Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 84 - AVS Forum
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post #2491 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 01:40 AM
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If the interactivity features and bonus features are such a big deal, why aren't they subtitled like the main movie on most releases?
I'm hard of hearing and the lack of subtitling on HD formats in the United Kingdom and the US is a main drawback of the new format, because I'm not willing to spend 25 on a HD disc, when I can't use/enjoy the new features and when the DVD is available for 10 or less and is as good or even better subtitled.
(I'm from Germany, but I purchase most of my DVDs online in other countries, so the "strange" currency use).
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post #2492 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 03:34 AM
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Can anyone insider comment on why Ultimate AV site reviewer Shane C. Buettner makes the following comment as to why MGM Studios made the "choice" to stick with the Blu-ray format?

Quote:
"...MGM was bought by Sony a couple of years ago but retained enough autonomy to choose its own video distribution partner. Perhaps surprisingly it did not choose Sony Pictures, but instead chose Fox (don't know exactly where the line was drawn, but I'm guessing that it was suggested to stick with a Blu-ray exclusive studio)."

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/82007fox/

Since Sony owns MGM did they really have a choice not to pick Blu-ray?
Mr. Buettner's comments leave me confused. Please clarify!
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post #2493 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule View Post

Since AACS is required on Blu-Ray discs as mentioned on your site, why aren't the fees implemented in pricing, or is it already? If not, is Pacific Disc allowing discs to be produced without AACS (making them unplayable on players).

AACS is required on all Blu-ray discs and is listed as so here http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingBluRay.html

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post #2494 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Thanks, PacificDisc. Does that mean that Sony is the only replicator for BD50s, then? That means that with, for instance, PacificDisc, the independents can only produce BD25s, in comparison to HD DVD 30s?

I've not heard of anyone else being able to produce BD50s, outside of SONY and don't expect that to change any time soon - again with the caveat that this could change at any moment.

Obviously if something happens in this area, I'll let everyone know here.

Thanks

- Owen
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post #2495 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Can anyone insider comment on why Ultimate AV site reviewer Shane C. Buettner makes the following comment as to why MGM Studios made the "choice" to stick with the Blu-ray format?

Quote:
"...MGM was bought by Sony a couple of years ago but retained enough autonomy to choose its own video distribution partner. Perhaps surprisingly it did not choose Sony Pictures, but instead chose Fox (don't know exactly where the line was drawn, but I'm guessing that it was suggested to stick with a Blu-ray exclusive studio)."

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/82007fox/

Since Sony owns MGM did they really have a choice not to pick Blu-ray?
Mr. Buettner's comments leave me confused. Please clarify!

A follow up question for paidgeek. Can you say what percentage MGM Sony actually owns these days. I was thinking it was only about 20% but that's just from a hazy memory of something I read months ago. Is it more?

- Tom

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post #2496 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Universal drive which is the key ingredient is already available to CE OEMs. We already have LG and Samsung in market. So not sure what is premature about it.

I already have a combo player: PowerDVD

Do you know when we may have a universal drive for our PCs?

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post #2497 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificDisc View Post

As I had hinted recently, PacificDisc has just lowered the minimum order size for HD & BD replication from 5000 discs to just 1000 discs.

More details, including prices can be found here:

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.html

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingBluRay.html

This is due to a pent-up demand in the independent market, with many content owners wanting to release product in HiDef formats.

Will let you know how things go and as ever, if you have any questions - shout!

Sean,

Thanks for the information. To be clear, your company is a replication broker and does not physically produce these discs itself?
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post #2498 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

It has been shown that the number of HD-DVD titles with lossless or PCM compared with Blu-ray is less by a substantial multiple.

We are counting on lossless coding for audio tracks on European releases, even so, we would like more space and more bandwidth. The economics of having to make a separate release for every territory to fit lossless audio on the HD-DVD releases that can even fit one are not so good...

paigeek,

As of July 31st, 2007:

There are 154 Blu-ray titles in North America with lossless audio.
There are 43 HD DVD titles in North America with lossless audio.

121 of the 284 Blu-ray titles currently available in North America have PCM. That's 42.6%

19 titles have 24-bit PCM.
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post #2499 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:00 AM
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Amir,

Would you mind elaborating more on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

A top title can cost up to $500K to produce if it has nice interactivity and bunch of extras. Let's assume that a studio wants to come close to what Universal has done in releasing > 100 titles in a year and half. That puts the up front cost at $50M right there! Who should pay for this? One could make the argument that studios should because they will reap the benefits later. Others say no, the people with the patents should.

Are you saying that Microsoft as the patent holder is assuming these production costs? If so, are you assuming these costs for Paramount? Universal? Warner?

Thanks,

Mike
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post #2500 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efxmaster View Post

I didn't think so either.

This post was what was making me a bit curious what the heck they could be thinking...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...3&postcount=11

oh, i know what it must be...universal will declare neutrality at CES2007.

- Chris
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post #2501 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

As of July 31st, 2007:

There are 154 Blu-ray titles in North America with lossless audio.
There are 43 HD DVD titles in North America with lossless audio.

121 of the 284 Blu-ray titles currently available in North America have PCM. That's 42.6%

19 titles have 24-bit PCM.

Well, if the original master is 24bit, which is nearer to the master?

(a) 16bit TrueHD/PCM
(b) 24bit DD+

IMHO you cannot name 16bit PCM "lossless" if the master has 20bit or 24bit. So IMHO your statistic is wrong.

I'm wondering whether all studios have done their own tests about this? paidgeek? Has Sony done some studies about which (16bit PCM vs 24bit DD+) is better?
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post #2502 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:52 AM
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Amir,

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That is the hard way. That is, you open the 800 page HD DVD interactivity spec, you try a bit and give up one quarter of way and call it done. The other way is to license a working version which is what we have. You get up and runing with the same code running in Toshiba and Xbox players and you are good to go, to say nothing of the support we provide.

Talk makes it sound like if you want to own a car, you have to figure out how to build the engine

Since the market for dual format players is so small, wouldn't the licensing fees add a considerable cost to the dual-format players or has Microsoft developed this out of thier own generosity?


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Sure. I explained some above. But basically, we are making sure that our HD DVD stack can co-exist with BD stack on the same silicon. That way, someone can build dual format players without dealing with much of the complexity. Yes, there is more testing but lot of the heavy lifting is already done for them.

To be more blunt, the only barrier ahead of any BD company to support dual format is politcal will, not system complexity.

Couldn't the same be said for Toshiba? Wouldn't they have more to gain by building a dual-format player since Blu-Ray has a larger market share???

Thanks,

Mike
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post #2503 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:53 AM
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Blu Ray Insiders Question.

Yesterday a AVS member Beatboy77 who claims he has inside ties to all the studios stated:

Guys I am around 24 to 48 hours away from being able to report a MAJOR Blu-ray announcement. I have learned today from a BDA insider that this Paramount development was actually a pre-emptive strike to counter a soon to be made MAJOR annoucement from the BDA.

Assuming everything falls in place as this insider expects, it will be the biggest shot fired thus far in this format war. If this contract can be secured by the BDA this will be the end of this format war, no doubt.

As soon as I get the OK, I will post here in the Blu-ray section. If this happens it gives me new hope that HDM will survive.


Is this true...is there something going on in the Blu Ray camp that will be as huge as claimed by Beatboy77. The 48 hours is almost up. I mean a statment like this (If this contract can be secured by the BDA this will be the end of this format war, no doubt.) is a really huge statement. Any comment?

Joe V.
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post #2504 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:11 AM
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To Amir:

Have the HD DVD camp figured out how to stop the players from transforming into evil robots and killing their owners while they sleep?

To Paidgeek/Talkstr8:

Will the next Sony firmware upgrade disable the "feature" that has the machine slowly drain users souls leaving them empty shells who obey all commands to power the BD drive?

To All:

Is the fact that a question about the machines involved in the format war killing us is less biased than 75% or so of the questions in this thread as disturbing to you as it is to me?
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post #2505 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealEstateWagon View Post

Any insider

If Spielberg wants to release a Paramount-movie on both blu-ray and HD DVD, who will pay for the blu-ray production? Paramount or Spielberg himself?

The studio would. Spielberg has a say on how his content comes out but the actual distribution is always up to the studio.

While we are on this topic, I have been told by a studio insider that with respect to Close Encounters though, he does not have veto power over the distribution format. So the studio could have made that choice. Paid, can you kindly confirm/refute this? I don't want to go by second hand info.

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post #2506 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfinity View Post

We are already used to stuff like this. It's very common for BD folks, no surprises.



And this is one of the greatest things HD DVD will give us. Dynamic content on static (non-rewritable) medium. How cool is that.


Amir, to you knowledge how involved is Warner with HD DVD? Judging by majority of releases only available on HD DVD and with superb interactive features, I'm curious to know the level of their current involvement with HD DVD.

Warner and Sony are in a different class than other studios by producing their HD content using in house production companies. In this case, it is GDMX which does the work for them (cjplay insider worked there).

Quote:


When they announced delay until further notice for TotalHD it seemed that Warner might actually lean more towards HD DVD exclusivity then staying neutral. It just seems that they very much love and appreciate HD DVD and HDi. Can you give me some of your comments on that, if anything your personal observations. Thanks.

I don’t want to speak for them but my belief is that they are trying to treat both equally but hamstrung by lack of functionality, performance and stability of interactivity subsystem in BD. Warner and Disney were adamant about what features had to be mandatory in an HD format in DVD Forum. To have joined BDA later and find that the same features were not mandatory there, must have come as a shock to them given the fact that some of the same members are on the board of DVD Forum so must have heard their pleas yet ignored them in the alternative format.

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post #2507 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Well, if the original master is 24bit, which is nearer to the master?

(a) 16bit TrueHD/PCM
(b) 24bit DD+

IMHO you cannot name 16bit PCM "lossless" if the master has 20bit or 24bit. So IMHO your statistic is wrong.

I'm wondering whether all studios have done their own tests about this? paidgeek? Has Sony done some studies about which (16bit PCM vs 24bit DD+) is better?

Yes, we have compared, and there is no comparison. Going through a perceptual coder changes the sound of the mix in distinct ways.

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post #2508 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Because Universal which has published more titles than any BD studio, long time ago did internal tests and decided that 1.5 mbit/sec DD+ produced superb quality. So that is what they have been doing. Yes, they are adding lossless because you all keep picking at it so they are going for the checkbox.

Regardless, you made a false accusation that lossless is a theoretical thing. Saying there are less titles than BD doesn't validate that statement the least.

A false accusation? What I said is that there are far fewer losslessly encoded or PCM encoded audio tracks on HD-DVD because they don't always fit. Ask Paramount why you may not get a lossless track on Transformers... Universal may be satisfied with lossy encoding, but the reaction to PCM and lossless has been overwhelmingly positive. Do you think that we are all just kidding ourselves that we are hearing something better when we really don't?


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

A lot of respect for folks there, where at the same time, you have added region coding to keep their choices more limited.

Spinning a little here? We don't region coding often and if its use allows us to bring a big box office title to market earlier, why shouldn't we?


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

First, we can have many audio tracks on HD DVDs and those tracks can exceed the quality of DVD. If you think there is a big market for lossless tracks for all of those langauges, then great. We can download them and have them take zero bandwidth or storage away from the title. Let's see who has better picture quality then .

Download them and then do what with them? Do I need to download 5GB every time I want to watch my favorite movie again? For commentaries or something you may want to listen to only once, then okay, but main program audio? Not so good...

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #2509 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDV View Post

Amir,

Since the market for dual format players is so small, wouldn't the licensing fees add a considerable cost to the dual-format players or has Microsoft developed this out of thier own generosity?

If the market is small, then these are specialized products which appeal to enthusiasts. For good or bad, enthusiasts are less price sensitive so this is not a problem. Also, if the market is small, it is immaterial what happens here. Those people will also buy two players as I suspect fair number of AVS members have done.

As to us, we are haven't produced a dual-format player. What we have done is build our HD DVD environment so that it can sit side-by-side with BD environment provided by others. It was not really much work anyway. The other thing we have done is support companies who want to do that rather telling them to "talk to the hand" just because they dared to also want to implement BD format.


Quote:


Couldn't the same be said for Toshiba? Wouldn't they have more to gain by building a dual-format player since Blu-Ray has a larger market share???

No, the market dynamics are not the same. We have not built a game console which is more capable than stand-alone players whereas that is what Sony has done. Nor are we bundling the HD DVD drive in every console. In addition, Toshiba has price on their side and are already far cheaper than a 360+HD DVD drive. Such is not the case with BD.

I have spoken to a number of high-end A/V stores and very few carry BD players. When I ask why they say the reason is simple. Everyone wants to buy a PS3 because they think it is a better player and is better able to cope with profiles. They have tried to carry stand-alone products but no one buys them so they have given up. And since there is essentially zero margin in selling a game console, they have no interest in selling it either.

Sadly, many are not selling HD DVD players either. Most are not Toshiba dealers although this is starting to change given the strength of Toshiba's LCD business. And Onkyo and other OEMs coming to market is helping.

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post #2510 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

A follow up question for paidgeek. Can you say what percentage MGM Sony actually owns these days. I was thinking it was only about 20% but that's just from a hazy memory of something I read months ago. Is it more?

- Tom

Sorry Tom, I have no idea.

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post #2511 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:39 AM
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Question for Amir: Given the recent upswing in momentum for HD DVD, is Microsoft considering releasing their own fully integrated HD DVD playback solution for Vista Media Center (x86 and x64)?

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post #2512 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:55 AM
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The Paramount exec mentioned HD DVD TL45 in passing.

Is TL45 still in development, parallel with TL51 (and DL34)?
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post #2513 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:56 AM
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Question for Blu Ray insiders:

Do any of the major studios use independent replication services (for Blu Ray discs) or do they all use Sony?
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post #2514 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:17 AM
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anyone know how many average consumers have the hardware necessary to hear the lossless audio, whether it be PCM or some lossless compression scheme?

for both pcm and lossless compression you require an AVR with either HDMI input or multi-channel analog inputs, and of course the proper speaker setup (not to mention the room)...

many of the people i know in my day to day life, both affluent and not, don't even know what the hell any of the acronyms/technical terms mean, much less really care about lossless audio when watching a movie (i think that may be the real reason that dvd-audio and sacd never went anywhere, the massess really didn't care for it, not that there was a format war).

i and probably most here at avs can appreciate the distinction and performance advantages, but we are so far in the minority it sometimes make me wonder why we think everything should be done to satisfy our wants/needs when the wants/needs of the masses far outweigh our own.

to insiders on both sides, other than for the sake of one-upmanship and spec sheet battles, etc., do your respective companies consider this? will the increased audio fidelity we are getting now in response to early adopters crying for more for the sake of being able to claim mine is better than yours because of _________ ability or b/c the few really can appreciate the increased performance, will this continue when/if a victor is claimed or will things settle back to appeasing the masses for the most part?
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post #2515 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:18 AM
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Question for HD insiders. One off big bangs like Paramount are nice, they get a lot of press. But in a week or two things settle down again.

So is there a rolling thunder plan in place? Can we expect a few more big announcements over the next two months on par with this one? Or was this it? Not that is was small, but in two weeks it will be history and mixed and mired in folks brains.

Why pick a fight over a disc format?
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post #2516 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

A false accusation? What I said is that there are far fewer losslessly encoded or PCM encoded audio tracks on HD-DVD because they don't always fit.

But that is not what you said or I may have let it alone . Here is what you said that got me going:

Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

There have been endless debates in the forum about the theoretical ability to fit lossless audio on HD-DVD, but the actual releases tell the story.

Assuming the data just posted is accurate (there are many more titles with DTS lossless in Europe), in your book, 43 titles means it is a theoretical feature?

I have trouble even with your new statement. Please show me evidence that Universal put 1.5 Mbit/sec DD+ on majority of their titles because it did not fit.

Quote:


Ask Paramount why you may not get a lossless track on Transformers...

May not? So you don't know if they will or will not put lossless track on it but go ahead and use it as a proof point in this argument?

Quote:


Universal may be satisfied with lossy encoding, but the reaction to PCM and lossless has been overwhelmingly positive. Do you think that we are all just kidding ourselves that we are hearing something better when we really don't?

I absolutely think in some cases you absolutely are kidding yourself (well, not really, you are going after marketing specs not fidelity but you use that word so I will also go with it ). 24-bit audio? For a movie soundtrack? Please tell me what double blind tests you have done that shows 24-bit audio is superior in any way over properly dithered 20 or even 16-bits. The science is not on your side, and neither are actual results. Yet here you are, bragging about 24-bit audio to use up bandwidth and space.

As to lossy vs lossless, isn't it strange that no broad study has been done to prove its benefits for movies in surround? Why not conduct a double blind test of 100 movie buffs with 1.5 mbit/sec DD+ against PCM audio and see what percentage can tell the difference when they are level matched? I mean if this is such an essential feature and folks have to be an idiot to not hear the difference, the tests should be overwhelmingly in your favor, right?

As to folks imagining things on current discs, well, there is no attempt to make those tests fair by making levels identical. And of course, they are never blind. In audio testing, getting these two things right are essential to arrive at good results.

Mind you, I am a big fan of lossless for music. And I am not here to say that lossy=lossless. It is not. I am just after not letting people think that because they put high octane gas in their engine, their car all of a sudden runs twice as fast because the number is bigger.

Quote:


Spinning a little here? We don't region coding often and if its use allows us to bring a big box office title to market earlier, why shouldn't we?

Are you saying that you will be able to bring movies to market sooner than Warner, Paramount and Universal because you have region coding? How is that so?

Your stance seems to be that BD format is a better thing for consumers. Yet region coding is one of the most hated "features" of DVD for people living outside of US. Even in US it is a pain. I have gotten amazing gift packages of Anime from our content partners in Japan, only to see the excitement from my children turn into a puzzled look when they can't play them in their US players. I had to get them a Japanese HD DVD player so that they can watch them!

Many people rip DVDs and burn them so that they can get rid of region coding. We don't want to create a format where it entices people to get around its copy protection for these reasons.

And doesn't Sony sell DVD players outside of US which allows region coding to be defeated? How is that consistent with your views?

Look, I am fine with region coding if all the studios wanted it and would not publish content without it. But studios representing majority of movies in the world don't seem to have a use for it. And some are adamantly against it as an ineffective system. They believe and rightly so, that we need to move to a worldwide release of the content at some point, rather than hanging on to an antiquated, linear and delayed release cycles.

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Download them and then do what with them? Do I need to download 5GB every time I want to watch my favorite movie again?

Of course you don't. You download it once and play it forever from that point on. If you run out of space and/or happy with the track that came with the disc, you can delete them. It is not like the disc won't play without the extra track.
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For commentaries or something you may want to listen to only once, then okay, but main program audio? Not so good...

It is not the main audio. Main audio can be encoded at 640Kps DD+ and make plenty of people super happy as this is the same soundtrack used on Paramount/Warner titles in BD and far exceeds the fidelity in DVD format. For the people who want dubbed tracks in lossless, they can download them.

As you have said, BD can't stuff more than a few lossless track on disc anyway. So at some point you have to resort to the same approach I am talking about if you want to satisfy everyone. Last I checked, there are far more languages in the world than I have fingers.

And keep in mind that any bandwidth advantage you think you have over HD DVD goes right out the window as you stuff your discs with redundant PCM+TrueHD streams, or multiple lossless tracks vs. high quality lossy. Put another way, as you shrink the video rate, you reduce whatever quality advantage you want to brag about there for some of the biggest markets in the world which listens to the primary track.

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post #2517 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:41 AM
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Oh, one more thing . Is Sony currently inserting theatrical audio watermarks in its movie soundtracks? If so, do you already and forever remove such marks before releasing them in BD?

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post #2518 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PacificDisc View Post

AACS is required on all Blu-ray discs and is listed as so here http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingBluRay.html

To pacificdisc or any insider:

Am I correct in understanding that the AACS fees that are mandatory to Blu-ray would add substantially to the to cost of Blu-ray production?

As much as 23% extra cost for a 25,000 run of SL BD25 discs with 3 check discs and a master?

Could HD DVD be as much as $19,000 cheaper for a 25,000 unit run and $36,000 cheaper for a 100,000 unit run?
Here's my breakdown based on your charts, assuming 3 check discs and one master:

Code:
scenario lowest cost, 3 check disc 1 master

                 25,000  100,000  25,000  100,000

SL 15GB HD DVD  $33,500  $129,000  $1.34   $1.29  (no AACS)

DL 30GB HD DVD  $40,750  $145,000  $1.63   $1.45   (no AACS)  

SL 25GB Blu-ray $52,500  $165,000  $2.09   $1.65

DL 50GB Blu-ray Not Available 

Any mastering/authoring costs not included, setup included
I calculated this as follows:

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingBluRay.html
http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.html

If I understand things correctly: If an independent producer wanted to produce and release a 25,000 and 100,000 order, on Blu-ray, hey have to use AACS. They could choose to include AACS on HD DVD to avoid the costs but are obligated to use it on Blu-ray.

Dual layer 50GB Blu-ray discs are not available from you.

For replication of a single layer 25GB Blu-ray disc:

25,000 seems to be the run rate economic break point, with costs going down to $1.59 per disc and avoiding the mastering charges.

100,000 is the most economic rate obviously , with costs going down to $1.45 per disc and also avoiding the mastering charges.

But, every time a check disc is created, they incur a $2,500 cost for AACS fees and after they start final production the fees are an additional $0.10 per unit?

So if they have 3 check discs and one final master the Blu-ray mandatory AACS fees increase the Blu-ray replication cost by

= (4 x $2500) + ($0.10 x 100,000)
= $10,000 + $10,000
= $20,000 mandatory AACS fees for the 100,000 unit Blu-ray run

and

= (4 x $2500) + ($0.10 x 25,000)
= $10,000 + $2,500
= $12,500 mandatory AACS fees for the 25,000 unit Blu-ray run

Of course , those cost would be occurred for HD DVD production as well, if the content provider wanted to include AACS, but they could choose to avoid them if they wished.

The base replication cost for the 25,000 25GB Blu-ray discs is $1.59 for 25,000 units for a total running cost of $39,750.

The base replication cost for the 100,000 25GB Blu-ray discs is $1.45 for 100,000 units for a total running cost of $145,000.

Am I correct in seeing that the mandatory AACS requirement would add $20,000 in fees to a replication run of 100,000 25GB Blu-ray discs that would have a base cost $145,000 so that the total price would be $165,000 under that scenario?

That would equate out to $1.65 per unit.

The mandatory AACS fees with 3 check disc and a master would be alone $20,000/$165,000 = adding 12.1% of the cost of a 100,000 unit replication??

=========================================================

Am I correct in seeing that the mandatory AACS requirement would add $12,500 in fees to a replication run of 25,000 25GB Blu-ray discs that would that would have a base cost $39,750 so that the total price would be $52,500 under that scenario?

That would equate out to $2.09 per unit.

The mandatory AACS fees with 3 check disc and a master would be alone $12,500/$52,500 = adding 23.8% of the cost of a 25,000 unit replication??
=========================================================

So for a 25,000 unit 25GB single layer Blu-ray replication the total cost is a minimum $52,500 or $2.09 per unit.

So for a 100,000 unit 25GB single layer Blu-ray replication the total cost is a minimum $165,000 or $1.65 per unit.

=========================================================

For a HD DVD 15GB single layer replication the cost would be $1.34 each for 25,000 units for a base cost of $33,500 with AACS fees optional .That would be a total cost of 1.34 per disc.

For a HD DVD 15 GB single layer replication the cost would be $1.29 each for 100,000 units for a base cost of $129,000 with AACS fees optional .That would be a total cost of 1.29 per disc.

For a HD DVD 30GB double layer replication the cost would be $1.63 each for 25,000 units for a base cost of $40,750 with AACS fees optional .That would be a total cost of 1.63 per disc.

For a HD DVD 30 GB double layer replication the cost would be $1.45 each for 100,000 units for a base cost of $145,000 with AACS fees optional .That would be a total cost of 1.45 per disc.

=========================================================

So if a content provider wanted to produce 25,000 or 100,000 discs in both format , at the lowest costs, with AACS being mandatory for Blu-ray and 3 check discs:

Code:
scenario lowest cost, 3 check disc 1 master

                 25,000  100,000  25,000  100,000

SL 15GB HD DVD  $33,500  $129,000  $1.34   $1.29  (no AACS)

DL 30GB HD DVD  $40,750  $145,000  $1.63   $1.45   (no AACS)  

SL 25GB Blu-ray $52,500  $165,000  $2.09   $1.65

DL 50GB Blu-ray Not Available 

Any mastering/authoring costs not included, setup included
It would seem that the mandatory AACS fees and extra costs fora small content provider would make Blu-ray substantially more expensive to produce.

Under the scenario I provided, with 3 check discs, and no AACS used for HD DVD, a small studio could possibly save $19,000 by using 15GB HD DVD discs or $11,700 by using 30GB HD DVD discs over a BD25 for a small 25,000 replication. A lot of niche content could fit on the 15GB discs using VC-1 or AVC.

They would save $36,000 or $16,000 for 100,000 discs over the Blu-ray total costs.

Would that not be possibly a significant factor in deciding whether or not to release a low volume selling product in HD or not?

.
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post #2519 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Of course you don't. You download it once and play it forever from that point on. If you run out of space and/or happy with the track that came with the disc, you can delete them. It is not like the disc won't play without the extra track.

Amir, are you aware that most european countries require goods and content to be localized in the local language out of the box?

What would be MSFT's solution then for the tens of millions of households who don't have/don't need/can't afford a high speed Internet connection, or simply don't care to download stuff in order to "enable" something they've just bought?

Isn't sometimes simpler to avoid fixing something that ain't broken?
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post #2520 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azumi View Post

Amir, are you aware that most european countries require goods and content to be localized in the local language out of the box?

And they shall be. Does the low require it that audio be lossless? Because that is the argument.

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What would be MSFT's solution then for the tens of millions of households who don't have/don't need/can't afford a high speed Internet connection, or simply don't care to download stuff in order to "enable" something they've just bought?

First, you don't need "high-speed" internet. This is an offline process. You are not attempting to stream in real-time. Second, we are talking lossless audio. What is the intersection of people who care about such an audio difference yet don't have broadband access? Nill I would think.

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Isn't sometimes simpler to avoid fixing something that ain't broken?

But it is broken. No disc is big enough to have a dozen lossless audio tracks on it. So if we care about the world at large (and we do as our software is routinely localized for some 26 langauges), we better be in favor of technology progression to allow everyone to enjoy the movie in their own language or at least subtitles.

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