Is BD-J Blu-ray's achilles heel? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 09:13 PM
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As a programmer by profession, I completely agree with the point that Java is a tremendously over-complicated, error-prone, and absurdly work-intensive way to program DVD interactivity.

Java is a complex, detailed programming language; development schedules for products produced with Java are usually measured in double-digit months. Using Java for simple DVD interactivity is a ridiculously complex approach. It is, quite simply, the wrong tool for the job -- you're assembling a bookcase gluing together toothpicks instead of a bunch of good sized precut boards.

Pretty much anyone, with minimal training, can do the high-level programming required by Microsoft's HDi. The creativity here is in designing the interactive environment, not in doing the actual programming. A HDi programmer is just as likely to be an artist as a computer science grad. With Java, you have dual creative challenges: The Design and the Programming. And the Programming has to be executed by a highly skilled Java professional (read "high salary").

Imagine you're Henry Ford putting together the first car. You can sub-contract parts construction to other companies and then just assemble all the pieces together cheaply and quickly, or you can try to make all the parts yourself. Which way would you go? If the BD folks had been around at the time, the assembly line would never have been invented.
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post #32 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lampert View Post

This is an unreasonable statement. EVERY major studio is extremely important. And considering that HD DVD players are regularly sold in the low $200's with at least 5 free movies, there is absolutely no reason for a Blu-ray supporter to have to settle for upscaled Universal and Paramount titles.

As far as BD-J goes, the last thing the studio wants is to be saddled with complex programming for every title they put out. At some point, the studios will probably be releasing their huge catalogs on HDM at a fast pace and they don't want or need an anchor like this weighing them down every time they want to add some nice feature.

Java is object oriented. That means when you solve a difficult problem, you have these objects around that can be extended and used again and again. The studios aren't going to be writing every disc from scratch.

This is a point missed again and again by all the critics blasting Java (strange that they all seem to be HD-DVD zealots) for an applet they ran in 1997.
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post #33 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Borvio View Post

Uh, so the RCA HDV5000 doesn't exist? How about the upcoming Onkyo? Unless you meant all are based off of Toshiba players

But as to the topic, I think Java in general sucks. It's slow and problematic. Sony has the Cell processor and BD-Java as the white elephants of its PS3. Sure, it can do a lot in theory, but try writing material for the thing. That's the problem they are faced with with games, and probably is the same reason for sluggish movie releases by some BR studios.

The RCA is just the HD-A1 with a different logo stuck on. Even the motherboards and external plastics look the same.

I have not seen an onkyo insides yet, but if it is one of the Toshiba's designs, then it will have no compatibility issues (because it's still a toshiba). If they designed it themselves, then who knows? New disks now have to work on both.

I doubt they designed it themselves.

As for PS3 games, I've seen newer games that actually are looking quite good, but that thing clearly needs more games. Better still --- PS3 needs motion sensing controllers and new concept games --- highdef 3D graphics alone doesn't cut it anymore, as X360 found out after being outsold by Wii after being in the market for more than twice as long that wii has been selling for.

The real gaming story is wii, as that seems to say that highdef gaming is not valued by most people, motion aware controllers with casual games are.

Ever played Guitar Hero? My kids spend all their gaming time on that thing on an old launch-day PS2, barely playing GoW and NinjaGaidenSigma. The pattern's the same. New game launched, bought it, tried it for a weekend, move back to Guitar Hero II, my guess is that they'll get Halo III, play that for a couple of weekends, and then go back to Guitar Hero II.

It's incredible to see how much time they spend redoing the GH II songs at more and more difficult levels to compete with friends.

That game has basically no need for a 3D engine, let alone highdef, yet I am seeing that 80% of their gaming time is taken up by this thing, even when their friends come over, they compete on those guitars. All on that launch day PS2. The fact that all this SD low-def thing is connected to a 1080P LCD just makes me shake my head.

Anyway, this is all getting off topic. Sorry.
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post #34 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flave View Post

As a programmer by profession, I completely agree with the point that Java is a tremendously over-complicated, error-prone, and absurdly work-intensive way to program DVD interactivity.

Java is a complex, detailed programming language; development schedules for products produced with Java are usually measured in double-digit months. Using Java for simple DVD interactivity is a ridiculously complex approach. It is, quite simply, the wrong tool for the job -- you're assembling a bookcase gluing together toothpicks instead of a bunch of good sized precut boards.

Pretty much anyone, with minimal training, can do the high-level programming required by Microsoft's HDi. The creativity here is in designing the interactive environment, not in doing the actual programming. A HDi programmer is just as likely to be an artist as a computer science grad. With Java, you have dual creative challenges: The Design and the Programming. And the Programming has to be executed by a highly skilled Java professional (read "high salary").

Imagine you're Henry Ford putting together the first car. You can sub-contract parts construction to other companies and then just assemble all the pieces together cheaply and quickly, or you can try to make all the parts yourself. Which way would you go? If the BD folks had been around at the time, the assembly line would never have been invented.


I find Java quite simple and elegant to program. It's as error prone as any other language in that it does exactly what you ask. Have you ever worked in C or C++? Complex programs in those languages take much longer to debug and release. Why do you think Microsoft has to release a security patch every other week?

I repeat: A studio could create a library of common objects and turn them over to people with an artistic bent. It's not a new project every time a new disc is authored.

I'd wager a bright Java programmer could write a Java library with an HDi API. Then you could let "pretty much anyone" do the work.
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post #35 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 09:35 PM
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^^^ The problem is the lead time to have everything ready for the 2007 Holiday season. If the specs for the API wasn't nailed down six months ago, there's not enough time to do the development and have anything ready for replication by, say, Sep 2007. Don't forget that the players due to be released this holiday are undergoing testing and debugging about now. The players have to be finished before the discs can be tested. On the surface, it seems that Paramount made the right decisiion.
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post #36 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 09:43 PM
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So I thought I'd time the two POTC movies and Chicken Little to see how "slow" Java is:

Curse Of The Black Pearl
Startup - Spinning Coin to first trailer: 6 seconds
Game (Scoundrels Of The Sea): Select game in Menu to intro screen: 9 seconds

Dead Man's Chest
Startup - Spinning Key to first trailer: 5 seconds
Game (Liars Dice): Select game in menu to intro screen: 6 seconds

Chicken Little
Select Space Invaders game from menu to screen: 5 seconds


If you find those load times intolerable I suggest you need to lay off the caffeine. I think there's some serious FUD floating around this forum.
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post #37 of 232 Old 08-24-2007, 10:44 PM
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As a programmer, I'll admit Java affords a lot more freedom and flexibility, but at a cost. Development times will likely be longer and require programmers with a greater experience. Different virtual machine implementations from different manufacturers can become a problem (and already have been) and it will only get worse as more BD players are brought to market with differing specs. The whole thing just looks like a mess. With the current state of BDs specs in limbo, its hard to say if studios will even want to push advanced features knowing some players cannot utilize all interactive content. There are just too many loose ends right now that aren't looking good for BD-J. I'm not saying BD-J isn't capable of doing some amazing things. But how many times will we have to hear: "But wait, that feature will be in there" year after year before people wise up?


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post #38 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phloyd View Post

Nobody with a PS3 will give a damn what they do on HD DVD since they can't play the discs. And Paramount is not important enough to get BD owners to buy an HD DVD player.



That's why there has been a MAJOR spike in sales of stand alone HD DVD players?
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post #39 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javayoda View Post

So I thought I'd time the two POTC movies and Chicken Little to see how "slow" Java is:

Curse Of The Black Pearl
Startup - Spinning Coin to first trailer: 6 seconds
Game (Scoundrels Of The Sea): Select game in Menu to intro screen: 9 seconds

Dead Man's Chest
Startup - Spinning Key to first trailer: 5 seconds
Game (Liars Dice): Select game in menu to intro screen: 6 seconds

Chicken Little
Select Space Invaders game from menu to screen: 5 seconds


If you find those load times intolerable I suggest you need to lay off the caffeine. I think there's some serious FUD floating around this forum.


Try it with any player that is NOT a PS3.

Or are you trying to say that the PS3 should be the sole BD player and there is no need for stand alones...

Got news for ya, but a game machine is not what J6p wants in a dvd player for the future.
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post #40 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 05:28 AM
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Java is a dangerous tool in the hands of young generation programmers that don't have the discipline that was required for the resource limited environments in the old days.

A 'garbage collector' is required to clean up the mess. Go figure...

Counting the clock cycles the ops needed to get that last bit of performance gain, those where the days.
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post #41 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 05:30 AM
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Is there a reference implementation of BD-J? Or is everybody rolling their own implementation? The studios may be very leary of "write once, debug everywhere" with Java.
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post #42 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybereality View Post

As a programmer, I'll admit Java affords a lot more freedom and flexibility, but at a cost. Development times will likely be longer and require programmers with a greater experience. Different virtual machine implementations from different manufacturers can become a problem (and already have been) and it will only get worse as more BD players are brought to market with differing specs.

And that's it in a nutshell. It could be very good, very feature rich..........but with so many CEs & platforms it could be a nightmare. One only need look at what happened with PoTC.

How are they going to handle updates? On the disc? See above, so many platforms = asking for toruble (it works on games because you're updating a single platform). Mailed out? Lack of mandatory ethernet precludes downloads.

How?

Talking mass market here, avg consumer will not be happy with excessive loads &/or tough updates.

It's just my opinion & it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
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post #43 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 05:56 AM
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The cost of hiring a java menu designer is a non issue. It'd be a contracting role, prolly at about £250 a day if the market is anything like in London. This is a tiny fraction of the cost of DVDs.
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post #44 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 05:57 AM
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try{

If get_player_model() == 'Samsung BD1000'
}
catch {..
No Hires pcm
Spin_coin_for_another_2_seconds()
...}

try{
Sony...}

Catch{...}

try{
Another Sony ...}
}


catch{..
/* post player identity and IP across detected web connection. */}


/* implement code for future players here */

try {...
PS3 }
catch {
Prompt for firmware upgrade.
}

/* Finaly succeeded */
try{
Lock_out_user_commands()
Show_trailers()
}
catch {
/*prompt user for advanced mode */

Restart_initialize()
}

try{
Start_movie()
}
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post #45 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 06:28 AM
 
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One word...
OK, four words
Pirates of the Caribbean...
it's completely horrible on anything but a PS3 and an insider here all but admitted that.
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post #46 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

It is one of the factors that is going to help Blu Ray win.

I am surprised you'd even post that title that based on all we know. Despite the article.

BD-J is touted as a plus, not a liability.

Anything can be touted as a plus. Having it actually happen is the difficulty. Other than playing on the PS3, so far it has not been reported to be a plus.
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post #47 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakesh.S View Post

4. Lack of "twin format" discs where you can fit a dvd and HD on the same side with artwork. This will be the trojan horse that will end the war, not the PS3 (which may not even be compatible with the bluray specs when it's all said and done, and this is bluray's flagship player).

Wow, another person added to my list of FUDers. I can't believe anyone trying deliberately to spread disinformation like this.
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post #48 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakedeye View Post

Try it with any player that is NOT a PS3.

Or are you trying to say that the PS3 should be the sole BD player and there is no need for stand alones...

Got news for ya, but a game machine is not what J6p wants in a dvd player for the future.


You're fooling yourself if you think the chipset manufacturers aren't going to make significant advances.

By the way, that game machine also runs Linux, folds proteins, displays digital photographs, shows home movies, plays CDs and SACDs and upscales DVDs. Actually pretty much the same things that game machine you used to type your post with does (and some things much better).

J6P doesn't even have an HDTV. Start there first.
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post #49 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey151 View Post

And that's it in a nutshell. It could be very good, very feature rich..........but with so many CEs & platforms it could be a nightmare. One only need look at what happened with PoTC.

How are they going to handle updates? On the disc? See above, so many platforms = asking for toruble (it works on games because you're updating a single platform). Mailed out? Lack of mandatory ethernet precludes downloads.

How?

Talking mass market here, avg consumer will not be happy with excessive loads &/or tough updates.


Many CEs using very few chipsets. Blu-Ray is in the dominant position even after Paramount shafted it's customers. If there's demand, some enterprising company will step and solve this problem. I'm not shocked that first BD players have performance problems.

By the way, I've updated a Phillips DVD player by downloading the firmware, burning it to a cd and inserting it in the player. Arguably easier than setting up a router with DNS, running a cat5 cable through your house, making sure the player is properly configured, etc. We are talking about the "avg consumer" here.
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post #50 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 07:26 AM
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After reading all the previous, it occurred to me that Toshiba being essentially the only manufacturer of HD DVD so far might end up being an advantage. I guess I pretty much accept the premise that ANY programming could run into problems when presented with a variety of hardware (and firmware) trying to run it .

Couldn't the present situation become an HD DVD advantage when advancing to mainstream?

Today programmers makes sure things are OK on Tosh machines. That pretty much makes sure everyone is happy.

We already have a wide variety of discs that work on Tosh machines.

A new HD DVD machine manufacturer has all these discs to make sure his machine is compatable with the Tosh.

A wide variety of hardware combinations has been a headache for programmers for years. PC beta testers anyone?

Dave
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post #51 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakedeye View Post

Try it with any player that is NOT a PS3.

Or are you trying to say that the PS3 should be the sole BD player and there is no need for stand alones...

Got news for ya, but a game machine is not what J6p wants in a dvd player for the future.

+1
Good catch there. I thought I was the only one that noticed that.
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post #52 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 09:47 AM
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Exactly...can you see grandma and grandpa going out and buying a PS3?
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post #53 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javayoda View Post

...

By the way, I've updated a Phillips DVD player by downloading the firmware, burning it to a cd and inserting it in the player. Arguably easier than setting up a router with DNS, running a cat5 cable through your house, making sure the player is properly configured, etc. We are talking about the "avg consumer" here.

How is the avg consumer going to know that his device is going to need a firmware upgrade?

And setting up a router, dns and cabling for the pc is somehow easier?
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post #54 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

How is the avg consumer going to know that his device is going to need a firmware upgrade?

And setting up a router, dns and cabling for the pc is somehow easier?

All I know is I've done firmware updates for all kinds of products for years. I don't think the average consumer is as stupid as many here apparently believe.

I really find the HD-DVD mindset very interesting. Here they are, supposedly technology enthusiasts, and they're cheering low-cost hardware from China and bashing technologies because they're too advanced.

Very, very strange.
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post #55 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

try{

If get_player_model() == 'Samsung BD1000'
}
catch {..
No Hires pcm
Spin_coin_for_another_2_seconds()
...}

try{
Sony...}

Catch{...}

try{
Another Sony ...}
}


catch{..
/* post player identity and IP across detected web connection. */}


/* implement code for future players here */

try {...
PS3 }
catch {
Prompt for firmware upgrade.
}

/* Finaly succeeded */
try{
Lock_out_user_commands()
Show_trailers()
}
catch {
/*prompt user for advanced mode */

Restart_initialize()
}

try{
Start_movie()
}

Mildly amusing. Probably not much different from all that XBOX 360 code that fixes lip sync and playability issues on a per title basis.
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post #56 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javayoda View Post

I really find the HD-DVD mindset very interesting. Here they are, supposedly technology enthusiasts, and they're cheering low-cost hardware from China and bashing technologies because they're too advanced.

Very, very strange.

How can something be "too advanced" when it's not even complete?
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post #57 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javayoda View Post

All I know is I've done firmware updates for all kinds of products for years. I don't think the average consumer is as stupid as many here apparently believe.

I really find the HD-DVD mindset very interesting. Here they are, supposedly technology enthusiasts, and they're cheering low-cost hardware from China and bashing technologies because they're too advanced.

Very, very strange.

Javayoda, the average consumer isn't stuipid they just might not want to be bothered with firmware updates. I've also seen you make this remark about HD DVD proponents cheering for low cost hardware from China. Don't you think low cost hardware is important for the average consumer to adopt your format of choice? Would you like to see BD hardware stay in the 500 and above range?
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post #58 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javayoda View Post

I really find the HD-DVD mindset very interesting. Here they are, supposedly technology enthusiasts, and they're cheering low-cost hardware from China and bashing technologies because they're too advanced.

Very, very strange.

If the Chinese hardware is up to spec, I see no reason why not to buy one. The Chinese seem to have no problem making just about everything else. I admit Blu-Ray has the more "advanced" specs on paper, if you want to go there. But HD DVD delivers the complete experience today and for cheaper at that. I think the business model is economically viable (especially the manufacturing end) and it has a better chance of going mainstream. Many of the people here will still get the high-end HD DVD player for $500 or whatever. The cheap players are to get the general public on board.


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post #59 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpco View Post

How can something be "too advanced" when it's not even complete?

BD-J is complete. Please stick to the topic of the discussion.
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post #60 of 232 Old 08-25-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javayoda View Post

All I know is I've done firmware updates for all kinds of products for years. I don't think the average consumer is as stupid as many here apparently believe.

I really find the HD-DVD mindset very interesting. Here they are, supposedly technology enthusiasts, and they're cheering low-cost hardware from China and bashing technologies because they're too advanced.

Very, very strange.

There's a very big difference between "too advanced" and needlessly complicated, over-designed, and overpriced.
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