HDM Rumor thread! Put all rumors here. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

Does that mean TL 51GB is backward compatible?

Surely it would have to be, if they are anywhere near releasing a movie on these disks. Especially seeing as there are no Gen3 players around yet.
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post #542 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 06:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CraigCooper View Post

Surely it would have to be, if they are anywhere near releasing a movie on these disks. Especially seeing as there are no Gen3 players around yet.

Uh, A30s seem to have popped up in Texas.
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post #543 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CraigCooper View Post

Surely it would have to be...

It would not have to be.

And don't call me Shirley.
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post #544 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 06:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

It would not have to be.

And don't call me Shirley.

Hospital! What is it?
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post #545 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 06:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

Hospital! What is it?

It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.



There are so few opportunities to use the Shirley bit - I feel compelled to take advantage any chance I get.
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post #546 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Yep! That's the one

At least everyone knows what it's about - I had to do some due diligence with Mark, as AVS has to ensure that false rumours are not propogated on the site.

But there's a lot more info - however, I have been asked nicely by my sources to hold the rest of the info for 30 days... I hope you understand it's in the best interests of HD DVD that I do this, folks...

Suffice to say, tho, I do know what the first 51 Gig title is likely to be

Awesome! So without revealing any specifics, can you say that 51GB titles are already being planned?
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post #547 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:01 PM
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If the 51gig discs don't work with EVERY HD player that comes out before the first 51gg disc, then this is just as bad as the profile problem that BD is apparently going to face.

If it does work on all players and the yield % is high, then this could be big
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post #548 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IRockSoAwesome View Post

If the 51gig discs don't work with EVERY HD player that comes out before the first 51gg disc, then this is just as bad as the profile problem that BD is apparently going to face.

If it does work on all players and the yield % is high, then this could be big

It's a little different. Say the 51gb discs only work on second and third gen players. LOTR comes out on HD DVD. The average consumer will play hell going to the store and buying the wrong player. It can easily happen with BD, and will for months in to the future.
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post #549 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

It's a little different. Say the 51gb discs only work on second and third gen players. LOTR comes out on HD DVD. The average consumer will play hell going to the store and buying the wrong player. It can easily happen with BD, and will for months in to the future.

You're right, I'm thinking in the now, not the then
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post #550 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Suffice to say, tho, I do know what the first 51 Gig title is likely to be

Pirates of the Carribean as it apparently couldn't be done on a 30GB disc


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post #551 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

It's a little different. Say the 51gb discs only work on second and third gen players. LOTR comes out on HD DVD. The average consumer will play hell going to the store and buying the wrong player. It can easily happen with BD, and will for months in to the future.

I think there's a big difference between "I bought this movie and it doesn't play on my machine" and "I bought this movie and one of the bonus features doesn't work on my machine".

And you can bet that any BD that includes 1.1-required bonus features will have that clearly labelled on the box.

If TL51 isn't universally compatible (and I'm not saying its not, mind you), then I think it will not find much use in commercially released software.

In videogames there's a very similar, very strong force as well usually called the "Lowest Common Denominator" effect -- once a new platform is released, whatever its specifications are is pretty much IT - all software producers will release for that specification. So even if Microsoft came out with a HD-DVD version of the XBOX (for example), no publishers would write software for it because it would segment their market and deny them potential sales.

The best you would get is perhaps a special addition or a special feature or two that requires it. That is pretty much what BD1.1 does - its just a way to incorporate some additional add-on features, but I doubt you'll EVER see a disc that requires BD1.1 to play the basic movie/content. Just like you never see a DVD that requires DTS - since DTS wasn't part of the original DVD specification release, no publisher would take the risk of requiring what is an optional feature.

If TL51 is universal or Toshiba is willing to do some sort of exchange/upgrade program to get rid of the players that don't work (costly!) then it will be relegated to the occasional "special edition" or maybe it will be used to store additional bonus footage or something.
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post #552 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

I think there's a big difference between "I bought this movie and it doesn't play on my machine" and "I bought this movie and one of the bonus features doesn't work on my machine".

Let's look at that for a second. A consumer walks into a store and sees a BD that says, "fancy internet features". He has no clue as to how these things work, but he likes the movies and likes the idea of the features. He gets the disc home and the things he bought the disc for don't work. Sounds like a return to me. In my particular case I have bought 2 of my favorite movies because the performance on my BD player sucks. That's $60 that they won't get until they fix the issue. I suspect I would have to buy a third player to get that done.

I agree with what say about "Lowest common denominator" though. That's why I believe that within a year, most studios will have to abandon the special features on BD. Granted, they will still make movies, but I like the features on movies I really like.
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post #553 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

I am reading as well the dot size is smaller so they will be more difficult to produce. If TL-45 was easier why not just stick with that. Manufacturing yields are starting to become very relevant of late.

Actually, the shift to a tighter dot pitch for 17 gig layers actually made it easier to replicate, as the were apparently some interferometry issues with the pitch on the 15 gig layers. Seems it caused the manufacturing tolerances to be very "tight" for the 45 design. Seems the TL51 has been had better success.

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #554 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

My guess: a year. However, IMO it'll be at least a couple of years before we see a TL51 title in stores.

Don't be too hasty...

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #555 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Don't be too hasty...

OK, I understand that you can't say too much about TL51, but can you tell us this:

Is it possible that people with older HD players will not be able to play movies that come out on TL51 discs?
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post #556 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

It's a little different. Say the 51gb discs only work on second and third gen players. LOTR comes out on HD DVD. The average consumer will play hell going to the store and buying the wrong player. It can easily happen with BD, and will for months in to the future.

Let's just say I feel very comfortable with the situation

Remember that Toshiba has been committed to making sure that all users can get the same full experience from any release a studio may make.

Let's suppose that over the next 30 days a poster convinces someone that some G1 players have drives that can't handle TL51 - and I am definitely NOT saying this is the case, so don't think this is code because it isn't. But if some users FELT that to be the case, given the importance of Toshiba's committment, if I were calling the shots, I'd do a regional "refit" to replace the drives for those owners.

So even if anyone thought the doomsayers were correct - it still wouldn't represent a deal-breaker.

And what the doomsayers actually fail to recognize is that ALL players on sale right now certainly definitely DO NOT have an issue. ANYONE can confidently buy any HD DVD players on sale today and not even think twice about TL51 support.

But don't believe the doomsayers - a happy story I can tell next month involves an XA1... and most of us realize that the XA1 is identical to the A1 in terms of the drive...

Now I am going to dinner before I say too much!! Argh, this is tough

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #557 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:01 PM
 
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All these "what if's" are just that . . . speculation. There are no facts that say the TL51 will not work. Just like there are no facts that say it will work.

Until such time that Toshiba/HD DVD PG makes an announcement - isn't it better if we wait?

Because you want to talk about a nightmare . . .

What if the PS3 can't be upgraded to profile 1.1 and 2.0? We have seen nothing from Sony that says it can be.

I can easily play the game of "what if" with that one now can't I?

And no proof exists either way. . . just like the TL51.
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post #558 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCheese View Post

Link?

I was wrong it was Talkstr8t that confirmed the chart was based on revenue rather than number of units.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post11494463
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post #559 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Let's just say I feel very comfortable with the situation

Remember that Toshiba has been committed to making sure that all users can get the same full experience from any release a studio may make.

That is the main reason why I lean a bit more toward HD DVD. I consider it to be less confusing and more consumer friendly. The thing that has always bothered me, it that Disney also is a strong believer in consumer friendly products, yet they are BD exclusive.
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post #560 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRockSoAwesome View Post

OK, I understand that you can't say too much about TL51, but can you tell us this:

Is it possible that people with older HD players will not be able to play movies that come out on TL51 discs?

These quotes are interesting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCheese View Post

And also the word from CEDIA is that ALL players even 1st generation are all backwards compatible for the new TL51's. HUGE blow to BD, can't wait for the spin doctors to start up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

...I had several sources tell me that Toshiba has confirmed that all 1st gen players wil l be 3rd layer capable as well as shipping 2nd 3rd gen Toshibas or as well as all announced players from Venturer or Intergra or any on the Broadcomm Soc HD DVD or Dual format solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

...I understand that during the course of development, 10's of thousands of Triple Layer discs have been produced and tested... next month I may be able to give you some more info - but I can't say anything else at this point...

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post #561 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:07 PM
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At least tell us that is there going to be an official announcement from Toshiba regarding this in near future?

A Home Theater Enthusiast!
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post #562 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

At least tell us that is there going to be an official announcement from Toshiba regarding this in near future?

At this rate they'll have to confirm or deny it, won't they?
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post #563 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

At this rate they'll have to confirm or deny it, won't they?

Headlines "Toshiba says the 51 disc doesnt work. That is all."
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post #564 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

At this rate they'll have to confirm or deny it, won't they?

I don't know about that. There are many i's to be dotted and t's to be crossed in the next month or so - too much has probably been said here - but certainly enough for everyone to be comfortable. I suspect that the only dangers in the next 40 days are political...

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #565 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by D-X View Post

Headlines "Toshiba says the 51 disc doesnt work. That is all."

That would settle it me thinks.
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post #566 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian1212 View Post

I don't have to disprove each point to say it's full of mis-information, but here's some starters:

- Personalization? HD DVD has no advantage here
- Better Audio? Is there something better than uncompressed audio?
- No risk of obsolesence? jury is out on TL51 on the HD DVD side. Also, any discs with BD-J 1.1 will be backwards compatible on the Blu Ray side.
- Industry Standard: Blu Ray is an industry standard, with wider industry support than HD DVD
- BD-J is still not implemented? It's in every Blu Ray player

Brian,
Take 51 red pills tonight before you go to bed and you'll feel better in the morning.
I promise you.
Cheers!
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post #567 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I don't know about that. There are many i's to be dotted and t's to be crossed in the next month or so - too much has probably been said here - but certainly enough for everyone to be comfortable. I suspect that the only dangers in the next 40 days are political...

rjam, nothing but utmost respect for you and your opinion is always rock solid. But there is nothing said from anyone outside of you and a couple others that makes me "comfortable" about this just yet.

And mind you, I don't even care. So far I have yet to watch an HD DVD that made me think "Man, if they only had 20 more GB on the disc........" But for me to be convinced of anything, for me.....it's gotta come from Amir or anyone else who is a true insider.

Don't get me wrong my friend, I am not accusing you of being wrong or lying. HD DVD Tiermates to the end. I just want to see someone in an official position tell us what you're telling us before I'm doing the victory dance.
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post #568 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:38 PM
 
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[quote=Michael Mullis;11566429]
HD DVD Tiermates to the end. /QUOTE]

Don't get all excited about that. I seem to be on that stupid list, or so I'm told, and I could give a damn who wins. I like the tech side of BD and the consumer side of HD DVD and believe that both would be fine and that both are going to niche. Apparently anyone who has ever said anything but "HD DVD suxors" is on it.
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post #569 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:42 PM
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WHere is this "teir list" at anyway? Ive always wondered what you guys are talking about.
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post #570 of 1560 Old 09-08-2007, 08:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

rjam, nothing but utmost respect for you and your opinion is always rock solid. But there is nothing said from anyone outside of you and a couple others that makes me "comfortable" about this just yet.

And mind you, I don't even care. So far I have yet to watch an HD DVD that made me think "Man, if they only had 20 more GB on the disc........" But for me to be convinced of anything, for me.....it's gotta come from Amir or anyone else who is a true insider.

Don't get me wrong my friend, I am not accusing you of being wrong or lying. HD DVD Tiermates to the end. I just want to see someone in an official position tell us what you're telling us before I'm doing the victory dance.

It's funny - you put so much emphasis on the TL51 yet ignore the DL and TL Twin Format HD DVD's. THESE are the nuclear bombs that HD DVD is going to drop on BD - who is defenseless against them.

The ONLY thing the TL51 does is stop the heckling from the BD fanboys about storage and bandwidth. The friggin BD is a DATA DISC first and a movie disc second. It was released the opposite way DVD was released.

IMO - the TL51 means squat, doda, nada, crap, zero. If the PQ is equal on a 30Gb as it is on a 50GB - what is there to gain? Have the BD fanboys eat crow?

Just imagine their horror when an HD DVD studio releases a major blockbuster on the TL Twin and sells 10 million copies. KABOOM! Bye bye BD advantage! And it happens in 1 week - not months.
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