thanks for your input.
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post #1806 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 01:06 AM
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Two questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurray View Post

Thank you for your candid responses. I had not been aware that support for BD-R playback on Blu-ray players was only a temporary capability

This restriction refers only to BDMV on BD-R, not BD-R playback in general, correct?

Warner says:
Quote:


Since July 31, 2007, 300 has sold more than 250,000 copies to consumers on HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.

How could they possibly have Point of Sale numbers this quickly? Doesn't this refer to discs shipped?
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post #1807 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

There is no AACS approved media in the market at the moment that I am aware of. If you are burning content that only requires data mode, or BDAV, then you should have no problems.

Out of curiosity, how much does AACS approval add to the cost of a blank right now or perhaps how much is AACS projected to add to the cost of a blank when such discs are available? I don't recall anything like this EVER mentioned when BD was being pushed as the end-all be-all of recordable media.

On the same topic for HD-DVD insiders, is there any similar AACS requirement in the specs for HD-DVD blanks? The price of blanks being kept artificially high due to AACS smacks of an industry-imposed tax on blank media.
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post #1808 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 06:11 AM
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I wonder if some of the other non-neutral studios will start paying attention:

http://home.businesswire.com/portal...367&newsLang=en

Quote:


Warner Home Video Breaks Another High Definition Record with ``300,'' the Fastest Selling Title with More Than 250K Copies Sold in Its First Full Week

BURBANK, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Today Warner Home Video (WHV) announced that it has the fastest and highest-selling high definition title in the market with the epic action-adventure, 300. Since July 31, 2007, 300 has sold more than 250,000 copies to consumers on HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.

300 provides another high definition milestone for Warner Home Video which was the first studio to break the 100K sold mark with The Departed. Overall WHV has six of the top 10 selling high definition titles with 300, The Departed, Superman Returns, Planet Earth - The Complete Collection, Batman Begins, and Happy Feet. Warner also has the highest grossing high definition title with the dual-format release of Planet Earth.

300' is an amazing film, and the high definition sales we are seeing underscores the positive business benefits of supporting both HD DVD and Blu-ray, said Ron Sanders, President of Warner Home Video. This phenomenal response to 300' is the latest proof that our approach makes the most sense in today's market and has enabled Warner Home Video to continue to lead the market in high definition sales.

As a result of its dual format strategy, WHV has more than 30% market share of DVD sales in the high definition market, selling more high definition product and releasing more titles than any other studio. Because of two competing high definition formats in the market, it is widely recognized that hardware prices for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD have fallen faster than would normally be expected at this stage in the product cycle. However, research organizations, such as ABI Research(a), predict that further price reductions of hardware are needed to fuel mass adoption of high definition formats.

...

Too bad cjplay is no longer around...if you are still reading, CONGRATS!!

Insiders, are studios starting to question their non-nuetrality? Will they let the neutral studios eat their lunch?
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post #1809 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 06:15 AM
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to any warner brothers insiders, or those with wb inside knowledge, does the above article refer to sales to end consumers, or to stores? and if it's to end consumers will this signal the end of wb's insistence on the pip hold-up for a number of their titles as yet to be released on bd? since it would seem from the public response that pip is not particularly key to their purchasing decisions.
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post #1810 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

For SM1 and SM2 that is correct.

You stated that english lossless sound will only be available in the UK for SM1 and SM2, does this mean that the upcoming swedish releases of SM1 and SM2 will only feature lossy sound? Or do we get the UK version just with a different case..?
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post #1811 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

John,

Let me ask you this. When whas the last time you heard a recording that gave you goose bumps?

When I listened to recordings made of live performance without layer upon layer of digital recording, processing and mixing, I got a completely different experience than what I hear in 98% of the recordings today.

The business has changed, but I am hoping for a renaissance...

The popularity of heavy psychoacoustic compression? I find it hard to take.... In my own household, I can't get my teenage daughter to consider listening to an uncompressed version of her favorite songs. She will buy some good music from the 70's and 80's, but at 128kbps....

I'm not going to carry on about the good ol' days, I just think that the music business had a lot going for it before audio workstations came on the scene...

Heh - you've made a good point there - though I'm confident we are both singing from the same hymn sheet.

I can think of a few goosebumpers I've heard recently that have the magic. These include old stuff I have been revisiting - Sgt Pepper for example or Pink Floyd stuff (showing my age here!) and one or two new things - some of Mark Waldrep's hi res material on Aix records or the Beatles Love material (both on DVD-A/V media). I don't think it depends so much on the tools more on how the tools are deployed and by whom

At the recent AES hi res audio conference in London Phil Hobbs of Linn records gave a really thought provoking demo using a 5 minute stereo recording of part of Handel's Messiah. It sounded great to start with but by the end it seemed much less involving. It turns out Phil had progressively reduced the resolution as the piece played through, starting with SACD (well actually 24/96 on the DVD-A used for the demo), then 16/44.1 followed by two layers of compressed audio ending with 192 kbits/sec MP3. It was definitely still Handel at the end but just boring.......like the chorus and the orchestra had simply lost interest.

Of course that's difficult to measure objectively, but it is a real effect.

As to how this all pans out in terms of delivering top quality to a minority audience - it's anyone's guess. I doubt it will be via major B & M retailers in most cases though. Linn for example is trialling hi-res distribution of its catalogue via downloads - I believe you can then rerecord the hi-res version onto DVD-R as DVD-Audio files if you want archiving and portability.

John Dawson (ARCAM)
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post #1812 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

"...Consumers will be able to record their own authored movies using recorded media designed for this purpose (as specified by AACS). This media is designed to stop copies of copies of copyrighted material, something we can't prevent right now with the current media and drives."

When you say "recorded" media, are you saying we have to get our BDMV authored collaborations pressed onto AACS BD-ROM?

Or will there be dye based "recordable" media and drives supporting AACS?

If so, when?
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post #1813 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently.

Consumers will be able to record their own authored movies using recorded media designed for this purpose (as specified by AACS). This media is designed to stop copies of copies of copyrighted material, something we can't prevent right now with the current media and drives.

Rest assured that Apple and other companies have been very vocal in the BDA to insure that consumers will have the ability to take full advantage of the movie specifications to make full featured discs if they so desire.

Paidgeek, thanks for clarifying the rollback of BD-R BDMV playback - that explains the observations in the field.

Followup questions:

1) Is there an approved specification available for these "AACS BD-R" discs somewhere that we can view today, or is this in development?

2) When do you estimate that these "AACS BD-R" discs will be on the market for regular buyers?

3) What purpose will can regular "non-AACS" BD-R/RE discs currently on the market serve any more to buyers, in terms of home users creating video content??

4) Why didn't the BDA consider this issue before the launch of the format, instead of retro-fitting this late in the game?
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post #1814 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

First, if you have a specific problem with 300, please PM me and I will purchase the disc from you so that we can diagnose the problem. And I will give you a free gift for all your troubles (oops, I don't think you want to wear an HD DVD t-shirt, do you? ).

We have contacted Warner and they say hardly anyone has called their customer service to complain about 300. If people have problems, they should contact them. We do not replicate content. Nor do we write drive firmware (we buy our drives). So putting us on spot is not as helpful. Calling the studio and reporting the problem to them, rather than here, is the best way to resolve any potential issues. Please don't be afraid of contacting them and getting satisfaction through exchanging your media or other remedies. They want to hear from you if you are having problems.

Do you have a contact info for Warner? I found an address on their website to return defective discs, but no phone number.

I'm also having problems with my 300 disc, and was going to send it back to Amazon for exchange. I'll send it to Warner instead if that will help prevent future problems like this.

I already geek out occasionally with my HD DVD shirt that I got from your tour.
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post #1815 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidboy View Post

Do you have a contact info for Warner? I found an address on their website to return defective discs, but no phone number.

I'm also having problems with my 300 disc, and was going to send it back to Amazon for exchange. I'll send it to Warner instead if that will help prevent future problems like this.

I already geek out occasionally with my HD DVD shirt that I got from your tour.

Amirm,
Id like to geek out abit to, where might i get one of these HD DVD t-shirts?
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post #1816 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 08:47 AM
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paidgeek, is the US BD of Starship Troopers going to be even better than the UK BD from Buena Vista?
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post #1817 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

John,

Let me ask you this. When whas the last time you heard a recording that gave you goose bumps?

When I listened to recordings made of live performance without layer upon layer of digital recording, processing and mixing, I got a completely different experience than what I hear in 98% of the recordings today.

The business has changed, but I am hoping for a renaissance...

It seems like the "market" is bifurcating, and dramatically so. A/V enthusiasts are going for larger and larger displays and lossless codecs, while the yout are playing MP3 and movies on their cellphones with 2" screens. Even though I've ripped my CD collection to AAC at 320kbps and play it through the "house" system, I would never use that source for critical listening. How do media companies market to such diverse audiences?
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post #1818 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

paidgeek:

Can you please provide a little more clarification on the BDMV issue?

1. Will these new blank AACS discs be like normal recordable media? Meaning can I just buy them off the shelf and burn them in my consumer drive?

2. Will these new blank AACS discs carry a price premium over current blanks?

3. Will these new blank AACS discs work in the current Blu-ray burners?

Thank you.

I don't have answers to these questions yet, but I am working on it... I hope others representing AACS or BD will help here as well..

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #1819 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga View Post

paidgeek, is the US BD of Starship Troopers going to be even better than the UK BD from Buena Vista?

I have not screened the Disney version, but I'll see if I can get my hands on one. This is a challenging title. It was made with effects from many different companies and on Blu-ray, you will be able to spot that. That said, there are some shots that are spectacular.

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post #1820 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

When you say "recorded" media, are you saying we have to get our BDMV authored collaborations pressed onto AACS BD-ROM?

Or will there be dye based "recordable" media and drives supporting AACS?

If so, when?

Excuse the typo. I corrected this in the earlier post..

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post #1821 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post


1) Is there an approved specification available for these "AACS BD-R" discs somewhere that we can view today, or is this in development?

I have not kept track of the recordable specs, but I am looking into getting an update.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

2) When do you estimate that these "AACS BD-R" discs will be on the market for regular buyers?

I don't know. I'll see what I can find out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

3) What purpose will can regular "non-AACS" BD-R/RE discs currently on the market serve any more to buyers, in terms of home users creating video content??

Existing media can be used for BDAV, or HDAVC content. HDAVC seems to be a pretty good spec for making HD movie discs with the basic features of DVD. We are looking into this for our own purposes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

4) Why didn't the BDA consider this issue before the launch of the format, instead of retro-fitting this late in the game?

I think you mis-understood my earlier post. The players were not permitted to play movie content from the current blank media to begin with. There was an exception made for a short period of time to help facilitate testing and demonstrations. This issues has been given consideration since before the launch of the format.

The fundamental issue is easy to understand. The studios cannot accept the use of blank media for making clones of copyrighted discs. The computer industry wants to empower consumers to fully utilize the format and that is fine, so long as measures are taken to protect copyright.

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post #1822 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:33 AM
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For HD-DVD Insiders,

Will 'AACS Approved Discs' be required for HD DVD-R's (and their siblings) as well in order to build basic menu functionality, etc?

Also, with all the recent requests for HD DVD T-Shirts, I would like to remind everyone that the line starts behind me.
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post #1823 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:42 AM
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Paidgeek - thank you for helping answer some of these questions from us on the BD-R BDMV issue. I realize that your role is mainly with Sony Pictures, but am glad that you are able to get some of this info for us from inside.

A lot of folks are concerned about this and have continuing questions, as you can se. I wish you the best of luck in being able to get the facts for us - and again, just want to say thank you.
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post #1824 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 09:51 AM
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paidgeek,

my company has been sending HD contents to our corporate clients for pretty much the past year now.

All of that contents was authored in BDMV mode on BD-R 25GB discs. We are talking about several thousand discs (ca. 140 different projects).

Will the restriction on playback of BDMV authored contents on "non-AACS enabled BD-R discs" render all of these discs useless?

We would have to redo all discs for our clients, and I am sure most of them will not be happy about that (to say it mildly). It is not an option to tell them not to update their players, and many of the discs have also been given to third parties.

Of course, this will cause significant costs to us - not just the need to buy new "AACS BD-Rs), but mainly the additional time needed to burn the discs again.

As I see it, there will be no way to avoid that situation, but I would love to be corrected by you if you see some remedy for that.


To HD DVD insiders,

since we have also done quite a number of those discs on HD DVD 9, will this "recordable disc AACS restriction" also affect HD DVD players in the future?
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post #1825 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 10:26 AM
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Does Microsoft derive any royalty income from HD-DVD?

This is a "yes" or "no" question.
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post #1826 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Will 'AACS Approved Discs' be required for HD DVD-R's (and their siblings) as well in order to build basic menu functionality, etc?

Nope (thank goodness)!

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post #1827 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Does Microsoft derive any royalty income from HD-DVD?

Most if not all of the BD companies, including Sony, derive royalty income from HD DVD!!!

OK, to phrase as a question, Isn' this correct?
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post #1828 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

...

The fundamental issue is easy to understand. The studios cannot accept the use of blank media for making clones of copyrighted discs. The computer industry wants to empower consumers to fully utilize the format and that is fine, so long as measures are taken to protect copyright.

Why is this affecting the use of non-copyrighted source, or am I missing something here?
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post #1829 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 11:09 AM
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I had the impression that ROM Mark was suppose to take care of the unauthorized (pirated) copying.
Based on the latest updates, does it mean that all new BD players (and firmware updated old ones) when attempring to play a non-BD-ROM and non-AACS-approved disc that was authored using BDMV, will label this disk as an unauthorized copy of copyrighted material and refuse to play it on grounds of copyright infringement?

Is ROM Mark retired?

Diogen.
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post #1830 of 3651 Old 08-07-2007, 11:11 AM
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HD DVD insiders-

Can you say if there are known titles being worked on or considered for supporting video streaming through the internet? Now that a few titles can get online, I assume this is the next step for HDi/ethernet capabilities of HD DVD.

I understand you can't announce titles for studios, but can you at least say whether it's being talked about for the near future?
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