If Natures Journey turns out to be better on Blu-ray than HDDVD, would that be enough - Page 4 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: If Nature's Journey looks better on Blu-Ray, would you support change?
Yes I will support Blu-Ray more if this film shows that the Blu-Ray version is better 67 13.81%
I am a dual format supporter that prefers Blu-Ray already. 39 8.04%
I support both, prefer HD-DVD, Yes I will support Blu-Ray if the version is better 20 4.12%
I own neither, however if Blu-Ray is better than HD-DVD, then I would choose Blu-Ray 8 1.65%
Even if Blu-Ray is better, I don’t care and will only buy HD-DVD 80 16.49%
I hate Sony 57 11.75%
I don’t care one way or another what the results will be 98 20.21%
I don’t care about picture quality or audio quality. I will stick with standard DVD’s 2 0.41%
My response will be posted within the thread since you have not created a suitable option 26 5.36%
Spiderpig makes me laugh 88 18.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 485. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 07:30 AM
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This is a typical BD BS poll. We have gigabytes of A/B pictures that haven't shown any definitive advantage to one side or the other. Only in your dreams
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post #92 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 07:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lampert View Post

The issue from day one til' the end of time is not just about the extra space and bandwidth. I'm sure every HD DVD supporter would prefer to have the capacity and bandwidth of Blu-ray.

What is missing in every thread and post about this subject from day one til' the end of time is the CONTEXT of that additional space and capacity. Blu-ray supporters continue to think that the only issue is the technology while most HD DVD supporters feel the organizational paradigm is a very big part of it. HD DVD supporters do not feel that the practices exhibited by the BDA since the original launch, noise-filtered Samsung, huge hardware delays, the initlal "Click" BD50 fiasco, through the "1080p is better than 1080i" blurbs, chest-thumping antics at CVES2007, incomplete specs and outdated players, and endless PR drone, and the fact that HD DVD (other than specs) continues to have to set the standard that Blu-ray aspires and eventually reaches.... That Blu-ray and the BDA ... DO NOT DESERVE this victory. This behavior should NOT be rewarded.

And the fact the technological superiority of Blu-ray rarely translates into a tangible benefit, in combination with all the above cynical and anti-consumer behaviors means the HD DVD supporters do not want the BDA to control next-generation HDM.

This is what is NEVER discussed in these pointless threads about superiority.

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post #93 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 07:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

Well since most groups get to pick their own names I guess you can call 'them' whatever you want.



Have a good one.

I have a good one! . . . . . I want a bigger one!.
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post #94 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lampert View Post

The issue from day one til' the end of time is not just about the extra space and bandwidth. I'm sure every HD DVD supporter would prefer to have the capacity and bandwidth of Blu-ray.

What is missing in every thread and post about this subject from day one til' the end of time is the CONTEXT of that additional space and capacity. Blu-ray supporters continue to think that the only issue is the technology while most HD DVD supporters feel the organizational paradigm is a very big part of it. HD DVD supporters do not feel that the practices exhibited by the BDA since the original launch, noise-filtered Samsung, huge hardware delays, the initlal "Click" BD50 fiasco, through the "1080p is better than 1080i" blurbs, chest-thumping antics at CVES2007, incomplete specs and outdated players, and endless PR drone, and the fact that HD DVD (other than specs) continues to have to set the standard that Blu-ray aspires and eventually reaches.... That Blu-ray and the BDA ... DO NOT DESERVE this victory. This behavior should NOT be rewarded.

And the fact the technological superiority of Blu-ray rarely translates into a tangible benefit, in combination with all the above cynical and anti-consumer behaviors means the HD DVD supporters do not want the BDA to control next-generation HDM.

This is what is NEVER discussed in these pointless threads about superiority. HD DVD, as an organization and format, is utterly superior to the BDA and Blu-ray

Wow if your only criticisms of Blu Ray only go back to the first week of its launch (and earlier), the first disc released, and a the first player released, Blu ray is doing great!! Thanks for the synopsis! It emphasizes all the great strides Blu Ray has made in the last year!! Sony, being the favorite brand of America, has addressed all of your concerns in a quick manner - so get in the Blu game!!


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post #95 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 08:18 AM
 
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Wow if your only criticisms of Blu Ray only go back to the first week of its launch (and earlier), the first disc released, and a the first player released, Blu ray is doing great!! Thanks for the synopsis! It emphasizes all the great strides Blu Ray has made in the last year!! Sony, being the favorite brand of America, has addressed all of your concerns in a quick manner - so get in the Blu game!!

Hey, that was one my criticisms of Blu Ray as well. Don't pick up Hitch or the early Fifth Element My has the tide turned
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post #96 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 08:50 AM
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if your only criticisms of Blu Ray only go back to the first week of its launch

C'mon man. How was BD50 "Click" in the first week of the launch? How are the incomplete specs which still exist in the first week? CES2007?

Quote:


that was one my criticisms of Blu Ray as well. Don't pick up Hitch or the early Fifth Element

That again was not the point. It's the behavior of the organization. Listen, we get it. You see the better specs and the exclusive studios and nothing more need be said. Don't buy the initial launch of The Fifth Element and everything is great. I wish my vision was like that. It makes life so much simpler.
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post #97 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:00 AM
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I predict the Blu-ray fanbois will claim that the Blu-ray with its higher bit rate is better and the HD DVD fanbois will be saying there is no difference.

Me, I couldn't care less which one is better, 1 comparison is not conclusive proof that one is better over another. There are many things that factor into picture quality, bitrate being just one of them.
I also have no desire to own either of these discs, I've got better things to do with my money than to purchase a nature video that will probably never get watched.

Format Neutral
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post #98 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff Lampert View Post

C'mon man. How was BD50 "Click" in the first week of the launch? How are the incomplete specs which still exist in the first week? CES2007?



That again was not the point. It's the behavior of the organization. Listen, we get it. You see the better specs and the exclusive studios and nothing more need be said. Don't buy the initial launch of The Fifth Element and everything is great. I wish my vision was like that. It makes life so much simpler.

Nah, you should keep your rose tinted glasses on and continue your venomous diatribe against the evil Sony empire. Perhaps we can get another thread from you soon with new bullet points and all
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post #99 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:05 AM
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the evil Sony empire

It's not Sony. It's the BDA as a whole. They aren't evil. Just anti-consumer and very cynical in too many of their actions.
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post #100 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:05 AM
 
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Funny how no one addressed Jeff's points of:

Quote:


incomplete specs and outdated players, and endless PR drone

Those seem like important points to me.
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post #101 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lampert View Post

It's not Sony. It's the BDA as a whole. They aren't evil. Just anti-consumer and very cynical in too many of their actions.

Ah yes Sony and the BDA didn't meant to exclude the rest on the blu-ray side at least you don't fall into blu-ray equals just Sony crowd, Thank you! I'm glad for your sake you are keeping those blu-blockers on, much more convenient to see only what you want to see
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post #102 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:22 AM
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much more convenient to see only what you want to see

Maybe you're right. I don't see where HD DVD has acted in such an anti-consumer and cynical fashion. Region-free, much cheaper from the beginning, complete specs, high quality on day one, etc. etc. Well, the players have been glitchy on some titles, so I guess that's a demerit.
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post #103 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lampert View Post

Maybe you're right. I don't see where HD DVD has acted in such an anti-consumer and cynical fashion. Region-free, much cheaper from the beginning, high quality on day one, etc. etc.

HD DVD High quality from day Day 1?

First three software releases: Phantom, Last Samurai, Million Dollar Baby...all recorded at low audio level and all needed to be re-released.

HD-A1: HDMI blacker than black issues
HD A1: LFE analog levels faulty
HDMI to DVI issues that are only getting solved now (almost 2 years after release.


Yeah, HD DVD had a great openning track record...


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post #104 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:46 AM
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I have both formats and support both. I currently prefer hd-dvd due to the fact that it works and gives me a better experience than blu-ray. For the movies that I purchase, I've had better luck with hd-dvd and noticably fewer problems. I've had so many lockups with my BD-P1200, I'm ready to put a new label over the Samsung name and change it to MasterLock or something.

I think that we're going to have both formats co-existing.

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post #105 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:51 AM
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This single, particular title will have no bearing for me personally on format preference. And I suspect there will be little/no difference between the versions.

But I'll be very interested to see if BD actually does improve upon the HD DVD version.


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post #106 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

HD DVD High quality from day Day 1?

Higher quality than Blu-Ray had at launch
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post #107 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 10:54 AM
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incomplete specs and outdated players, and endless PR drone

By next year newer BD players will have superiour specs, right? It's unfortunate the earlier players will not be compatible with all features, but that's the early adopter tax you pay.
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post #108 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 11:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wreckshop View Post

By next year newer BD players will have superiour specs, right? It's unfortunate the earlier players will not be compatible with all features, but that's the early adopter tax you pay.

400,000 to 500,000 BD SAL player owners . . . .message from BDA:

" Tough nuggies guys . . . . oh and thanks for helping us get BD off the ground."

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post #109 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

400,000 to 500,000 BD SAL player owners . . . .message from BDA:

" Tough nuggies guys . . . . oh and thanks for helping us get BD off the ground."


They are welcome! I'm very pleased my player won't do HD PIP!


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post #110 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

400,000 to 500,000 BD SAL player owners . . . .message from BDA:

" Tough nuggies guys . . . . oh and thanks for helping us get BD off the ground."


400,00 to 500,000 HD SAL player owners ....message from BDA:

"Hello and welcome, glad you finally came around"
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post #111 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ezra View Post

This poll is moronic.

Where is the "Even if HD DVD is better I don't care and will continue to buy Blu-ray" and "I hate Microsoft"?

Which is why I selected spiderpig.

How do I get back the 5 IQ points I think I've lost?
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Jiffylush and thebland - Guys - I honestly just got vertigo!
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post #113 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 11:19 AM
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Jiffylush and thebland - I honestly just got vertigo!

I'd prefer Rear Window, but I digress.

I wish my comeback had been funnier, just couldn't come up with something quick
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post #114 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 11:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

I'd prefer Rear Window, but I digress.

I wish my comeback had been funnier, just couldn't come up with something quick

I appreciate that you couldn't! I would have either fainted . . . or puked!
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post #115 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 01:36 PM
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Java is a proven platform as is XML. Any programmer will gladly tell you which is more flexible/capable. Guess which it is. There is no speculation here.

LOL... you know not of what you speak. Java's a non factor. I do talk to programmers and no one sees a future for Java that I've spoken to. It's slow and doesn't quite deliviver on the promise of "write once read anywhere" It's a language the requires compiling and a syntax that is falling out of favor to languages like Ruby, Python and XML based stuff like Ajax. If Java was so mature why does Blu-ray lag in interactivity?


Whoopee, have a cookie. The HDM market is so tiny it doesn't matter at all. Specs will be long since finalized before it matters. I'd rather have better specs in the end than average specs throughout.

Ahhh the speculation and "dream" that "in the end my chosen format will prevail" Sure..whatever. Remember it was you that stated Blu-ray was superior in all areas to paraphrase but when confronted you again "dare to dream". How about we stay in the present time?


That's you. Every poll I've seen says combos should die regardless. DVD needs to die if we want HDM to win!

Is it a technical issue that causes this or a desire to not have to pay the extra cost?


Good for BD. Twins and combos must die along with DVD. I want HDM not rubbish.

Tranfer rates and storage capacity already go to BD. That's all that really matters as they directly affect PQ/AQ. Supplements/interactive features will as well once the profiles go active. Most PQ/AQ enthusiasts could care less though. We just want movies. HD DVD's advantage in supplements/interactive features is a temporary thing and everyone knows it.

Allow me to "Dream" and take the same liberties that you take to support your argumentation. If you posit that that in the future Blu-ray will "close the gap" so to speak then in fairness you'd have to admit that HD DVD has every opportunity to close the Storage/Bandwidth gap as well considering the know formation of TL51GB discs and potential for 1.5x spin speeds. Transfer rates and storage do not directly affect quality regaring picture. There still needs to be expertise in encoding a clean master to yield excellent final results.

Summary

Blu-ray is technically superior in 3 areas that are easy to see.

DRM- BD+ and ROM Mark are sure to make paranoid studios happy.

Storage- Easy math here. 50GB-30 = 20GB advantage

Bandwidth- +10Mbps advantage which I think plays little part in qualitative advantages but we'll see soon enough.

Blu-ray lacks in

Networking -

no standard ethernet?? The present is network homes and the future is pervasive networking. The "I just want to play movies" excuse doesn't cut it. -1

Interactive layer

A train wreck. Java? Would have been great in 2000 but look around. XML based programming is skyrocketing

Mandatory Specs

Forget about the future ..today the platform is weak. No dual AV decoders or persistent storage. Lossless audio support missing again no networking.

Nope...I'm willing to be money that Nature's Journey won't have the type of quality advantage on Blu-ray that warrants any kind of movement. Slowly but surely the bitrate argument is dying.
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post #116 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Summary

Blu-ray is technically superior in 3 areas that are easy to see.

DRM- BD+ and ROM Mark are sure to make paranoid studios happy.

Storage- Easy math here. 50GB-30 = 20GB advantage

Bandwidth- +10Mbps advantage which I think plays little part in qualitative advantages but we'll see soon enough.

Blu-ray lacks in

Networking -

no standard ethernet?? The present is network homes and the future is pervasive networking. The "I just want to play movies" excuse doesn't cut it. -1

Interactive layer

A train wreck. Java? Would have been great in 2000 but look around. XML based programming is skyrocketing

Mandatory Specs

Forget about the future ..today the platform is weak. No dual AV decoders or persistent storage. Lossless audio support missing again no networking.

Nope...I'm willing to be money that Nature's Journey won't have the type of quality advantage on Blu-ray that warrants any kind of movement. Slowly but surely the bitrate argument is dying.

I sort of agree with you on the ethernet. But we have not seen anything exceptional from having an ethernet port. The only advantage I see (I own a ps3) is the ability to update firmware via internet. That is all.

Secondly, your statement regarding java is completely idiotic at best. XML programming is used for simple tasks but in the business world it is heavily used for data exchange(i.e. SOAP). JAVA, is a high level programming language which is capable of doing alot more than any simple XML based language like html or HDi can do. What are you going to say next ? That C++ is obsolete because it came out in 1979
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post #117 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Summary

Blu-ray is technically superior in 3 areas that are easy to see.

DRM- BD+ and ROM Mark are sure to make paranoid studios happy.

Storage- Easy math here. 50GB-30 = 20GB advantage

Bandwidth- +10Mbps advantage which I think plays little part in qualitative advantages but we'll see soon enough.

Blu-ray lacks in

Networking -

no standard ethernet?? The present is network homes and the future is pervasive networking. The "I just want to play movies" excuse doesn't cut it. -1

Interactive layer

A train wreck. Java? Would have been great in 2000 but look around. XML based programming is skyrocketing

Mandatory Specs

Forget about the future ..today the platform is weak. No dual AV decoders or persistent storage. Lossless audio support missing again no networking.

Nope...I'm willing to be money that Nature's Journey won't have the type of quality advantage on Blu-ray that warrants any kind of movement. Slowly but surely the bitrate argument is dying.


As hard as you may be trying, I just don't agree, these posts just keep popping up and getting pages and pages of replies.

And if "neutral" companies optimized releases (ie. Natures Journey), instead of catering to the lowest common denominator to save money. This discussion would be MUCH easier to have.
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post #118 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donricouga View Post

I sort of agree with you on the ethernet. But we have not seen anything exceptional from having an ethernet port. The only advantage I see (I own a ps3) is the ability to update firmware via internet. That is all.

Secondly, your statement regarding java is completely idiotic at best. XML programming is used for simple tasks but in the business world it is heavily used for data exchange(i.e. SOAP). JAVA, is a high level programming language which is capable of doing alot more than any simple XML based language like html or HDi can do. What are you going to say next ? That C++ is obsolete because it came out in 1979

Nyet. I said XML based. I doubt you'll find many Ajax developers that agree with you (of course they're biased). Java is high level and it seems rather odd that it was chosen for an Interactive Layer. I don't want to run applications for interactivity. HDi is very much like Ajax and since it's a markup language it's going to translate better for web access. Authoring is better as well because you don't have to compile and debug nor run in a VM.

Now keep in mind I'm not advocating that HDi is some business tool but within the context of developing an interactive system for a nextgen optical format choosing JAVA was silly. JAVA is clearly more mature but HDi is whoopin its butt. With HDi I have one tool for working with Menus, handling PiP and Networking. Thus HD DVD doesn't have this fragmented "well I think this interactivity works on these players" approach that Blu-ray currently has.

By October HD DVD will have 3 generations of hardware that all support the same HDi functionality shipping. I've got to give kudos to Microsoft and Disney for their work on HDi.
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post #119 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

As hard as you may be trying, I just don't agree, these posts just keep popping up and getting pages and pages of replies.

And if "neutral" companies optimized releases (ie. Natures Journey), instead of catering to the lowest common denominator to save money. This discussion would be MUCH easier to have.

I'm not trying hard. It's relatively easy to see the glaring issues with both formats. HD DVD could use more bandwidth and Blu-ray could use more features that matter to consumers.

The problem with your thinking is that the lowest common denominator is someone not giving us what we want. It's a fallacy. Every movie is going to encode at different levels depending on grain, action sequences and other factors. Who's to say that the movie wasn't captured in excellent fidelity with a mere 20GB of data? There's an assumption or at the least inferrence that if a movie isn't cranked up to 11 on the knob something valuable is being left on the table.
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post #120 of 622 Old 08-14-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Nyet. I said XML based. I doubt you'll find many Ajax developers that agree with you (of course they're biased). Java is high level and it seems rather odd that it was chosen for an Interactive Layer. I don't want to run applications for interactivity. HDi is very much like Ajax and since it's a markup language it's going to translate better for web access. Authoring is better as well because you don't have to compile and debug nor run in a VM.

Now keep in mind I'm not advocating that HDi is some business tool but within the context of developing an interactive system for a nextgen optical format choosing JAVA was silly. JAVA is clearly more mature but HDi is whoopin its butt. With HDi I have one tool for working with Menus, handling PiP and Networking. Thus HD DVD doesn't have this fragmented "well I think this interactivity works on these players" approach that Blu-ray currently has.

By October HD DVD will have 3 generations of hardware that all support the same HDi functionality shipping. I've got to give kudos to Microsoft and Disney for their work on HDi.

What do you think AJAX is ? It exchanges data with servers(Java based, .net etc) to manipulated the DOM Tree.
I'm also an ajax developer as well but that aside i think you'll find that OCAP developers will also disagree with you. Java is going to be found more and more on set top boxes and bluray deciding to use java was a good move in my opinion. Of course dealing with more powerful technology is not going to move nowhere near as fast as coming up with some quick, cute little tools to do pretty menus, PiP and networking. The fact is, it is limited. Right now, there is nothing next generation about blu-ray or hddvd in terms of interactivity or networking.
PiP ? That is not Java related but it could be used for PiP. HDMV could also be used for picture in picture.
I say Java is a good choice because its more future proof and robust. Do not blame the lack of hardware on the software(JAVA). Right now perhaps alot of us don't see much use for using a more powerful tool like java on bluray but in the future studios may come up with some bright ideas that will required JAVA. Currently nothing on hddvd is providing that wow factor that makes it so much superior to bluray and vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

HD DVD could use more bandwidth and Blu-ray could use more features that matter to consumers.

Its so obvious that features matter for consumers based on the overwhelming lead hddvd has over bluray in software sales
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