Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread IV: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 102 - AVS Forum
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post #3031 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Studios will clearly mark features which require player support which may not be provided by all players. This is the intent of the "Bonus View" terminology.

Talk,

Is there a 'Bonus View' logo? Or 'First Standard Profile' logo? How will consumers know if the player they are buying supports the Standard Profile or not?
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post #3032 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Yes, general purpose TV browsers are a very difficult proposition. I'm not talking about putting a general purpose browser on a Blu-ray disc, I'm talking about a studio putting a browser on the disc in order to access "walled garden" content intended for viewing only by the Blu-ray community.

He, I am glad we are finishing the year with the two of us agreeing on something

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A browser in that it is designed around markup standards, but not one which can handle existing HTML content in any reasonable form.

Existing HTML? I thought we just agreed that such a browser is not for existing content but especially created walled garden for an HD optical player persumably for extension of its custom created interactivity/menu. If so, then HDi can easily be authored as web pages are today and get there much faster and easier. In contrast, a BD-J based browser to simulate the same would run much slower because you are going through another layer or abstraction/translation which HDi is not be subjected to as it natively gets executed from the web.

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post #3033 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Hi Amir,

Nearly a year ago you and I had an exchange in this Insider's thread regarding Meridian's plans for an HD DVD player. I said

You have long memory .


Quote:


It's been almost a year now and since you seem to be pretty much the only source for this information will you please give us an update?

Actually I was not. They issued a press release with us. And subsequent to arguments here about it really being announced, their founder, Bob Stewart came and registered just to say it was so: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1639

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Originally Posted by MeridianHQ View Post

Just to clear this up:

1) Amir's statements at CES regarding Meridian were correct.
....
4) We apologise that a member of our CES crew did not have the whole story and made comments that caused confusion.

However, and to stem any ongoing discussion, please note that Meridian has a general policy not to pre-announce specific models, price ranges, availability or feature sets for any of the several product categories we have in regular development.

Quote:


Are they still planning to create an HD DVD player? When? Will it be HD DVD only or a combo?

I really can't comment on other company products. Per above, Meridian is very sensitive to such data being released. Being retired, I no longer have a method to get their progress report anyway. So perhaps better follow up is with other Microsoft insiders.

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post #3034 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Comparing historical PS2 or other console usage for DVD isn't particularly relevant to PS3/Blu-ray usage. The PS3 is the most capable Blu-ray player, as well as one of the least expensive. There is no question that there are many HDM buyers who bought a PS3 exclusively for use as a Blu-ray player. The same was generally not true of the PS2, other than perhaps for the brief period of time where it was one of the least expensive (but never most capable) DVD players.

Isn't it possible that the PS3 will be the least expensive and most capable player for only a brief period of time? Prices for standalones are coming down rapidly, and we are already starting to see features in standalones that the PS3 cannot match (e.g. bitstream output of advanced audio formats or 5.1 analog outs). Do you think the PS3 will continue to dominate the Blu-ray market as it currently does in the long run?
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post #3035 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Comparing historical PS2 or other console usage for DVD isn't particularly relevant to PS3/Blu-ray usage. The PS3 is the most capable Blu-ray player, as well as one of the least expensive. There is no question that there are many HDM buyers who bought a PS3 exclusively for use as a Blu-ray player. The same was generally not true of the PS2, other than perhaps for the brief period of time where it was one of the least expensive (but never most capable) DVD players.

I disagree. I see no real difference in the PS3-for-BD scenario and the PS2-for-DVD scenario.

PS3 is cheaper and more easily available than almost any BD CE player, as was the PS2 in its day. It is true that the performace of the PS3 kicks the ass of all the CE players (esp BD-J) and feature-wise too, but for the format to succeed in the long term that has to change eventually.

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post #3036 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

That would be Via Licensing, which hasn't folded up shop but was in fact the licensing body for the specification which I referred to in my patent pool post. Few were happy with the outcome of that pool.

sorry, i was referring to their AVC program folding up shop...the licensors in that program submitted their patents for possible inclusion in mpegla's program

were you involved in this avc program at via licensing?
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post #3037 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Pennell View Post

I disagree. I see no real difference in the PS3-for-BD scenario and the PS2-for-DVD scenario.

PS3 is cheaper and more easily available than almost any BD CE player, as was the PS2 in its day. It is true that the performace of the PS3 kicks the ass of all the CE players (esp BD-J) and feature-wise too, but for the format to succeed in the long term that has to change eventually.

I had the PS2 and now have the PS3. I viewed the PS2 as a game machine that did a mediocre job of playing DVDs and I view the PS3 as a multimedia center that does an excellent job of playing Blu-ray discs and can also play games. Why don't you try one yourself you might like it. How do you view the Xbox360 with tje HD-DVD add-on? Are you not also attempting to sell it as a multimedia center as well as a game machine.
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post #3038 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post

I had the PS2 and now have the PS3. I viewed the PS2 as a game machine that did a mediocre job of playing DVDs and I view the PS3 as a multimedia center that does an excellent job of playing Blu-ray discs and can also play games. Why don't you try one yourself you might like it. How do you view the Xbox360 with tje HD-DVD add-on? Are you not also attempting to sell it as a multimedia center as well as a game machine.

I do not have a 360, but I find the PS3 media access combersome. I woud think that most people think of it as a game machine first and foremost. I keep asking if that bother the studios since many articles have been written blaming the booming game industry for the stagnating and now declining DVD market.

Besides Sony are there any studios that would be happy with 70-90% of next gen DVD players being primarily game consoles?
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post #3039 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 05:09 PM
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roger dressler,

when a player is capable of only 2ch dd-thd decoding, how exactly is it getting this 2ch output? does it actually decode the entire dd-thd track?

on hd dvd, is there in fact a core to the dd-thd track that can be decoded by a standard dd decoder? i know that on bd there is no core but a separate standard dd track but not sure about hd dvd as this seems to have gone back and forth in the past.
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post #3040 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 06:43 PM
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Perhaps Talk or if there is any PS3 expert will know, any plan that the PS3 will recognize an iPod for something other then an external storage devise? It would be nice to connect it and be able to scroll through the play lists or songs and artist listings. Instead I can only scroll into the individual folders to find files but they are in no meaning full order to play.
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post #3041 of 4687 Old 12-23-2007, 06:56 PM
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Insiders,

Why did the HD DVD PRG announce Warners numbers for Harry Potter? Shouldn't WB be doing that themselves? If BR Harry Potters outsold the HD DVD versions, why didn't the BDA announce that?
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post #3042 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 05:38 AM
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This question is for Talk or any other Blu-Ray insider. Will it ever be possible with a firware update for the PS3 to pass DTS MA or Dolby HD bitstream to a receiver?
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post #3043 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Studios will clearly mark features which require player support which may not be provided by all players. This is the intent of the "Bonus View" terminology.

Talk, has there been some change on this?

When I earlier asked about this subject, it appeared that there was no set requirement for this. Some studios might use "Bonus View", some might use "Final Standard Profile", some might opt to not say anything at all. It was optional.

Is there some requirement or commitment now that studios will indeed clearly mark such features?

Thanks.

-Steve
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post #3044 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 07:57 AM
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True-HD has a totally separate lossless 2-channel down mix 'embedded' within it that can either be created by the encoder or by the engineer. That way, a 2-channel True-HD decoder doesn't have to decode all the (5 or 7) channels just to get the 2-channel mix.

Here's a document from Dolby on how True-HD and E-AC3 (DD+) work on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.
http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech...whitepaper.pdf

Ty C. :-)
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post #3045 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

True-HD has a totally separate lossless 2-channel down mix 'embedded' within it that can either be created by the encoder or by the engineer. That way, a 2-channel True-HD decoder doesn't have to decode all the (5 or 7) channels just to get the 2-channel mix.

Here's a document from Dolby on how True-HD and E-AC3 (DD+) work on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.
http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech...whitepaper.pdf

i appreciate your attempt to explain my earlier question, however, i do not see that paper as stating there is a separate 2-ch downmix already on disc thereby not requiring decoding of the multi-channel presentation.

roger dressler, could you please clarify...

TIA
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post #3046 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 09:17 AM
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To any HD DVD insider: Will the mandatory TrueHD 2.0 decoding ability on all certified HD DVD players be amended to make TrueHD 5.1 decoding mandatory at some point, or will it always remain 2.0?

Please feel free to visit MidnightWatcher's Blogspot or follow my NEWS feed on Twitter.
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post #3047 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover View Post

i appreciate your attempt to explain my earlier question, however, i do not see that paper as stating there is a separate 2-ch downmix already on disc thereby not requiring decoding of the multi-channel presentation.

roger dressler, could you please clarify...

TIA

I can confirrm that also, having had my team implement decoding of the same on 360 . There is indeed no "5.1" encode in TrueHD. It is built up from layers of lower number of channels. So you get to decode as many channels as you need, and once you get to 5.1, you have all the channels you need. Pretty clever.....

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post #3048 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I can confirrm that also, having had my team implement decoding of the same on 360 . There is indeed no "5.1" encode in TrueHD. It is built up from layers of lower number of channels. So you get to decode as many channels as you need, and once you get to 5.1, you have all the channels you need. Pretty clever.....

thanks amir...

my apologies to disclord, i now see that the figure i quickly glanced at was the encoding process...i had thought it was showing the decoding and therefore didn't see how the paper indicated that a separate 2ch mix was already on disc.
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post #3049 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Doesn't it make sense that studios don't like seeing the vast majority of next gen DVD players being game consoles...since the primary purpose of them is to play games?

In general the primary purpose of the PS3 is for playing games, but there's really no question that a sizable group of PS3 owners have bought it solely for it's media center capabilities, and are unlikely to ever buy a game. I don't recall there ever having been another game console which had an equally compelling non-gaming application. Ultimately the proof is in the pudding - how many movies are selling? A PS3 owner buying three movies a month generates just as much revenue for them as does a Pioneer owner buying three movies a month...

- Talk

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post #3050 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:07 PM
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Well OTOH IF reasonably priced dual format players become readily avaliable SOON, then the excuse for sitting out on the sideline disappears and consumers no longer need to worry about a format war and studios can release on either. The market can then decide things, not studio collusion/cartels!

I hope this actually happens rather than reading all the cheerleading and propoganda wars for the next 18 months!

Arent DF players a significant threat to BD exclusive CEM's and studios?

Although I already have both format SAL players, my next olayer WILL be a DF unit-99.99999999999% gauranteed. This wont happen though until the BD CEM straighten up their act and offer 2.0 or whatever is the final profile players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

This argument ignores the very clear point that a very large percentage of consumers (more than 60% by most surveys) are simply sitting this out for fear of picking the "wrong" format. Unless all studios went neutral with equivalent support for both formats (very unlikely Sony would) consumers will still have to make a choice, and many will simply choose neither. Warner going exclusive would likely generate far more revenue in non-participating consumers joining the party than in the relatively modest number of consumers they'd "miss" in the format they don't support, especially going forward in time.

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post #3051 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

In general the primary purpose of the PS3 is for playing games, but there's really no question that a sizable group of PS3 owners have bought it solely for it's media center capabilities, and are unlikely to ever buy a game. I don't recall there ever having been another game console which had an equally compelling non-gaming application. Ultimately the proof is in the pudding - how many movies are selling? A PS3 owner buying three movies a month generates just as much revenue for them as does a Pioneer owner buying three movies a month...

- Talk

Perhaps, but a Pioneer player isn't subsidized to the same level as a PS3 is, or is it? There has been much discussion that the PS3 Subsidy is 'okay' because it follows the standard model of a Game Console and Sony would make back it's money on Games. If a sizable group of PS3 owners bought it solely as a media center and aren't going to buy games, is this truly what Sony wanted? Put differently, Toshiba has been put down for following this model on a non-gaming platform. What is your definition of sizable? If it's large enough, then it's possible that there are enough PS3's that fit this description as there are Toshiba Standalones, no? How are the other CE's to compete with this model?

If the proof is in the pudding, as you suggest, are the Studios really happy with the current attach rates?
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post #3052 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:29 PM
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[quote=jdg345;12578897]Perhaps, but a Pioneer player isn't subsidized to the same level as a PS3 is, or is it? There has been much discussion that the PS3 Subsidy is 'okay' because it follows the standard model of a Game Console and Sony would make back it's money on Games.

QUOTE]

I purchased a PS3 two weeks ago as what I perceived to be the best BD player out there and the one most likely to be able to be updated the longest--at least to Profile 2.0. OTOH, if Sony is setting their target for the PS3 to be mainly a gaming platform, they need to (A) have LOTS more games out there similar to the selection for the XBox and (B) somehow allow lower MAP pricing on their games to push sales. We have two games for our PS3 thanks to a poor selection and high pricing of the games. BUT--the PS3 does BD movies, games and media machine functions very well.

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post #3053 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Is there a 'Bonus View' logo? Or 'First Standard Profile' logo?

Bonus View.
Quote:


How will consumers know if the player they are buying supports the Standard Profile or not?

By looking at the specs, the same way they determine if a given player or AVR has native TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, bitstream support, or such.

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post #3054 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

Isn't it possible that the PS3 will be the least expensive and most capable player for only a brief period of time? Prices for standalones are coming down rapidly, and we are already starting to see features in standalones that the PS3 cannot match (e.g. bitstream output of advanced audio formats or 5.1 analog outs). Do you think the PS3 will continue to dominate the Blu-ray market as it currently does in the long run?

No, I absolutely think the PS3 will make an increasingly smaller slice of the dedicated BD playback market. As future standalone players gain more capabilities (i.e. Bonus View and BD Live support), better performance (due to newer chipsets), and lower prices (since they don't carry the extra PS3 hardware costs such as Wifi/Bluetooth, Cell, or a hard drive), only those interested in the gaming or media center capabilities of the PS3 are likely to buy it as their primary player.

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post #3055 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BenDover View Post

were you involved in this avc program at via licensing?

Nope.

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post #3056 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jdc115 View Post

Perhaps Talk or if there is any PS3 expert will know, any plan that the PS3 will recognize an iPod for something other then an external storage devise? It would be nice to connect it and be able to scroll through the play lists or songs and artist listings. Instead I can only scroll into the individual folders to find files but they are in no meaning full order to play.

I'd be surprised if the PS3 gains any native iPod capabilities, given that Sony and Apple are natural rivals in the media player market. I'd expect the PS3's media playback capabilities (i.e. playlist options) to continue to be enhanced through future firmware updates, however.

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post #3057 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

This question is for Talk or any other Blu-Ray insider. Will it ever be possible with a firware update for the PS3 to pass DTS MA or Dolby HD bitstream to a receiver?

I'm told by a Sony contact (not in the Playstation group) that it's likely the current hardware design doesn't support bitstream output.

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post #3058 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Talk, has there been some change on this?

When I earlier asked about this subject, it appeared that there was no set requirement for this. Some studios might use "Bonus View", some might use "Final Standard Profile", some might opt to not say anything at all. It was optional.

Is there some requirement or commitment now that studios will indeed clearly mark such features?

No change, the use of the Bonus View terminology/logo is still optional, and the studios are still committed to ensuring that consumers are aware that certain features may not play on all players.[/quote]

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post #3059 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Well OTOH IF reasonably priced dual format players become readily avaliable SOON, then the excuse for sitting out on the sideline disappears and consumers no longer need to worry about a format war and studios can release on either. The market can then decide things, not studio collusion/cartels!

I continue to submit that dual format players don't solve anything; they just burden the consumer, the studios, and the retailers with the costs of supporting two formats at a cost of innovation and price competitiveness.
Quote:


Arent DF players a significant threat to BD exclusive CEM's and studios?

Until/unless one comes out which has comparable performance to a BD player at a reasonable price I'd say there's little-to-no threat.

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post #3060 of 4687 Old 12-24-2007, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Perhaps, but a Pioneer player isn't subsidized to the same level as a PS3 is, or is it?

I've seen no indication Pioneer players are subsidized.
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There has been much discussion that the PS3 Subsidy is 'okay' because it follows the standard model of a Game Console and Sony would make back it's money on Games. If a sizable group of PS3 owners bought it solely as a media center and aren't going to buy games, is this truly what Sony wanted?

It's a double-edged sword - Sony certainly won't see the sort of revenue return in gaming license fees for PS3's sold to those who primarily use it as a Blu-ray player than the traditional game console business model has supported. On the other hand, Sony is probably the single company who stands to gain the most by Blu-ray's success (since they participate in all aspects of the business, from players to content to authoring to replication), so ultimately every Blu-ray player sold is still to their benefit.
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How are the other CE's to compete with this model?

There are many drawbacks to the PS3 relative to standalone players (lack of analog support, lack of easy remote integration, game console "stigma", lack of front panel display, form factor, etc.). For a $300+ price difference many consumers were happy to put up with those drawbacks. Now that we're routinely seeing standalones at a price below that of the PS3 and as standalone capabilities increase standalones become a more compelling option relative to the standalones.
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If the proof is in the pudding, as you suggest, are the Studios really happy with the current attach rates?

I contend that the PS3 makes attach rates far less useful a number than total format sales.

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