My ONE and ONLY Reason for Favoring HD DVD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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The avenue for using Blu-Ray's superior storage capacity for personal distribution of HD camcorder footage may be a dead end.

According to SS Scott, moderator at the Roxio forums, what's happening behind the scenes may not be good for us.

There are two types of BD authoring, BDAV (no menus, no interactive) and BDMV (interactive with menus).

BDAV authoring was intended for users to burn their personal HD content like camcorder footage onto BD-R/RE media, and the interactive format BDMV was Hollywood's format intended for BD-ROM. But outside of Hollywood people want to author menus and interactivity just like on DVD, which requires the BDMV structure.

The problem is that an illegal ripped copy from BD-ROM looks the same as legal BDMV authored for BD-R/RE, so under studio pressure, namely Sony, the simple fix is to disable BD-R/RE playback. While some first generation Sony Blu-Ray players added BD-R/RE playback in a firmware update, the newest 2nd generation Sony player the BDP-S300 has eliminated it. Speculation is that future firmware updates may retroactively disable BD-R/RE playback on other players, even the PS3.

It is speculation yes, but it comes from a good source.

Needless to say, it's confusing and disappointing, and puts Blu-Ray authoring onto BD-R/RE media into a state of uncertainty.

http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=25294
http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=23713

I honestly have a problem with Blu-Ray on this point. I'm saying nothing to champion the HD DVD cause, other than to express the reason for my current lean in that direction centers on this issue alone. Blu-Ray is gaining momentum. As your collective voices call out for the death of HD DVD, I beseech the Blu-Ray supporters to insist upon a writable format, lest there be a time you want one and don't have it.
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post #2 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:06 PM
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Try asking this in the insiders thread to see if you get a response.
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post #3 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:10 PM
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If thats true, that would be pretty lame.

Even so, you know the fabled Chinese players will play BD-R at the very least.
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post #4 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:16 PM
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Try asking in the insiders forum. Be very specific.

I am a little bemused that you say this is the reason you like HD-DVD better.

HD-DVD has almost zero burners available and almost zero media at all.

Even with the restriction that you are talking about (which at this point is just a rumor!) Blu-ray authoring capabilities and burners are much more prevalent, supported, and robust.

So why on earth is this a reason for you to "favor" HD-DVD??

I mean Hitachi has just released the first HD camcorder that records DIRECTLY to Blu-ray disk. Can you point to a comparable HD-DVD camcorder product? How many companies make blank HD-DVDs that are re-writable? How many companies make HD-DVD burners?

Blu-ray wins this area hands down, so your thread is a little strange.
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post #5 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:28 PM
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Here are some products that I found in just a few seconds, there are more models and blank media available at other retailers.





They did not have a single blank HD-DVD disc for sale, nor did they have a single HD-DVD burner for sale.

And those BD-50s that were called "science fiction" here? You can buy one and make your own BD-50 at home!

This is way beyond what HD-DVD is currently offering (which is basically nothing).
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post #6 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Try asking in the insiders forum. Be very specific.

I am a little bemused that you say this is the reason you like HD-DVD better.

HD-DVD has almost zero burners available and almost zero media at all.

Even with the restriction that you are talking about (which at this point is just a rumor!) Blu-ray authoring capabilities and burners are much more prevalent, supported, and robust.

So why on earth is this a reason for you to "favor" HD-DVD??

I mean Hitachi has just released the first HD camcorder that records DIRECTLY to Blu-ray disk. Can you point to a comparable HD-DVD camcorder product? How many companies make blank HD-DVDs that are re-writable? How many companies make HD-DVD burners?

Blu-ray wins this area hands down, so your thread is a little strange.

Thanks for the reply.

1.) Anyone can very easily author compliant HD DVD video with interactive menus onto standard DVD5/9 media with any current DVD burner. You don't need HD DVD burners or media. Your project merely needs to fit onto the disk capacity. This is up to about 43 minutes of 25 mbps 1080i60 HDV camcorder video with AC3 5.1 audio on a dual layer DVD disk. These disks play in all HD DVD players.

2.) As for the Hitachi Blu-Ray camcorder, would you not agree that it would be an understatement if the disk it produces do not play from a Blu-Ray player? That's exactly what is at issue, potentially. If to play a BD-R/RE disk from it, you had to connect the camcorder's HDMI cord to the HDTV, it would be no different than a tape based system.
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post #7 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:41 PM
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Now, I'm a fan of Blu-ray as well, but let's not diminish Tom's point, which is this: it appears from what he has been told from decent sources (as he's detailed) that advanced content (like menus, perhaps BD-J, etc.) is being withheld from Blu-ray writables due to copy protection concerns, and this is (to put it mildly) annoying. The good bit about DRM so far-- makes it palatable, to me anyway-- is that it has not put limits on the content you yourself may generate and publish. It may act as a barrier to using others' content, but it has not acted as a barrier to creating your own.

If this rumor is true (and it sounds vaguely plausible), this is the first step toward that situation. While conspiracy theorists will certainly assume that it's being done so that the Establishment can retain its monopoly on content publication, I subscribe to the maxim, "Never assume a conspiracy when human stupidity is available as an alternate explanation."

I think this is the case here: DRM folks are destroying a very cool capability in an effort to lock down their own content, and the hardware guys aren't pushing back hard enough. Very sad. Bringing this up in the insider thread is actually a good idea, as the folks there may at least be able to influence the process.

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #8 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

Thanks for the reply.

1.) Anyone can very easily author compliant HD DVD video with interactive menus onto standard DVD5/9 media with any current DVD burner. You don't need HD DVD burners or media. Your project merely needs to fit onto the disk capacity. This is up to about 43 minutes of 25 mbps 1080i60 HDV camcorder video with AC3 5.1 audio on a dual layer DVD disk.

2.) As for the Hitachi Blu-Ray camcorder, would you not agree that it would be an understatement if the disk it produces do not play from a Blu-Ray player? That's exactly what is at issue, potentially. If to play a BD-R/RE disk from it, you had to connect the camcorder's HDMI cord to the HDTV, it would be no different than a tape based system.

1) Why would anyone use DVD5s or DVD9s for all their full HD content? Would be very inefficient. I could collect tons of home videos onto a BD-50. BD is a much better option. 1 disc > 6-13 discs for the same amount of content.

2) I agree with you on this. Would be terrible if that happens. My guess is there will be a middle of the road solution allowing simple menus etc. in BDMV format, but maybe not full java to prtect studios. Or if BD+ goes really well then maybe we'll get full java BDMVs. Its still too early to say.

I'll look for an answer in the insider's thread. Also try posting the question in the insider's thread at www.blu-ray.com My guess is you'll get an answer much quicker there.
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post #9 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael View Post

Now, I'm a fan of Blu-ray as well, but let's not diminish Tom's point, which is this: it appears from what he has been told from decent sources (as he's detailed) that advanced content (like menus, perhaps BD-J, etc.) is being withheld from Blu-ray writables due to copy protection concerns, and this is (to put it mildly) annoying.

Almost, not exactly...It's not advanced content that is being witheld. There's no way to do that. That genie is already out of the bottle. But because advanced content that you create legally can't be distinguished from advanced content illegally ripped, (both are BDMV file structures) the simple (and onerous fix) can be to simply disable playback of the writable media itself. Do you see?
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post #10 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

1) Why would anyone use DVD5s or DVD9s for all their full HD content? Would be very inefficient. I could collect tons of home videos onto a BD-50. BD is a much better option. 1 disc > 6-13 discs for the same amount of content.

2) I agree with you on this. Would be terrible if that happens. My guess is there will be a middle of the road solution allowing simple menus etc. in BDMV format, but maybe not full java to prtect studios. Or if BD+ goes really well then maybe we'll get full java BDMVs. Its still too early to say.

I'll look for an answer in the insider's thread. Also try posting the question in the insider's thread at www.blu-ray.com My guess is you'll get an answer much quicker there.

I'm not debating you on point 1.) I would definitely prefer higher capacity. Blu-Ray clearly ahead, just pointing out that the HD DVD trade off for its limited capacity is functionality and compatibility, right now.

On point 2.) middle of the road possible solution, see point one. The HD DVD is here and now, for Blu-Ray as you say, "it's still too early say" but then not too early to have hardware and software already to market? See the paradox? That's very frustrating for me because on one hand, you have a limited but still perfectly working solution that others could potentially be calling for the death of the HD DVD format because there is expensive hardware, software and media available to buy from Blu-Ray, yet no assurance of compatibility?
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post #11 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

I'm not debating you on point 1.) I would definitely prefer higher capacity. Blu-Ray clearly ahead, just pointing out that the HD DVD trade off for its limited capacity is functionality and compatibility, right now.

On point 2.) middle of the road possible solution, see point one. The HD DVD is here and now, for Blu-Ray as you say, "it's still too early say" but then not too early to have hardware and software already to market? See the paradox? That's very frustrating for me because on one hand, you have a limited but still perfectly working solution that others could potentially be calling for the death of the HD DVD format because there is expensive hardware, software and media available to buy from Blu-Ray, yet no assurance of compatibility?


Hmm...

I'll clarify my comments. It is a 100% safe bet that you will ALWAYS be able to author your own BDs to play on any BD player.

It is NOT a 100% safe bet that you will have access to every single feature that major studio will have.

Are you trying to make commercial content and sell it, with extensive interactive features, menus, games etc?? If so hook up with a authorized company and contract for replication etc.

Or are you making home videos and recording stuff off of TV for personal use? If this is the case you should have nothing to worry about.
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post #12 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Hmm...

I'll clarify my comments. It is a 100% safe bet that you will ALWAYS be able to author your own BDs to play on any BD player.

It is NOT a 100% safe bet that you will have access to every single feature that major studio will have.

Are you saying it's 100% safe bet that a minimalist BD-R/RE will play on a Sony BDP-S300 player? Have you tried this? My understanding is that you cannot play this type of disk, period.

There are two possibilities:

1.) The drive physically can't read the dye layer.
2.) It can physically read it but playback is disabled.

Which is it? Does it even matter? One point is clear. You can definitely burn Blu-Ray disks. The problem is, can you play them back? I would encourage you to visit those links I posted to the Roxio forum and evaluate earnestly the compatibility of BD writable media.

What I'm honestly calling for, is the Blu-Ray supporters to recognize this as fundamental and insist on a writable format that is functional and compatible across all players. I will eagerly adopt Blu-Ray if that happens. But right now, I'm cursing it because we are so engaged in the war, it's a major point of significance that until you've won it, you may not realize or care that you don't have it.
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post #13 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:22 PM
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It's always a dangerous thing to say I told you so. Certainly it gives me no enjoyment in this case, because it will negatively affect so many people.

But, if true, this was inevitable - as Sony has always been overly aggressive in copy protection, in my opinion, to the point where can invade your enjoyment of products you have purchased.

A quote from the post "His latest Blu-ray player has no BD-R BDMV playback becasue they were forced to remove it.
In what looks like a new push by the studios, they are very unhappy about it (and so am I).
He also said that a new Panasonic model out shortly with HD audio will most likely also have the feature removed.
Guess which company is making this happen? SONY!!"


I covered a few months back that Sony and Samsung were possibly pulling back on BDMV playback, even in the PS3, because of copyright protection desires. But this seems to indicate it has been removed from all new machines.

That means that if you want to edit your own BD videos and menus, DVD style, you will not be allowed to play them back on Bluray players.

Well done again, BDA! Scrore another one against consumers...
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post #14 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

Thanks for the reply.

2.) As for the Hitachi Blu-Ray camcorder, would you not agree that it would be an understatement if the disk it produces do not play from a Blu-Ray player? That's exactly what is at issue, potentially. If to play a BD-R/RE disk from it, you had to connect the camcorder's HDMI cord to the HDTV, it would be no different than a tape based system.

Well according to your first post BD camcorders burn BDAV filestructure which has no restrictions for playback on any burnable media.

I think you're jumping the gun, personally.
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post #15 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

Well according to your first post BD camcorders burn BDAV filestructure which has no restrictions for playback on any burnable media.

Unless you want to edit the video on those into your own BD discs with menus... then it's BDMV.
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post #16 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

Well according to your first post BD camcorders burn BDAV filestructure which has no restrictions for playback on any burnable media.

I think you're jumping the gun, personally.

Thanks wreckshop. I hope you're right that I'm jumping the gun. But while BDAV may have no restrictions for playback on any burnable media, it nevertheless becomes a casualty of the mechanism for switching off BDMV, which is to disable BD-R/RE media playback. THAT's the crux of it. No BD-R/RE playback, no BDAV either.
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post #17 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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In reading again the Roxio links, what moderator SS Scott seems to be saying is that BDMV can be switched off for BD-R/RE, which holds open the hope that BDAV playback can exist on BD-R/RE as krinkle and wreckshop are saying. Personally, I think that's reasonable. But what remains unacceptable is some players not supporting the writable media, like the Sony BDP-S300.
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post #18 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

THAT's the crux of it. No BD-R/RE playback, no BDAV either.

I assume they would disable BDMV from BD-R/RE, but still allow BDAV.

I think it would be impossible that they would disable BDAV also, as that would mean many many lawsuits, since they indicated that BDAV discs from these cameras could be played in Bluray players. They would be making the camera makers liable also.

However, prohibiting these players from playing BDMV from BD-R/RE is just as bad - and it's looking as tho that is the most likely scenario...

I have asked the question in the insider's thread - so hopefully will get some replies tomorrow...
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post #19 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks rdjam. Is it 100% that all Blu-Ray players will playback BDAV on BD-R/RE? I found several players not stating support for the BD-R/RE media itself.
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post #20 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

Thanks rdjam. Is it 100% that all Blu-Ray players will playback BDAV on BD-R/RE? I found several players not stating support for the BD-R/RE media itself.

Nothing's for sure with Bluray...

Oddly, all HD DVD players seem to be able to playback recordable media. The copy protection mentality on BD seems all over the shop.

In my opinion, if they had thought about the scenario of burned copies of movies from the beginning, they could have thought of a much better way to handle this without screwing over their users. But my guess is that they never expected to have to deal with pirate copies, and never planned for it. Now, it seems they are trying to deal with the problem after the fact by dropping the capabilities for the players completely.

Yet more insightful advance planning by the format...
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post #21 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

Thanks rdjam. Is it 100% that all Blu-Ray players will playback BDAV on BD-R/RE? I found several players not stating support for the BD-R/RE media itself.


This is exactly what I already referred to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Hmm...

I'll clarify my comments. It is a 100% safe bet that you will ALWAYS be able to author your own BDs to play on any BD player.

It is NOT a 100% safe bet that you will have access to every single feature that major studio will have.

Are you trying to make commercial content and sell it, with extensive interactive features, menus, games etc?? If so hook up with a authorized company and contract for replication etc. THIS IS BDMV

Or are you making home videos and recording stuff off of TV for personal use? If this is the case you should have nothing to worry about. THIS IS BDAV

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post #22 of 153 Old 08-05-2007, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

Thanks rdjam. Is it 100% that all Blu-Ray players will playback BDAV on BD-R/RE? I found several players not stating support for the BD-R/RE media itself.

This is exactly what I already referred to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

Hmm...

I'll clarify my comments. It is a 100% safe bet that you will ALWAYS be able to author your own BDs to play on any BD player.

It is NOT a 100% safe bet that you will have access to every single feature that major studio will have.

Are you trying to make commercial content and sell it, with extensive interactive features, menus, games etc?? If so hook up with a authorized company and contract for replication etc. THIS IS BDMV

I think you misunderstood his question, as you answered a different one. His question was not whether one would be able to *author* BDAV titles - but rather, whether one would be guaranteed to be able to *playback* BDAV on BD-R/RE recordable discs.

Right now, there seem to be players that don't play BD-R/RE discs of ANY persuasion - such as the new Sony 300.

But apart from that, it's starting to look, from these reports, like Sony is forcing the other manufacturers not to allow *ANY* playback of BDMV on recordable discs.

And BDAV is NOT the only choice for your home videos. If you make *anything* on BD that you want a simple menu structure on, then you need to use BDMV. So BDMV is *not* only for pre-recorded movies.
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post #23 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 01:06 AM
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Maybe someone realised the idea of identifying a pressed disc as a BD-RE could be a working method to bypass the mandatory ROM marking/AACS, and this BDMV block is an attempt to patch the hole?

International HDDVD Screenshot Archive (Full 1080p Images): www.hdmovies.co.nz
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post #24 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 01:39 AM
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I think that any attempt by any Blu-ray manufacturer to retroactively rescind functionality on a player that is already sold would leave them wide open for a class action lawsuit that they would lose handily. Since no manufacturer would want to be in that situation, I think the likelihood of any Blu-ray player losing the ability to play BD-R/Es is effectively zero.
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post #25 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 01:57 AM
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I can make a menu in dvditPRO HD. and burn it on bluray, i had already done this with my batman experiment. i have burned a TDK BD-RE ( orange cover ) and it worked fine in my PS3 and it worked fine on my boss his panasonic bluray player.

the only downfall is, is that i can only use mpeg-2 and not VC-1 or AVC.

so if you want to make a HD movie from HIdef cams or whatever and want to have a simple menu use DVDit PRo HD.
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post #26 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

1) Why would anyone use DVD5s or DVD9s for all their full HD content? Would be very inefficient. I could collect tons of home videos onto a BD-50. BD is a much better option. 1 disc > 6-13 discs for the same amount of content.

Video professionals would probably like to use DVD5 and DVD9 for full HD content. A typical industrial video project is going to be well within the 45 minute range that can fit on a DVD9. Nevermind using advanced codecs like VC1 and AVC or bumping down to 720P to squeeze even more content on the disc (assuming one isn't already shooting on a 720P cam to begin with). Weddings are perfect too, as you can create a nice 2 disc set featuring the wedding and reception on individual discs. Would one disc be better there? Sure. But right now a videographer can produce HD content on $1 dics using $35 burners and still make the clients happy.

Home videos benefit from the cost situation as well of course. Yes, you can put a LOT more boring home video into a compilation on a $15 BD disc using a $450 burner. But most folks would probably be perfectly happy to put 45 minutes of Uncle Joe's fishing trip on the $1 disc with that $35 burner.

Obviously as prices on BD and/or HD DVD burners and media drops there will be a tipping point where users feel they're receiving benefits appropriate to the cost. But at today's price points, DVD9 provides a terrific medium for HD delivery. In fact, as long as DVD9 is priced substantially less than HDDVD15 or BD25, it'll stick around.
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post #27 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by krinkle View Post

1) Why would anyone use DVD5s or DVD9s for all their full HD content? Would be very inefficient. I could collect tons of home videos onto a BD-50. BD is a much better option. 1 disc > 6-13 discs for the same amount of content.

You could collect tons of video on a BD-50 but without a proper menu, you would be back to the days of VHS, where it would take you 5 minutes of going backwards and forwards till you found the correct scene you want to watch.
The whole point of optical media is the ability to go direct to where you want, and removing the menu system defeats that objective.
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post #28 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 04:57 AM
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Tom, I'm a Blu-ray supporter, but unfortunately authoring software for BD has been very slow. I'm a Mac guy and have been anxiously waiting for Final Cut Studio to introduce BD authoring into its DVD Studio Pro. Affordable HD cameras are becoming common now, but the means to store, edit and eventually author HD media is severely falling behind the hardware.

It would be extremely foolish for the BDA to cripple authoring capabilities for draconian DRM reasons. Creative professionals, independent filmmakers and small studios would storm the Bastille if that were the case. I bought into BD with the expectation of eventually using its increased storage capacity to store and deliver my finished HD videos (I shoot with the Canon XHA1 and hopefully later next year with the new Red camera).

I know Adobe Premier Pro CS3 has just introduced new software that makes it capable to author and deliver content on BD. I suspect Apple will introduce the next version of DVD Studio Pro (w/BD authoring) sometime later this year (hopefully with the release of Leopard). I guess where I am going with this is that I wouldn't be too concerned about not being able to eventually use BDMV for personal (and professional) usage.

ÂAfter victory, tighten your helmet strings.Â
Tokugawa Ieyasu
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post #29 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 04:58 AM
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El_Watcher. read what i said carefully.

you can put a simple menu on bluray with dvdproit HD. i tested it and it worked.

why dont people just read the complete thread. before replying?
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post #30 of 153 Old 08-06-2007, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Oddly, all HD DVD players seem to be able to playback recordable media.

You mean HD DVD recordable media? Have you tested this? By the way do you know where I can buy a standalone HD DVD burner? I've been looking for one ever since they were announced 2 years ago.

Also how much success have you had in making menus for your HD DVD-Rs? Thanks.
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