HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

They're not blurring, they're disappearing into mush. The effect is very smeary and not like photography at all.

As for The Deer Hunter slight EE is noticable at the top of these frames: http://david2k.orcon.net.nz/hddvd/The%20Deer%20Hunter/AnyC02807.jpg, http://david2k.orcon.net.nz/hddvd/Th.../AnyC02818.jpg. It doesn't ruin the transfer but it's there.

Whatever the cause, it's not an artifact of the transfer/HD compression, which I thought was the point of this thread- to point out compression and/or transfer flaws. This "problem" (which I personally still think looks like normal background blurring due to the camera movement myself) is also evident on the standard-definition DVD release, and also on the Russian PAL DVD which I have. The Russian DVD is notable because it's a completely separate transfer, having been mastered to 16:9 PAL from an actual 35mm anamorphic print (oval cigarette burns at the reel changes and all) as opposed to the DI, and it shows the EXACT SAME "disappearing into mush" of the verticle stripes on the wall as the HD-DVD and region 1 standard-definition DVDs. So clearly, this "error" was evident on the actual 35mm film prints, and thus must have also been present in the original DI used to create said prints and the domestic HD-DVD and DVD versions of the film.

Re: THE DEER HUNTER, sorry but I don't see any "EE" in those screen shots. If there's anything there that resembles "EE", I'm going with captaincelluloid's explanation. I don't think it's a transfer artifact at all.

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post #62 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 04:21 PM
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The thing is it is a transfer flaw even if it occured during the film-to-DI stage, which all versions are derived from, even a funky dvd from Russia.

IMO, the decision to apply DNR to reduce noise was poor as the motion artifacts are far more intrusive than any grain this scene might've had.
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post #63 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Hmm. I thought 2001 was EE free? Uh oh.

At least it does look better than the HDNet version with it's strong halos, but not by a lot:


Can we get a proper transfer of 2001 without EE or softness? Jeez, it's 70mm.

Unbelievable.

And I have heard nothing but rave reviews for this title.

That is as clear an example of EE as you will get.
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post #64 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The thing is it is a transfer flaw even if it occured during the film-to-DI stage, which all versions are derived from, even a funky dvd from Russia.

That is if it's a "flaw" at all. To my eyes, it looks like normal blurring caused by movement of the camera, and since it occurs in all versions of the film, it should not be labeled as a transfer flaw, PERIOD. Remember, early on this "flaw" was being used as ammo against the 'low bit rate VC1 encode', but the fact that it occurs in the Russian DVD that was transfered from an actual 35mm anamorphic film print proves that it has nothing to do with the codec- or bitrate thereof- at all.

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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Unbelievable.

And I have heard nothing but rave reviews for this title.

That is as clear an example of EE as you will get.

As has been pointed out time and time again, these screen shots are from an older HD broadcast version of 2001, NOT the HD-DVD or BD versions.

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post #65 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 09:07 PM
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"That is as clear an example of EE as you will get." --Rob Tomlin

Yes, in the screen shot shown above, some halos are clearly evident. However, after viewing the same scene in question again just now on HD DVD, in motion and in pause, and sticking my face about two inches from the screen to examine it, the ee on my screen is nowhere near as severe as pictured here. And from my normal viewing distance of about six feet, it's impossible to see it. What's more, my colleague who reviewed the Blu-ray edition (on his system across country from me) makes no mention whatever of edge enhancement, and gives the video a 10/10. (I noticed some slight flutterings here and there and some occasional color bleed-through, hardly noticeable, and I gave the video a 9/10.) Anyway, I would question where these screen shots came from, how the person's set was calibrated, and so on, before I would believe the ee was as bad as the pictures on this page make it look.

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post #66 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

That is if it's a "flaw" at all. To my eyes, it looks like normal blurring caused by movement of the camera, and since it occurs in all versions of the film, it should not be labeled as a transfer flaw, PERIOD. Remember, early on this "flaw" was being used as ammo against the 'low bit rate VC1 encode', but the fact that it occurs in the Russian DVD that was transfered from an actual 35mm anamorphic film print proves that it has nothing to do with the codec- or bitrate thereof- at all.

Mhafner probably can explain it better but I think this thread is about DNR and EE flaws visible in the final product. Since the unusual quality of this particular scene in The Departed is pretty evident on the disc it should be on the list or at least noted.

There's no argument here that's it's not a compression issue and that it exists on the master DI.
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post #67 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Unbelievable.

And I have heard nothing but rave reviews for this title.

That is as clear an example of EE as you will get.

Yeah, that looks bad. I'm going to rent it and check it out for myself. It seems odd that it got such great reviews.
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post #68 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Yeah, that looks bad. I'm going to rent it and check it out for myself. It seems odd that it got such great reviews.

Did you even read this whole thread? To repeat yet again, the 2001 screen shots in question ARE NOT FROM THE HD-DVD OR BD RELEASES, THEY WERE TAKEN FROM AN OLDER HD BROADCAST VERSION OF THE FILM.

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post #69 of 746 Old 11-22-2007, 09:25 PM
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Okay, I'm taking down the lone HDNet shots. It's causing too much confusion.
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post #70 of 746 Old 11-23-2007, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post



As has been pointed out time and time again, these screen shots are from an older HD broadcast version of 2001, NOT the HD-DVD or BD versions.

Vincent

Sorry Vincent, I am an idiot, as I certainly didn't notice that. Seems weird to have posted a screen shot from a broadcast in a thread titled HD Disk (HD DVD and Blu-ray) EE and DNR List!?

I see that the capture is being removed. Good idea.
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post #71 of 746 Old 11-23-2007, 03:36 PM
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Actually they're still there besides the HDM shots for the sake of comparison.
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post #72 of 746 Old 11-24-2007, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The thing is it is a transfer flaw even if it occured during the film-to-DI stage, which all versions are derived from, even a funky dvd from Russia.
IMO, the decision to apply DNR to reduce noise was poor as the motion artifacts are far more intrusive than any grain this scene might've had.

To clarify this issue I would like to say in a case where the EE and DNR come from the DI we are not blaming the 1080p mastering for this. The title with the EE and DNR still goes on the list though so people can avoid buying this disc if they dislike EE and DNR, although in such cases it may represent the intended look as created by the film makers (respectively their choice of a lesser of 2 evils).
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post #73 of 746 Old 11-24-2007, 09:20 PM
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My question is whether the "problem" with THE DEPARTED is a "DNR" issue at all. The first time this "flaw" was brought up here was in a thread that speculated that the "problem" was due to the "low bit rate VC1 encode" during the scene in question. I honestly wonder whether at that point some folks didn't go looking for (and subsequently "finding") problems that weren't really there. The very brief blurring of the background wall stripes into "mush" doesn't look any different than the type of background blurring I see in camera movement all the time, and yet now it's being written up as a definite DNR issue that occurred during the creation of the Digital Intermediate. My question is, where's the proof?

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post #74 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

My question is whether the "problem" with THE DEPARTED is a "DNR" issue at all. The first time this "flaw" was brought up here was in a thread that speculated that the "problem" was due to the "low bit rate VC1 encode" during the scene in question. I honestly wonder whether at that point some folks didn't go looking for (and subsequently "finding") problems that weren't really there. The very brief blurring of the background wall stripes into "mush" doesn't look any different than the type of background blurring I see in camera movement all the time, and yet now it's being written up as a definite DNR issue that occurred during the creation of the Digital Intermediate. My question is, where's the proof?
Vincent

There is no hard proof for now, only experience from watching (non DI) films that motion blur does not look like that.
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post #75 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anybody checked out "The Aviator"? Is it DNR city or not? The 35mm prints were.
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post #76 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 12:43 PM
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I'd say the quality of that scene in The Departed is proof. Very soft and smeary. When the charaters move through the frame it's like they're moving through a liquid background. The scene directly after it has none of these issues and even shows some nice grain.
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post #77 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

There is no hard proof for now, only experience from watching (non DI) films that motion blur does not look like that.

Is this anecdotal or are you in the business?
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post #78 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 09:52 PM
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The 40-Year-Old Virgin looks so bad! I noticed this right away when I watched the disc. This is a newer film too. Universal and some other studios need to get their **** together.
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post #79 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneL View Post

Is this anecdotal or are you in the business?

For the record, I believe that mhafner is easily qualified to make accurate statements regarding fundamental aspects like motion blur,
and for that matter, is more knowledgeable concerning EE and DNR than anyone else I am aware of that regularly posts on this forum.

He has written his own DNR filters including motion estimation, interpolation filters and has labored in digital film restoration research.
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post #80 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Has anybody checked out "The Aviator"? Is it DNR city or not? The 35mm prints were.

Michel,
I don't think this is your typical example of a smeared DNR look, like with some other possible examples you have listed on page 1 suggesting over zealous post processing (i.e. classic temporal based median filtering?).

This film was indeed an anomaly and had some of the best people in the business working on it from start to end. The people involved essentially developed a way to produce the Technicolor dye-transfer process (at the bequest of Marty S.) using digital tools!

Usually in the typical DI production, the steps are color correction, rendering and film out - simple.
For this anomalous case (in the pursuit of mimicking the colors of the traditional old Technicolor dye-transfer process), the ON was color corrected and that was rendered out as a color corrected file. That file was subsequently again *color corrected* by the application of an additional LUT.

So, much of the film essentially had two color correction passes in order to get the look that Marty S. wanted. If any process involving DNR was employed somewhere in the production chain (and I'm not saying it was, Omerta ), it had to be done in order to effectively produce the ground breaking digital method for recreating the look of the old Technicolor dye-transfer process.

This just may be the most complicated and difficult DI production done to date (from a colorist's POV).
B.T.W., Robert Richardson (who worked closely with the colorist on the project) won the Oscar for Cinematography with his work on this film, if memory serves.
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post #81 of 746 Old 11-25-2007, 11:17 PM
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The Aviator had kind of a pasty processed look (in the theater) but I don't remember any smeary motion artifacts. Certainly nothing like that scene in The Departed.
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post #82 of 746 Old 11-26-2007, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

Michel,
I don't think this is your typical example of a smeared DNR look, like with some other possible examples you have listed on page 1 suggesting over zealous post processing (i.e. classic temporal based median filtering?).

I'm not talking about the color processing. That might bring out additional noise/grain. But what I saw is not grading related (I think). The 35mm print looked really bad when skin was in motion. It looked like grain filtering with an algorithm that knows about edges and other prominent image features and makes sure the motion is correct for these, but has no clue about the rest of the image with soft detail as in faces. Faces were a mess. The effect is also visible on the DVD. Whatever it is, it looks atrocious. I was really tempted to leave the cinema.
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post #83 of 746 Old 11-26-2007, 03:15 PM
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Title: Waiting... (2005)
Studio: Lions Gate
Disc: BD (USA)
Problem: DNR (noise reduction)
Time Codes: Visible all the time
Comments: Even sitting at a reasonable distance, severe DNR is detectable. It looks very similar to The 40-year-old Virgin.
URLs: none
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post #84 of 746 Old 11-27-2007, 01:25 AM
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I can confirm Waiting... it's like watching wax work dummies on screen.

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post #85 of 746 Old 11-27-2007, 06:45 AM
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Comedies seem to get the worst treatment.
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post #86 of 746 Old 11-27-2007, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post

For the record, I believe that mhafner is easily qualified to make accurate statements regarding fundamental aspects like motion blur,
and for that matter, is more knowledgeable concerning EE and DNR than anyone else I am aware of that regularly posts on this forum.

He has written his own DNR filters including motion estimation, interpolation filters and has labored in digital film restoration research.

Cool
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post #87 of 746 Old 11-28-2007, 07:00 AM
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Can anyone confirm that the old and new BRDs of Robocop have EE?
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post #88 of 746 Old 11-29-2007, 05:11 AM
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More detailed entry for:

Title: Tremors (1990)
Studio: Universal
Disc: HD-DVD (USA)
Problem: DNR, EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: Extremely DNRed imagery with EE/ringing. Just atrocious.
URLs: Screen captures
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post #89 of 746 Old 11-29-2007, 01:47 PM
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Van Wilder has some bad DNR.. However I don't have screen shots like others to prove it. Also the Untouchables has been chastised for being DNR'ed to death.

Michael

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post #90 of 746 Old 11-29-2007, 08:09 PM
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"Also the Untouchables has been chastised for being DNR'ed to death." --Patsfan123

Really? Chastised by whom? "The Untouchables" is one of the best-looking HD DVDs I've wathced, and I notice that in Dave Vaughn's HD DVD review of it at Home Theater Spot he also praises the picture quality and then compares it to the BD version, which he says is identical, both of them looking great. In addition, I see that my old friend Eddie Feng at DVD Beaver thought "The Untouchables" looked excellent on HD DVD, too.

"DNR'ed to death?" Apparently, that's a good thing. Specifically, what evils should Dave and Eddie and I be looking for in "The Untouchables" that we are not seeing, and exactly where in the film might we find them?

John
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