Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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post #2611 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 01:27 AM
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A question to paidgeek & FilmMixer:

Are movie masters usually done in 48khz or 96khz? If many movie masters are available in 96khz, what is your opinion about using 96khz on Blu-Ray / HD DVD?

Thank you!

(Amir has kindly already posted his opinion on 96khz earlier. But I'd like to hear paidgeek's and FilmMixer's opinion on this, too. Thanks to all the Insiders in this *great* thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

Beginning with newer titles and whenever possible, SPE will provide the original 24bit soundtrack with lossless encoding. If space or bandwidth contraints require it, we may encode at 20 bit, or in some instances 16 bit. This will be handled case by case based on a number of factors.

Just let me say thanks for what Sony is doing audio wise with the recent titles. I like you going to 20bit+. And I like you not using DialNorm.
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post #2612 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

I wonder if they showed him the Blades of Glory features on the Blu-ray Disc which the HD DVD disc didn't have room for...

Really? I'd love to know what that could be, but since there is no Blades of Glory BD, I doubt we'll ever find out. I find it hard to believe, since Blades of Glory is a 93 minute runtime. Hot Fuzz, at a 121 minute runtime had 18 hours of extras, and is considered reference quality. In fact, they could have encoded the entire "Blades of Glory" twice at King Kong quality, and still had enough space for a 3 hour PiP stream on a 30GB disc.

Besides, you're quoting Bill Hunt?? The same guy who is still incorrectly convinced that MS is behind the Paramount thing?
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Other than my position that, in practice, it's a lot more complicated than Amir suggests, the primary hurdle would be optical support for both formats and enough processor overhead to support HDi.

Hmm, and again with the aspersions on HDi's CPU requirements. We have shown HDi running at full speed on a 333 MHz MIPS processor. The only performant BD-J implementation I've seen is on the PS3, a 3.2GHz processor. Glass houses and all that.
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post #2613 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

We have shown HDi running at full speed on a 333 MHz MIPS processor.

What do you estimate to be the current required MIPS (Millions of Instructions per Second, not MIPS processor) to run HDi? In the past, the figure I heard was 600 MIPS.

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post #2614 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 03:51 AM
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Talk,
Do you know if BD-J implementations are licensing "Monty" CLDC/CDC Hotspot implementations, or if they are working with smaller market ISVs (who typically have less performant JITs)? As far back as JavaOne 2003 (or 4?), I saw demonstrations of Monty on a 133Mhz StrongARM PPC rasterizing 3D graphics in Java (not HW accelerated) at 15fps, pretty impressive.

Does BD-J have minimum *java* performance requirements (not CPU mips requirements), because as you know, VM implementations can differ by a factor of 10x in performance?

Finally, are there Heap requirements, minimum GC pause time, etc? RTSJ usage?
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post #2615 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 04:23 AM
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FilmMixer:

It occurs to me to wonder about something with regards to movie sound Cinema vs Home. In the cinema, there is usually ye olde analog track, and some combination of Dolby Digital, DTS, and/or SDDS, yes? Isn't the bitrate of the DD soundtrack a bit lower than that often used on DVDs, and a huge difference from that of HD DVD / BD ? I've read that the cinema uses DD at 320kbit/s, which is quite a bit lower than the usual 384 or 448 bitrates on DVD or the 640kbit-1.5mbit DD and DD+ soundtracks of HD/BD. I'm not sure exactly what bitrate cinema DTS uses, but I imagine it's not the same as home theater usage - either higher or lower. SDDS of course is not available for the home, but I understand it uses ATRAC encoding, similar to MiniDisc.

This causes me to wonder: Should any of us really be upset that not every disc has lossless? We don't get lossless in the theater, and in general we probably get better audio quality from our lossy encodes than we do from the theater encodes, and thats without taking into consideration cheaper home sound systems or poorly configured cinema systems.

What has your experience with comparing all these formats to the masters shown you? Are the lossy encodes used for home better than those at the theater? Does it depend on which format we're comparing (cinema DD vs DTS vs SDDS vs the home DD and DTS etc) ?
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post #2616 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 05:04 AM
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To HD-DVD insiders:
On a couple of the HD-Scape HD-DVDs, sometimes after playing the video then going back to the main menu, I loose the red highlight bar that says what menu option you are currently on. Is this something I need a firmware update for - has one been done for this? (I currently have a Toshiba HD-E1 with no firmware updates).

What bitrate are the HD-Scape titles using - the maximum?

Will we ever see titles where compression artefacts are pretty much invisible and still give a very sharp and clear picture?

Currently compression codecs compress in 2d - will we ever have compression codecs that compress in 3d? I'm NOT necessarily talking about for 3d movies, I'm talking about achieving greater efficiency in encoding current programmes by using less bitrate to store video. eg. imagine a camera moving forward/back in the z axis - wouldn't this be easier to encode by approximating where things were in x,y,z space (I know it would probably take longer to encode but it should take less bits and may even give you more '3d' viewing options even though the original video was 2d)?
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post #2617 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

Sean,
Have you confirmed with Matsushita that they are not able to produce BD50 discs?

I have not confirmed this, nor can I state that only SONY are producing BD50s. What I can state is that none of the usual suspects are producing these discs in this country. There are a number of reasons why, not least of which is yield problems - making these lines very expensive to operate.

Do I expect these issues to be resolved? Probably. But that may take some time and few replicators want to spend the capital right now.

- Owen
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post #2618 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Oh, there are people 10X smarter than us in breaking a copy protection system. Trust me, they don't need our help one bit. We are often tempted to go and hire these people, they are that good.

My posts sends a different signal. It says that we understand the bounds of PC copy protection systems exceptionally well, having had to defend ours for 8 years now. Indeed, we are unique in having such deep understanding of what you can defend against, and what you can't. And what an incredible effort it takes to have a DRM system that stays more robust, than breached. All of this tells us that BD+ has little chance of fulfilling its dreams in practice. Anyone who bets against the above hackers, better not gamble in Vegas .

I think this is probably the most candid and realistic statement I have ever seen from any executive involved in strong DRM.

Are there any insiders here willing to challenge it?

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post #2619 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

http://blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

http://www.emedialive.com/articles/r...leid=11425#ixl

My thanks to the members who have provided the following links for disc statistics, replication info an more.

I cannot verify the accuracy of the information, but these links address many of the recent posted questions (some of which have been deleted)

Doing a whois search on hddvdstats and blu-raystats I see both as being run by the same person/place. I have attempted to contact the owner to point out some inaccuracies that I have found but no one has responded it so far.
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post #2620 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 06:58 AM
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Quick question for any Microsoft Insider (and I apologise if this has already been asked or is completely irrelavent)
I use my Xbox 360 with HD DVD drive on a 22" LCD TV in my bedroom, which has a resolution of 1400 x 900 (16:10) and I use the VGA connection. I was wondering if you could tell me if there is likely to be a Xbox 360 update that will give the option of this resolution?
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post #2621 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 07:21 AM
 
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This is a question for Microsoft guys.

I've been developing web sites and interactive promos for movies and studios for a while now (F4, F&F Tokyo Drift, X-Men, 300 etc) and I"m very interested in creating a business where i would offer highly interactive and creative experiences for HD DVD titles studios are releasing. Something you can call outsourcing for cool interactive HD DVD features that communicate with servers and use HDi to the fullest.

Now, my concerns are the actual limitations in animations and interactivity that I've grown acustomed too with Adobe Flash, Actionscript and video clips with alpha channels and similar. I am sure you understand what I mean. I really want to push HD DVD experience. I am very impressed with the possibilities and what 300 HD DVD turned out to be, but personally I think we can create mindblowing experiences, at least I'm certain that I can, however I need to know where my possibilities end.

I'm at zero point here. I am trying to get completely into understanding how much freedom do I really have when compared to the tools I"ve built sites with. I guess the primary question here is how much power HD DVD players have in order to execute all the interactive code that might be similar to these animations and interactivity similar to Flash? Of course as of now, when I build a huge Flash site, I develop in external modules that get loaded in as the user experiences the site, however I find the limitations with CPU processing power, so I'm assuming that I would have - some - limitations there.

I know you might've answered here and there about what to read about these things, but I would really ask you to point me into MSDN documentation or any other HDi startup docs that will help me get into serious HDi development. I would also appreciate any links or contact information about pricing or licensing that would allow me to become a real HDi developer as it would give me a better status with the studios.

I would also like to ask if Microsoft's new Silverlight and Expressions Studio very similar to the whole Visual Studio IDE will support HDi development in any way?

I'm interested in this as I'm trying to get up to speed with Silverlight as well considering that it handles hi-def video much better then anything else on the market (I saw the new MLB.tv demo and was very impressed) as it also offers pretty much the same level of interactivity as Flash and more. This got me thinking on not only that we can serve PiP but actually build gadgets-like surrounding like the guys did with MLB.tv. Tell me if I would be possible to execute something like this as well.

Basically what I'm asking is whether or not I will be able to use the new Expression Studio environment for the coding and developing interactivity, then somehow import this in the HD DVD developing environment and connect everything before I publish the master disk for replication or demo.

I would really appreciate your help, any answers or advices you might have.

Thanks!
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post #2622 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Doing a whois search on hddvdstats and blu-raystats I see both as being run by the same person/place. I have attempted to contact the owner to point out some inaccuracies that I have found but no one has responded it so far.

The site is run by forum member Phloyd - just PM him if you see any inaccuracies.
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post #2623 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

The site is run by forum member Phloyd - just PM him if you see any inaccuracies.

Plus I believe I remember reading a post from him saying he had to be away for awhile but that he would address needed corrections when he's back. I think the site(s) had an email address to send any info on needed corrections.
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post #2624 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny_N View Post

There's plenty of older people who don't have PC's or home networks. Do you think that they prefer to spend extra cash to buy additional hardware with which they can enjoy those soundtracks or will they prefer just putting the discs in their player and enjoy those soundtracks for just the price of the disc?

I gave you the example of adding storage to an existing machine. A person not comfortable with that scenario, can buy a new HD DVD player with built-in storage. Many such people have PVR/DVR type systems for time shifting with built-in storage. And many DVD recorders have built-in hard disks.

In addition, buy using a simple USB thumb drive, you can add storage to any HD DVD player with such a connection. Most everyone is familiar with that concept. And these cost nothing in grand scheme of things - certainly far less than the cost differential between BD and HD DVD players.

But all of this is secondary as your argument is incorrect anyway . I am not talking about taking the primary language away from the disc. You can have a Swedish track in DD+ at 448kbs and have it not matter in the total picture (bandwidth of storage). The issue is, should that track be in lossless 24-bit? If so, would all of you who don't speak Swedish, want to lose 6 mbit/sec of your much talked about bandwidth when you watch the movie in US? And would the older person not familiar with technology, demand to hear Danish in lossless audio? I think the answer to both has to be yes.

Here is really the problem with BDA's claims here. They have to define a very narrow scenario where what they have matters. With capacity, we can go 4+ hours of fanstic video. So they have to paint a scenario where you need 6 hours, but not more. Because they run out of space. On bandwidth, they can claim that people need more lossless audio. But as soon as they put two of them in there, they reach the same bandwidth as HD DVD and then have to claim that you don't need more than that. Which of course, doesn't work. Either they can do 26 lossless languages which is as many languages as we provide in Windows, or quit making a big deal out of it and support digital distribution which is the absolute proper solution. We do this for Windows today for less used languages beyond 26.

And keep in mind that all of these corner cases are supposed to justify a manufacturing process which is still quite immature where other replicators here say they still don't know of anyone who can make the BD-50 discs, 8 years after invention. And player OPUs (pick ups) which are much more expensive than HD DVD. So if we are worried about cost, we have to worry about these costs just the same.

Finally, as far as I know, people living in other countries that care a ton about audio fidelity, want to and will listen to the track in original language. The typically (not always) shun the dubbed tracks as such a track by definition is not lossless but has gone through the equiv. of human copy machine .

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post #2625 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 08:50 AM
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...Amir, shouldn't we all just get along and learn English?

(sorry, been watching Dobbs, and it's affecting my good ol' Canadian liberalism...)

I had mentioned some time ago the apparent uselessness of the USB ports on my A1, screaming for utilization of, say, USB keys to be able to store "offline" some downloaded content. Is there anything you can point to that actually is in the pipeline to incorporate this capacity into forthcoming titles?

ps: Actual quote: "If the King's English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" - "Ma" Ferguson, 1st Female Governor of Texas

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post #2626 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

A question to paidgeek & FilmMixer:

Are movie masters usually done in 48khz or 96khz? If many movie masters are available in 96khz, what is your opinion about using 96khz on Blu-Ray / HD DVD?

Thank you!

(Amir has kindly already posted his opinion on 96khz earlier. But I'd like to hear paidgeek's and FilmMixer's opinion on this, too. Thanks to all the Insiders in this *great* thread!)


Just let me say thanks for what Sony is doing audio wise with the recent titles. I like you going to 20bit+. And I like you not using DialNorm.


Typically 48k 24bit sampling is used these days. Higher sample rates can allow either higher frequency response or reduced filter distortion, but the cost of doubling the data rate is severe. Improving sample accuracy from 16 bit to 24 bit is a better way to improve sound quality.

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #2627 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

Typically 48k 24bit sampling is used these days. Higher sample rates can allow either higher frequency response or reduced filter distortion, but the cost of doubling the data rate is severe.

Is it that doubling the cost of storage is onerous, or are there other increased costs as well?
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post #2628 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Is it that doubling the cost of storage is onerous, or are there other increased costs as well?

The cost of storage is one component, but the cost of having a 96K support in the entire mixing chain is far worse.

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #2629 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

The cost of storage is one component, but the cost of having a 96K support in the entire mixing chain is far worse.

Oh, so that you all don't have to spend a few dollars buying new editing equipment, we all have to settle for good enough, stinking, low-res, HD-lite, audio that is 48Khz? I mean, isn't all music that is worth anything mixed at 88.2 or 96Khz? How can you possibly deprive us from what I may or may not be able to hear when it comes to a movie?



So what you are saying is that when it comes to movies, we should settle for lower standards than what is used for audio. Similar sensibility to what I have been trying to say for quite some time..

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post #2630 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

The cost of storage is one component, but the cost of having a 96K support in the entire mixing chain is far worse.

Thanks, but of course.

As with A/V gear and other CE products, is the price of "technology" falling and, if so, is it only a matter of time before the chain will be 96k? Or is the consensus that 48KHz/24-bit is all we'll ever need?

I *do* remember someone saying all we'll ever need is 64k of system RAM.
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post #2631 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonto81 View Post

Quick question for any Microsoft Insider (and I apologise if this has already been asked or is completely irrelavent)
I use my Xbox 360 with HD DVD drive on a 22" LCD TV in my bedroom, which has a resolution of 1400 x 900 (16:10) and I use the VGA connection. I was wondering if you could tell me if there is likely to be a Xbox 360 update that will give the option of this resolution?

I can't tell if it is likely or not. I can tell you that I keep pushing for this feature.

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post #2632 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I can't tell if it is likely or not. I can tell you that I keep pushing for this feature.

Thank you both for your response to my first ever post here and of course answering my query
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post #2633 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Oh, so that you all don't have to spend a few dollars buying new editing equipment, we all have to settle for “good enough”, stinking, low-res, HD-lite, audio that is 48Khz? I mean, isn't all music that is worth anything mixed at 88.2 or 96Khz? How can you possibly deprive us from what I may or may not be able to hear when it comes to a movie?



So what you are saying is that when it comes to movies, we should settle for lower standards than what is used for audio. Similar sensibility to what I have been trying to say for quite some time…..

What are you trying to say? The onerous cost of ONE TITLE production is similar to HIGHER STANDARDS ALREADY IN PLACED ACROSS THE ENTIRE PLATFORM( higher bandwidth and capacity)? I hope you are not suggesting that. They are not analogous for obvious reasons.

Does price really matter if you are buying a ticket on the Titanic?
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post #2634 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:45 AM
 
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Can any of the insiders provide us with the information of the most current number of market share and number of catalog titles held by studios. I am pretty sure this is public information and that all of you most likely had the opportunity to see it. I would like to know what market share and number of catalog titles look like for the following studios:

- Sony Pictures (including Columbia Pictures/Tri-Star)
- MGM
- Disney
- Buena Vista
- 20th Century Fox
- Paramount
- Dreamworks
- Warner Bros
- Universal
- Lionsgate
- Weinstein


Thanks.
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post #2635 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyHD View Post

What are you trying to say? The onerous cost of ONE TITLE production is similar to higher STANDARDS ALREADY IN PLACED ACROSS THE ENTIRE PLATFORM( higher bandwidth and capacity)? I hope you are not suggesting that. They are not analogous for obvious reasons.

I am saying he just proved my earlier point. That BDA wants to make a case for a bit more than HD DVD but anything past that, gets them in trouble so then they have to defend that you don't need more than that little. Case in point: 96Khz. Folks talk about getting Goosebumps over audio. But those supposed bumps better come at 48khz. Because if they shoot up to 96khz, you lose the other lossless tracks due to doubling of bandwidth required (rivaling video!). So then they have to justify why you need just one lossless track. See where I am going?

The beauty of digital augmentation of optical is that we can provide you with 96Khz or even 192Khz audio as something you download if you really cared about. For the rest of the world and for what is on disc, I agree with Paid that 48khz is fine. It is better than the silly 44.1khz of CD yet it is not too high to be limiting from distribution point of view. My wish is that Paid applies such engineering sensibility across all of his arguments, as I have been trying to do.

While I am typing this, let me say that for anything musical, I want full fidelity lossless audio, period. FilmMixer talked about Amadeus. This is one of my all time favorite movies. If such a movie doesn't have lossless audio of the highest fidelity, I would be royally upset. For content where the audio is the central score, and musical, I am more hardcore than just about anyone here.

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post #2636 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 10:05 AM
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While I am typing this, let me say that for anything musical, I want full fidelity lossless audio, period. FilmMixer talked about Amadeus. This is one of my all time favorite movies. If such a movie doesn’t have lossless audio of the highest fidelity, I would be royally upset.

What compromises would need to be made for an HD-DVD version of Amadeus to have a lossless audio track and still have the best possible PQ?

But wait - if I remember correctly from other insiders, only recently have movies been mastered at 24 bit, so it shouldn't be too difficult to have a 48 KHz 16 bit audio track. And the movie was probably mixed in stereo. So I guess it should be easy to do and maintain >20 mbit video bitrates, right?

Anyways, I'm a fan of the movie too - despite the horrible historical inaccuracies.
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post #2637 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

What compromises would need to be made for an HD-DVD version of Amadeus to have a lossless audio track and still have the best possible PQ?

None that I can think of. Video should be easy to encode as there are a lot of talking heads and such.

Quote:


But wait - if I remember correctly from other insiders, only recently have movies been mastered at 24 bit, so it shouldn't be too difficult to have a 48 KHz 16 bit audio track. And the movie was probably mixed in stereo. So I guess it should be easy to do and maintain >20 mbit video bitrates, right?

I have nice soundtracks on CD so good digital sources exist for it at least up to that resolution.

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Anyways, I'm a fan of the movie too - despite the horrible historical inaccuracies.


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post #2638 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 10:12 AM
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For Paidgeek:

It appears that the Spider Man BD box set is going to come on BD-50 and BD-25 discs, according to the specs at Highdefdigest.com, with SM1 and SM2 having TrueHD tracks instead of PCM. I saw your explanation in one of the threads that TrueHD was used on SM1 & because it works better with seamless branching. However, people are confused about whether SM1 & 2 are coming on BD-25 discs and this is also a reason for TrueHD, or if the BD-25 is the extras disc. Can you clarify this?

Thanks!

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post #2639 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 10:16 AM
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"Sorry boss. Was taking a bathroom break."


Not at all. While we have some patents in these formats, I am talking about the big guys who have the potential to earn back substantial revenues. We do not fall in that category because as you can imagine, we have more patents on software/systems than how you make optical media .

In general, the heavy hitters are Toshiba, Matsushita, Philips, Sony. The next ier is probably Samsung/LG.


No, and no. Our main contribution to the format is the production of HD DVD drive for 360, providing HDi subsystem, and answering your questions .

Bathroom breaks are allowed.

Based on the context of your original quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

A top title can cost up to $500K to produce if it has nice interactivity and bunch of extras. Let's assume that a studio wants to come close to what Universal has done in releasing > 100 titles in a year and half. That puts the up front cost at $50M right there! Who should pay for this? One could make the argument that studios should because they will reap the benefits later. Others say no, the people with the patents should.

I would think that Toshiba and Microsoft (due to HDi) would have the biggest stake in the Paramount decision than any of the patent holders that you listed (Toshiba, Matsushita, Philips, Sony).

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If so, are you assuming these costs for Paramount? Universal? Warner?

No, and no. Our main contribution to the format is the production of HD DVD drive for 360, providing HDi subsystem, and answering your questions .

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you meant to reply No, no and no???

I'm not going to beat a dead horse but I will say that in regards to retail, companies like Sony and Panasonic follow the same rules as Toshiba in regard to items like endcaps.

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post #2640 of 3651 Old 08-23-2007, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Amir you are arrogant, deemed self-imporant "according to your sig"

Thanks for the info

it is comments like this and some calls for help that might make a recently retired mod come back to help here for a while

If that happens, the rules of this Insiders Thread will be relaxed to allow some non hostile, short discussions to allow non-insiders some leeway to chime in and allow for some back and forth with Insiders: rather than just Q&A

Stay tuned

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