HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 746 Old 03-12-2008, 05:57 AM
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I only watched a few minutes of Gattaca last night, with all the releases yesterday, but it looked like there was pretty serious EE.
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post #272 of 746 Old 03-12-2008, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Yes. It's visible. Now I agree but to what extent will this be noticeable during live action ?

I think dozens of people have pointed it out during playback. Many asserted it was intentional and simply a byproduct of the animation style used (!). Or they implied it was caused by an uncalibrated LCD screen, you know those types right?

It isn't the size of the disk that counts, but how you use it.

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post #273 of 746 Old 03-12-2008, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Yes. It's visible. Now I agree but to what extent will this be noticeable during live action ?

Using my viewing sets they are noticeable.
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post #274 of 746 Old 03-12-2008, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I'm confused. What exactly do you think that the VP would be doing to "hide" ringing?

I would say that most VPs have image enhancement features that include removing noise and artifacts to name a few. I dont know exactly how Crystalio calls it for that matter.
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post #275 of 746 Old 03-12-2008, 08:29 AM
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I watched The Simpsons. It does have slight EE which is noticeable at my normal viewing distance (13.5 feet from 123" diagonal screen).

I don't know if people are using the terms "ringing" and EE interchangeably, but it looked like typical EE to me, and again, it was slight. I didn't notice any ringing.
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post #276 of 746 Old 03-13-2008, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I watched The Simpsons. It does have slight EE which is noticeable at my normal viewing distance (13.5 feet from 123" diagonal screen).

I don't know if people are using the terms "ringing" and EE interchangeably, but it looked like typical EE to me, and again, it was slight. I didn't notice any ringing.

Simpsons has ringing, not regular EE (regular as in white/black haloes wider than 1 pixel).
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post #277 of 746 Old 03-13-2008, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I would say that most VPs have image enhancement features that include removing noise and artifacts to name a few. I dont know exactly how Crystalio calls it for that matter.

If a general VP filter removes the ringing it also removes genuine picture detail. To remove the ringing and leave the picture alone you would need a precise inverse filter for the filter applied which caused the ringing. This filter may not be invertible so the ringing can't be removed without messing with real picture detail.
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post #278 of 746 Old 03-13-2008, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Simpsons has ringing, not regular EE (regular as in white/black haloes wider than 1 pixel).

Well, it was a halo around hard edges, so it looked like EE to me.

Define ringing.
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post #279 of 746 Old 03-14-2008, 10:35 AM
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I think when people speak of edge enhancement and ringing they usually refer to the same thing.
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post #280 of 746 Old 03-14-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paku View Post

I think when people speak of edge enhancement and ringing they usually refer to the same thing.

But apparently some view the terms as having different meanings; it would be educational for the rest of us to have the difference explained.
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post #281 of 746 Old 03-15-2008, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

But apparently some view the terms as having different meanings; it would be educational for the rest of us to have the difference explained.

Both refer to the visible effects of frequency manipulation (boosting). Ringing creates ghost images of edges, one or more. Standard EE rather creates thicker/harder edges with pronounced white or black outlines.
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post #282 of 746 Old 03-15-2008, 03:30 AM
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Can a movie with unintended crushed blacks be on the list? There have been reports of the German version of Pan's Labyrinth suffering from clipped shadows. I also suspect POTC: CotBP to be clipped in quite a few shots as well. Check out Xylon's pics. The dvd seems to have less shadow detail in this shot though. Go figure.

Of course we can't forget Bram Stocker's Dracula. The king of botched shadow detail.
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post #283 of 746 Old 03-15-2008, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Both refer to the visible effects of frequency manipulation (boosting). Ringing creates ghost images of edges, one or more. Standard EE rather creates thicker/harder edges with pronounced white or black outlines.

Thanks for the explanation. If someone could provide images (or links) illustrating the difference, that would really help to be able to identify when we are seeing ringing and when we are seeing EE.
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post #284 of 746 Old 03-16-2008, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Can a movie with unintended crushed blacks be on the list?.

Please, no, because crushed blacks in some shots are not a technical fault per se. Without confirmation from the film makers that it is wrong we can never be sure what is intended and what is not. That leads only to endless speculation and bickering. It belongs on another list if people are interested in that. Same as color grading choices.
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post #285 of 746 Old 03-16-2008, 03:06 PM
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Yeah, but if a version of [insert title] has crushed blacks and the other versions do not then that is clearly a screwup.
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post #286 of 746 Old 03-17-2008, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Yeah, but if a version of [insert title] has crushed blacks and the other versions do not then that is clearly a screwup.

They can't both show the film makers intentions at a given time. But which is right and did someone change its mind? Who knows...
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post #287 of 746 Old 03-21-2008, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

The Fifth Element (remaster)
Disc:
BD, USA
Problem: incorrect Inverse Telecine (IVTC), EE
Time Codes: IVTC: 00:29:55 - look at the backs of the police uniforms. EE: throughout.
Comments: Incorrect inverse telecine of 1080i source material causes Combing, will get picture soon.
URLs: Soon

I don't see any combing at all.

EE is the most noticeable during vfx shots (probably in the negative). In non-vfx shots it's a little worse than The Matrix.
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post #288 of 746 Old 03-25-2008, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

I only watched a few minutes of Gattaca last night, with all the releases yesterday, but it looked like there was pretty serious EE.

+1

It is pretty bad, I also think that DNR is a problem in certain scenes
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post #289 of 746 Old 03-25-2008, 04:44 AM
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Sounds like they used an old transfer, or the new transfer is seriously screwed up.
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post #290 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 01:11 AM
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I am very curious especially in the case of pans labirynth most of you were angry at the DNR, no doubt it was a little much but the movie to me looked tier 1. Now I look at a title like 300 and the distracting film grain made the video seem unclean and distracting.

Why are people so against improving the picture by post processing, I started in home theater with scalers and post processors to tweak to make better quality picture? Im maybe not understanding this. But I come from a post processing background from dvdo to silicon optix, where I have always tweaked different aligrothams to improve picture. Noise to me is like dirt on a window, so is film grain, I want to see a movie with a clean clear view.

I dont get the complaining, sure the dnr on pans might have not been the best as the faces seemed soft and waxy but I noticed this in curse of the golden flower to, but if there was grain and little noise artifacts I promise I would have been just as annoyed and distracted watching the film.
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post #291 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 01:22 AM
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Not for people at AVS. Most of us understand film.

Grain and all.

They can shove that DNR and EE to the collective J6P. They won't know any better.


"OMGWTFBBQ!!! Why is there still black bars on my Blu-ray!"
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post #292 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 01:57 AM
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You lose detail. Who wants less detail in their HD content?

300 is an extreme example, btw. Most recent films don't have that much grain.
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post #293 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 02:41 AM
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DNR take away some of that high definition, Why would anyone want their HD films less HD?
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post #294 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 02:46 AM
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Did you see the insignificant amount of detail that was removed, nothing you would notice unless staring at still picks. If that person did not even bring up the thread with still picks, which was even hard to notice in still pictures, alot of you would not have even noticed. I can say I love a clean picture. And I will always tweak my video to improve the quality. Yes to much tweaking is never good, but a little bit can really help the picture.

And even though you speak for avs forum, alot of us in video processing area have done this for years.

Silicon optix realta, and dvdo has unreal noise reduction, cadence detection, deinterlacing with very little that improves any picture.

I honestly think some of you are avs purisits, but some of you are new and unfamiliar with how important and how good post processing can be and have never looked at the video processing forum.

You just hear post processing and think someone tainted your film and become offended.
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post #295 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 02:53 AM
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Not to mention films are not always flagged properly, the untouched film is not always best.
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post #296 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 02:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I dont get the complaining, sure the dnr on pans might have not been the best as the faces seemed soft and waxy,

You just answered your own question with the above comment.

If i wanted to see waxworks i'd buy House of Wax or visit Madame Tussauds.
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post #297 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 02:59 AM
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But the point was obviously would you rather see the grain and dirt on the picture, and as mentioned there was only a small amount of detail removed you could only see in still frames,The grain versions were not quite as bad but still looked somewhat soft and waxy, except with grain over it to which just distracted me to.
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post #298 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 03:06 AM
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If the subtle grain was there in the master then it should have been there to an extent on the Blu-ray. Grain structure retention is of paramount importance to the overall definition of the picture. Removal of grain in excess can result in loss of texture details.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #299 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Silicon optix realta, and dvdo has unreal noise reduction, cadence detection, deinterlacing with very little that improves any picture.

That's where the disconnect is. Noise reduction and edge enhancement post-processing in today's video processors are commonly applied by people like me to SD DVDs only, because SD DVD is already a much less than ideal source. SD DVDs are commonly packed with edge halos and noise other than grain that look terrible when scaled to the native resolution of our displays.

There should be no need to apply these techniques to Blu-ray movies, where high frequency details and film grain ought to be faithfully captured from the get-go.

Those who want DNR or excessive edge enhancement on their BDs should invest in one of these processors so the studios don't do it before delivery. That would be win-win.
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post #300 of 746 Old 03-28-2008, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

That's where the disconnect is. Noise reduction and edge enhancement post-processing in today's video processors are commonly applied by people like me to SD DVDs only, because SD DVD is already a much less than ideal source. SD DVDs are commonly packed with edge halos and noise other than grain that look terrible when scaled to the native resolution of our displays.

There should be no need to apply these techniques to Blu-ray movies, where high frequency details and film grain ought to be faithfully captured from the get-go.

Those who want DNR or excessive edge enhancement on their BDs should invest in one of these processors so the studios don't do it before delivery. That would be win-win.

Thank you.


Horrible DNR and EE list stickified thread with *PIX* to illustrate WTH are we talking about



Pan's Labyrinth comparison *PIX* between DNR "waxy look" loss of DETAIL against non-DNR fine detail preserved with grain intact

You tell me, you tell me with a straight face ANYONE will even consider the US release version is acceptable or improved over the EU version.

Do you want that in your high defintion movies? Anyone?
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