HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 746 Old 11-17-2007, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Hmm. I thought 2001 was EE free? Uh oh.

At least it does look better than the HDNet version with it's strong halos, but not by a lot:


Can we get a proper transfer of 2001 without EE or softness? Jeez, it's 70mm.

These images look like they've been manipulated, there are no halos around the glass or table when I look at the screen capture on my LCD monitor?
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post #32 of 746 Old 11-17-2007, 11:39 PM
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Those are from captures of the broadcast HD version shown on HDNet. Should've been more clear, sorry.
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post #33 of 746 Old 11-18-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Hmm. I thought 2001 was EE free? Uh oh.

At least it does look better than the HDNet version with it's strong halos, but not by a lot:


Can we get a proper transfer of 2001 without EE or softness? Jeez, it's 70mm.

Those are grabs of the HDNet version, right? The HD DVD is nothing like as bad.

Regarding the glowing on the HD DVD of "2001" (it's there,all right), can any people with knowledge of the filming process tell us - is there any way this could be an optical/lens effect and not a fault of the video transfer?

David Mackenzie
DVD/BD Compressionist/Author
Reviewer & Tech Consultant, HDTVtest
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post #34 of 746 Old 11-18-2007, 06:29 PM
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To make it easier:

<-HDNet Broadcast / HD-DVD/BRD->

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post #35 of 746 Old 11-18-2007, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Going by the list so far it seems Universal is the king of putting out old transfers with excessive EE and not all of them have been confirmed yet. Going by early accounts Tremors belongs up there as well.

Do any of these titles have EE or DNR?

Dazed and Confused

Fast Times at Ridgemont High

Yes, both of these titles have EE on the HD DVD version. In fact, all three SD releases of Dazed and Confused show EE. The HD DVD is better, but it's still very apparent. I'm sorry I have no way to do screen caps, and am not near my player to give you time codes. Same with FTaRH. If someone who can grab caps has either of these, its fairly easy to spot throughout.
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post #36 of 746 Old 11-18-2007, 08:37 PM
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Just watched Bulletproof. Loaded with EE from the get go.

Title: Bulletproof
Studio: Universal
Disc: HD DVD
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: EE is visible throughout.
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post #37 of 746 Old 11-19-2007, 12:09 AM
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Why does it seem like most of these Universal catalog titles were done at the same time and on the same equipment? Compare the PQ of Mallrats to The Big Lebowski. About the same detail, same EE/Ringing.

I'm surprised Dragonheart, Daylight, and Dante's Peak haven't been brought up yet as their broadcast HD versions looked pretty lousy.
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post #38 of 746 Old 11-19-2007, 08:09 AM
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I agree with DH. While I was surprised how good it looked for the age of the film I did find it edgy. Mallrats was terrible, tons of EE. So sad because it could have been a real winner with all its colors.
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post #39 of 746 Old 11-19-2007, 11:34 AM
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A few quick solid contenders for this thread due to EE.
hese are from my collection. I have more but I want to re visit them again before before listing them as possible contenders.


Title: Top Gun
Studio: Paramount
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticeable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:

Title: Seed of Chucky
Studio: Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticeable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:

Title: Army of Darkness
Studio: Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticeable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:

Title: Nutty Professor
Studio:Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:


Title: Half Baked
Studio:Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:


Title: Fast Times at Ridgemont High
Studio:Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:


Title: Mutiny on the Bounty (1962)
Studio:Warner
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticable EE ringing throughout film.
URL:
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post #40 of 746 Old 11-20-2007, 07:56 AM
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Title: The Departed (2006)
Studio: Warner
Disc: BRD, HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: DNR
Time Codes: Chapter 33
Comments: Vertical wallpaper stripes disappear unnaturally when the camera pans. DNR is thought to be on the DI and not a compression issue.
URLs: 1a/1b, 2a/2b
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post #41 of 746 Old 11-20-2007, 09:59 AM
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I have two more offenders:

Title: Meet the parents
Studio:Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: probably an old transfer with noticeable EE throughout film. can provide timecodes, but i think it´s quite obvious
URL: -none-

Title: Erin Brockovich
Studio:Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: probably an old transfer with noticeable EE throughout film.
URL: -none- can provide timecodes, but i think it´s quite obvious. can provide timecodes, but i think it´s quite obvious

Please note, i have an older Marantz VP12S2 720p DLP and a Toshiba HD E1@720p (latest firmware), so maybe someone with newer/better equipment should double check. But i´m pretty certain about these two titles though.

The question is, though off-topic in this thread, what can we do about this? Write Universal? Not buy the movies?

dooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
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post #42 of 746 Old 11-20-2007, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

This is a list of titles on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray who have been verified to show EE/ringing (edge enhancement, sharpening) and/or DNR (digital noise/grain reduction) processing and/or aliasing and/or ITC issues (incorrect progressive picture from film source).

This list is for people who know what it is, what it looks like and have decided that they don't like it and want to avoid discs having (a lot of) it.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of sources elsewhere on the net that tell us if there is DNR and/or EE etc. with any kind of accuracy and reliability, title by title. This list is supposed to be such a source.

First, I agree for the need for a list like this . . . . as it helps keep the studio's collective feet to the fire. If nobody complains then they'll keep
putting out mediocre discs . . . . they are not altruists.

Second, I agree with the majority of listings here.

I would like to inject one thought into the discourse;

SOMETIMES HALOS ARE JUST HALOS . . . .

. . . . which is to say, sometimes they are not an electronic issue
and thereby sometimes not a wholly accurate indicator of the quality of a transfer.

Halos occur optically in nature around boundary areas of high contrast.

Our eyes can add halos, camera lenses can add halos,
diffusion filters DEFINITELY add halos, bad films prints add halos,
bad telecines add halos . . . and OF COURSE electronic edge enhancement
and white level push can add halos.

The worst case scenario is a combination of the above . . . . EE makes it
all much worse but again, there are often other culprits as well.

DNR can make optical halos -- IE halos ON THE FILM -- worse by
removing edge sharpness that could make the halo less defined . .

. . . and keep in mind that in general compression does not like
edges or contrast and tends to add noise around them.

So.

SOMETIMES HALOS ARE JUST HALOS . . . . not necessarily
an electronic problem.

Again, this is a really helpful list and I have used feedback like this to avoid buying certain discs . . . . I would add to please keep in mind the perspective that sometimes halos are naturally occurring optical phenomena . . . and sometimes halos are added for artistic intent . . . and sometimes
your eye adds halos.

These questions always want to asked AND ANSWERED by the studios but

SOMETIMES HALOS JUST AIN'T A PROBLEM. . . .

. . . so let's just watch the movie.

-30-

My veracity to comment comes from having worked in the camera department of one of the older films on this list. Alas, it is not as fabulous
a transfer as I would have wished . . . . but it does reasonably represent
the sense of the look of the film. The film used double fog filters thruout
-- a combo of a fog effect and a diffusion filter -- which definitely added
halos. The entire film was also post flashed which tends to add a bit of grain in the shadows.

Alas, another thing to keep in mind is that FILM IS FILM AND DIGITAL IS DIGITAL . . . . . and they don't always play well together.

I saw a 70 mm blowup of this film direct from the original 35 mm anamorphic negatives -- not from an IP -- and THAT my friends was
amazing. Yes, there were halos but they looked just great

Film Is NOT DEAD -- it is the Gold Standard against which all other formats are measured

Support ORIGINAL ASPECT RATIO
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post #43 of 746 Old 11-20-2007, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Title: The Departed (2006)
Studio: Warner
Disc: BRD, HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: DNR
Time Codes: Chapter 33
Comments: Vertical wallpaper stripes disappear unnaturally when the camera pans. DNR is thought to be on the DI and not a compression issue.
URLs: 1a/1b, 2a/2b

I've watched this scene many times, there's nothing "unnatural" about it. The camera is moving, and the background details are getting blurred as often happens during camera movement.

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post #44 of 746 Old 11-20-2007, 03:56 PM
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I'm guessing you're talking about THE DEER HUNTER and I agree, I don't see any "EE" in the screen shots linked.

Vincent

Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincelluloid View Post

...

My veracity to comment comes from having worked in the camera department of one of the older films on this list. Alas, it is not as fabulous
a transfer as I would have wished . . . . but it does reasonably represent
the sense of the look of the film. The film used double fog filters thruout
-- a combo of a fog effect and a diffusion filter -- which definitely added
halos. The entire film was also post flashed which tends to add a bit of grain in the shadows.

Alas, another thing to keep in mind is that FILM IS FILM AND DIGITAL IS DIGITAL . . . . . and they don't always play well together.

I saw a 70 mm blowup of this film direct from the original 35 mm anamorphic negatives -- not from an IP -- and THAT my friends was
amazing. Yes, there were halos but they looked just great

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post #45 of 746 Old 11-20-2007, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

I've watched this scene many times, there's nothing "unnatural" about it. The camera is moving, and the background details are getting blurred as often happens during camera movement.

They're not blurring, they're disappearing into mush. The effect is very smeary and not like photography at all.

As for The Deer Hunter slight EE is noticable at the top of these frames: http://david2k.orcon.net.nz/hddvd/The%20Deer%20Hunter/AnyC02807.jpg, http://david2k.orcon.net.nz/hddvd/Th.../AnyC02818.jpg. It doesn't ruin the transfer but it's there.
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post #46 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

They're not blurring, they're disappearing into mush. The effect is very smeary and not like photography at all.

I agree with that after checking the scene.
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post #47 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincelluloid View Post

SOMETIMES HALOS ARE JUST HALOS . . . .
. . . . which is to say, sometimes they are not an electronic issue
and thereby sometimes not a wholly accurate indicator of the quality of a transfer.

Yes. So everybody is welcome to discuss specific cases and dispute current findings preferably with direct digital screen shots of telling examples.
Especially insiders involved with the transfer in question can contribute valuable information if they are inclined to do so.
Quote:


I saw a 70 mm blowup of this film direct from the original 35 mm anamorphic negatives -- not from an IP -- and THAT my friends was
amazing. Yes, there were halos but they looked just great

My main criterion for judging a transfer is anyway if it looks like film when it's made from a film master. So first you need to be aware of how film looks (and it can look many ways, especially if digital components are baked into the 'film' look via DI), then how digital problems look, and finally separate the two layers from each other which is indeed often not easy.
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post #48 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 03:42 AM
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How about Elizabeth?. Just watched it last night. PQ is excellent, consistent and nothing too distracting.

There has got to be some recent Universal titles that dont have EE.
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post #49 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 06:09 AM
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How recent? Their newer titles generally look outstanding mostly because their DIs/transfers have been on state of the art equipment. It's the older catalog stuff that is really iffy because Universal seems to be unwilling to do new HD transfers. Slackers.
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post #50 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

How recent? Their newer titles generally look outstanding mostly because their DIs/transfers have been on state of the art equipment. It's the older catalog stuff that is really iffy because Universal seems to be unwilling to do new HD transfers. Slackers.

So, what's the excuse for the appearance of The Italian Job.
Hint, you might find it somewhere in this interview.
http://www.cameraguild.com/interview...transcript.htm
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post #51 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Especially insiders involved with the transfer in question can contribute valuable information if they are inclined to do so.

Sorry michel, this aint TIG.
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post #52 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

Sorry michel, this aint TIG.

Do they spill the beans there?
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post #53 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

How about Elizabeth?. Just watched it last night. PQ is excellent, consistent and nothing too distracting.
There has got to be some recent Universal titles that dont have EE.

Pride and Prejudice?
Elizabeth is pretty good but still obvious EE at times.
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post #54 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 09:23 AM
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So does this mean these are all movies you will not watch?
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post #55 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

So, what's the excuse for the appearance of The Italian Job.
Hint, you might find it somewhere in this interview.
http://www.cameraguild.com/interview...transcript.htm

Lousy transfer + EE = garbage. I'm sure the actual film looks good though.
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post #56 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 11:14 AM
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someone should confirm this, but

Title: Liar Liar (1997)
Studio: Universal
Dsic: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: An old transfer with noticeable EE ringing throughout film. Horrible looking.
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post #57 of 746 Old 11-21-2007, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Do they spill the beans there?

Only if one is an anonymous poster.
I thought you already knew that.
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post #58 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

Only if one is an anonymous poster.
I thought you already knew that.

I know people usually try hard to not talk badly about the work of others, if they talk at all. Omerta.
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post #59 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

So does this mean these are all movies you will not watch?

No. First I watch movies in the cinema too. Second one can rent or borrow. I try to not buy substandard stuff if I find out in time. Buying 'crap' promotes 'crap'.
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post #60 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

My main criterion for judging a transfer is anyway if it looks like film when it's made from a film master. So first you need to be aware of how film looks (and it can look many ways, especially if digital components are baked into the 'film' look via DI), then how digital problems look, and finally separate the two layers from each other which is indeed often not easy.

Bless you.

That post might be the single most perceptive, sensible and BALANCED -- and thereby HELPFUL -- statement regarding film transfers that I have read on this site.


In the spirit of full disclosure -- my display is a 9 inch CRT front projector - 106" screen -- which is much less
cranky about EE.

I would go so far to say that much EE artifacting is a result of fixed pixel displays . . which is NOT to say that it is the FAULT of
fixed pixel displays; it is made WORSE by fixed pixel and this is now a fixed pixel world.

Further, and from painful personal experience, I have found that early in the days of HD mastering CRT monitors
were the only thing available and we all used EE with relative impunity cuz we didn't see it artifacting on direct feed CRT. After a couple of
disasters showed up on fixed pixel displays I started using a fixed pixel monitor along with the CRT and, surprise,
using less EE . . . . and this was all for broadcast and soon after we found even MORE hidden artifacting disasters when stuff started getting compressed for DVD and the internet . . . . now most everybody will also take a look at the signal thru
real time compression to avoid problems.



Again, thanks "mhafner"

-30-





Go figure.

Film Is NOT DEAD -- it is the Gold Standard against which all other formats are measured

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