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post #721 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 10:25 AM
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In not so good Blu-ray news, Batman Begins from Warner has been pushed back to May/June release to coincide with The Dark Knight theatrical window.
TDK is opening July 18th.

For Warner it is not a delay of the title as it has never officially been given a date.

This has nothing to do with IME, simply the timing makes more sense for Warner with all the other titles already scheduled for Q4/07.

Terminator 3 looks very likely to have PCM and TrueHD on the Blu-ray release and is currently planned for Q4/07
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post #722 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:22 AM
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Quote:

Was there some discussion if bandwidth there that I missed?

That's what I'm asking about.

-Steve
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post #723 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Was there some discussion if bandwidth there that I missed?

That's what I'm asking about.

No - bandwidth is a total unknown. We do not know if it will increase or stay the same - at least it has not been announced.
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post #724 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

All video (including PiP), audio and subtitles are muxed (multiplexed) into one data stream. In other words, all video, audio and subtitles are read into player's memory simultaneously, even though only the ones chosen by the user are displayed/played. The bitrate limit for this data stream is 30 megabits per second.

Some see this as a problem with the HD DVD format, since the maximum bitrate allowed by Blu-ray is quite a ways higher.

Imagine a situation where the HD DVD title contains several audio tracks and PiP feature for In-Movie Experience/U-Control. Subtitles are not really an issue because their bitrate requirements are rather insignificant. For example:

Audio1: Dolby Digital Plus @ 640kbps CBR (constant bitrate)
Audio2: Dolby TrueHD @ VBR (variable bitrate), bitrate depends on content, let's assume 100kbps-3500kbps
PiP: averaging 1Mbit (a guess on my part)

For example's sake, let's assume that during an intense action scene TrueHD track is clocking in at 3500kbps. In those scenes audio+PiP are already hogging more than 5Mbps of the 30Mbps maximum, leaving less than 25Mbps for video encode peaks. The more audio tracks you add, the less bandwidth there's available for video's bitrate peaks.

During "quieter" scenes there's more room for higher video peaks, naturally.

Hope this explanation helped.

The logic behind all of this is correct.

However with current tools, all track bandwidth allocations are made statically. After the individual tracks are encoeded (video, audio, PiP, etc...) they are then multiplexed (aka "mux'ed") into to a single stream.

What this means is that even though DD+, or the PiP video, may not be at peak bitrate, the space "carved out" of the overall bandwidth budget is the peak value. So if your audio stream hit's 1.5Mbps only ONCE in the move, you have to carve out 1.5 for the WHOLE movie.

It's anticiapted that a tool upgrade will bring dynamic allocation capability to the multiplexor. "Dynamux"!

-Steve
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post #725 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

In not so good Blu-ray news, Batman Begins from Warner has been pushed back to May/June release to coincide with The Dark Knight theatrical window.
TDK is opening July 18th.

Can I ask where you got this info from?
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post #726 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

The logic behind all of this is correct.

However with current tools, all track bandwidth allocations are made statically. After the individual tracks are encoeded (video, audio, PiP, etc...) they are then multiplexed (aka "mux'ed") into to a single stream.

What this means is that even though DD+, or the PiP video, may not be at peak bitrate, the space "carved out" of the overall bandwidth budget is the peak value. So if your audio stream hit's 1.5Mbps only ONCE in the move, you have to carve out 1.5 for the WHOLE movie.

It's anticiapted that a tool upgrade will bring dynamic allocation capability to the multiplexor. "Dynamux"!

That makes a lot of sense. You could encode the audio first, then as the compressionist is working with the video he could see how much of his budget is being allocated to the audio at any point in the movie.
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post #727 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:47 AM
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With 51 GB of space, would it not be possible to encode most movies twice on the same disc, once with a TrueHD audio track and once with a DD+ & PiP? Seems that would be a way to get around any bandwidth constraints.

Don’t they do this on some Blu-ray discs? The movie is encoded twice, once with the normal film and once with PiP previously embedded on top of the film.
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post #728 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdzie1 View Post

With 51 GB of space, would it not be possible to encode most movies twice on the same disc, once with a TrueHD audio track and once with a DD+ & PiP? Seems that would be a way to get around any bandwidth constraints.

Don't they do this on some Blu-ray discs? The movie is encoded twice, once with the normal film and once with PiP previously embedded on top of the film.

Well you'd have 25.5 GB for the feature instead of 30GB.

No thanks. It's akin to what they've done to get PiP on some 50GB BD releases, doing two entire versions of the same movie on one disc.

That's a huge step backwards.
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post #729 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cdzie1 View Post

With 51 GB of space, would it not be possible to encode most movies twice on the same disc, once with a TrueHD audio track and once with a DD+ & PiP? Seems that would be a way to get around any bandwidth constraints.

Don't they do this on some Blu-ray discs? The movie is encoded twice, once with the normal film and once with PiP previously embedded on top of the film.



The bandwidth cap is the bandwidth cap, regardless of whether you are putting something on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd layer.

You could record 5 minutes of the movie, if the bandwidth cap is hit, you still couldnt fit lossless on the 5 minute clip.
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post #730 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by IRockSoAwesome View Post

Can I ask where you got this info from?

No I'm afraid I cannot answer that question.

If you want a good read from December 2006 which should prove credibility, you can read this:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=1439
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post #731 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

The bandwidth cap is the bandwidth cap, regardless of whether you are putting something on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd layer.

You could record 5 minutes of the movie, if the bandwidth cap is hit, you still couldnt fit lossless on the 5 minute clip.

Thankfully there are a lot of HD DVD movies that have lossless audio and 1080p video so we do not have to argue about that.
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post #732 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Thankfully there are a lot of HD DVD movies that have lossless audio and 1080p video so we do not have to argue about that.

I was explaining this to him, I wasnt slighting HD DVD, stop putting words in my mouth.
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post #733 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRockSoAwesome View Post

Can I ask where you got this info from?

I may be wrong, and I don't want to offend Doby, but something out of my stomach tells me he is working for Panasonic. Don't know why this is popping off my head, probably due to some categoric statements regarding Pana production things in the insiders thread...
Just my two cents, I believe Dobyblue has some kind of inside knowledge.

Edit: Doby, are you a BD insider, or am I totally off the track?

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post #734 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

I was explaining this to him, I wasnt slighting HD DVD, stop putting words in my mouth.

Man, everyone's so touchy last couple of years. You'd think there was a war going on or something.

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post #735 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Man, everyone's so touchy last couple of years. You'd think there was a war going on or something.



That, or I get 3 fanboys elbow deep every time I post something because they don't bother to read 3 posts up.
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post #736 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Where have you read anything on this that addressed bandwidth?

Everything thus far in print/online has been silent on the subject it seems.

The rest has been from discussions at the show that some folks here had.

FWIW, there previously has been a brief discussion about bandwidth and the TL51 by insiders here and here.

I don't know if this applied to the final submission. But together with comments concerning likely compatablility with current players, it is interesting.

I do remember another discussion about TL51 indicating there were 2 ways to proceed being considered. The primary concern between the 2 was the ease with which to maintain compatability.
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post #737 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LP30 View Post

FWIW, there previously has been a brief discussion about bandwidth and the TL51 by insiders here and here.

I don't know if this applied to the final submission. But together with comments concerning likely compatablility with current players, it is interesting.

I do remember another discussion about TL51 indicating there were 2 ways to proceed being considered. The primary concern between the 2 was the ease with which to maintain compatability.

So you are saying that there is a very slight possibility that at some unspecified time in the future HD DVD might attain the technical capabilities that BD has currently?
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post #738 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

So you are saying that there is a very slight possibility that at some unspecified time in the future HD DVD might attain the technical capabilities that BD has currently?

Probably before BD attain the technical capabilities that HD DVD has currently

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post #739 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

So you are saying that there is a very slight possibility that at some unspecified time in the future HD DVD might attain the technical capabilities that BD has currently?

You clearly misread my username and that of the linked posts. I am not saying anything. I am providing information relevant to the exchange I quoted in my post within the context of the "rumor thread", nothing more nothing less. Your purpose?
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post #740 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

So you are saying that there is a very slight possibility that at some unspecified time in the future HD DVD might attain the technical capabilities that BD has currently?

Scary. HD DVD holds more data, and has same bandwidth as BR.
With HD DVD PiP and Internet connectivity on ALL players and EVERYONE would finally agree! There would be no more reason for Blu-Ray, right?

Sure its a big IF, but HD DVD would be superior in every way.
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post #741 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Scary. HD DVD holds more data, and has same bandwidth as BR.
With HD DVD PiP and Internet connectivity on ALL players and EVERYONE would finally agree! There would be no more reason for Blu-Ray, right?

Sure its a big IF, but HD DVD would be superior in every way.

YYYEEEESSSSSS!!!

Increase capacity, but more importantly bandwidth so there is no longer need for a "war".
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post #742 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Scary. HD DVD holds more data, and has same bandwidth as BR.
With HD DVD PiP and Internet connectivity on ALL players and EVERYONE would finally agree! There would be no more reason for Blu-Ray, right?

Sure its a big IF, but HD DVD would be superior in every way.

And when can we expect all this to come to pass?
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post #743 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

YYYEEEESSSSSS!!!

Increase capacity, but more importantly bandwidth so there is no longer need for a "war".

Or better yet, just go with blu-ray, they already have the space and bandwidth...there you go, no war.
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post #744 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BagMan View Post

Or better yet, just go with blu-ray, they already have the space and bandwidth...there you go, no war.

I could deal with that too!! )
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post #745 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BagMan View Post

Or better yet, just go with blu-ray, they already have the space and bandwidth...there you go, no war.

Sounds good to me!
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post #746 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Sorry talk - I don't believe you unless you post proof, as you have posted opinion as fact too often.

Sorry, RD, next time I'll try to provide a conference call dial-in number so you can listen in.
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When the Superbowl Half Time Party is sponsored by Michelob, it means it's paid for by Michelob. It means the same thing in almost every application of the term and I think you are just posting the above in the belief that everyone will just believe you because you say so.

Are you kidding me? You think the "Disney Magical Blu-ray Tour" is entirely paid for by Panasonic? You really stretch your already wafer-thin credibility with this one.
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Why do you think that Panasonic sponsoring the tour reflects Disney in a negative light???

The reality is that Disney is spending millions on this, a clear show of commitment to the format. Your implication is that Panasonic is the only one making a financial commitment here.
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How is it we are supposed to believe you were in these meetings, when you say in previous posts that you have no knowledge of BDA activities.

Please provide a single link where I stated or implied I have "no knowledge of BDA activities". I said I had no knowledge of one or two specific items I was asked about. I participate at all levels of the BDA and will likely be aware of virtually any official BDA business. In this case, however, the Disney mall tour is not BDA business; I know the details as a result of my company being given the opportunity to serve as a sponsor. Sorry that I'm unwilling to share the sponsorship proposal with you in order to provide the "proof" you demand (which is particularly ironic considering your penchant for stating incorrect information as fact).

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post #747 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BagMan View Post

Or better yet, just go with blu-ray, they already have the space and bandwidth...there you go, no war.

And you get the scratch resistant discs.
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post #748 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

So you've never heard of RCA, Onkyo, Integra?

RCA = rebranded Toshiba (and no longer in the market)
Onkyo = upgraded Toshiba.
Integra = upgraded Onkyo = upgraded Toshiba.

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post #749 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Wow! below $400!

How about the $199 Venturer HD DVD player? That doesn't count?

As a name-brand player? No, it doesn't count as name-brand. Have any retailers even confirmed they'll carry it?

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post #750 of 1560 Old 09-11-2007, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Scary. HD DVD holds more data, and has same bandwidth as BR.

If TL51 proves compatible with existing players;
And if TL51 spec includes bandwidth increase;
And if bandwidth increase is compatible with existing players (very unlikely);
And if TL51 proves economically manufacturable.

And then you'll still be ignoring HD DVD's failures with regards to recordability (which TL51 has no impact on).

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