HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 745 Old 12-14-2007, 09:11 AM
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I have not seen this one. For myself I need to see motion to detect NR. Hard to tell looking at static images. Those images look fine to me.
The titles I am mentioning have excessive EE. Impossible to miss
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post #122 of 745 Old 12-14-2007, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I hear you but they are not using too small of a display. My laptop shows the issues being talked about so I know it is visible on displays they are using.

I am not trying to defend anyone but most subjective assessments of general public would show that users would prefer a sharper image with halo than one without. Just about every picture taken with a digital camera is sharpened for the same reason and too much so many times. No different than people driving distorted subs with their movies. Sometimes people prefer more of something even though it means some distortion comes with it. Think of how many people bother to set the sharpness control to where it should be.

Now, the above was a lot more necessary for SD where so much resolution was lost in the downsampling, that some sharpening was dialed in to increase the apparent resolution. Same is probably true to some extent on a 720p display where the filtering may over-soften the detail. I assure you that 99% of the people would prefer some amount of sharpening here even if it means that there are halos.

Noise reduction falls in exactly the same category. I am sure user surveys at large would show that average joe wants cleaner image with no grain. Even the people here ask for that from time to time. Remember Samsung BD player shipping with this filter always on?

The above is why this is hard. We have to convince the studios to cater to the needs of the few of us and get them to become one of us. We are making progress there but let’s not assume that there is no reason whatsoever for doing what they do. Their business has driven them here for a reason. Best way to do this is to encourage them nicely and not assume that they are using cheap displays and don’t know what they are doing .


I am guessing it is seen as an advantage , their product looks sharper on the smaller monitors on display at the stores until we get it home and pop it up on the big screen.
Joe Kane himself has mentioned the monitors they are using for authoring are to small. He wants them to start using projection but with the excuses we are getting on this topic I doubt we will ever see that happen.
I would say most here on the forum ether hate EE or tolerate it but all would benefit its demise even those with the smallest of displays.
It is a shame there is no standard. For the most part we are talking only a few studios who repeatedly depend on this practice.
Reading the insider thread everything seams positive and wonderful but then we have the few studios further down the chain putting out sub par content that counters the enthusiasm in the Insider thread.
I seams no one knows what the other is doing or has any authority which explains the large quality control issue between transfers and the use of heavy edge enhancement and or NR.
If Studio A can repeatedly put out older titles & new titles without the use of EE then it becomes clear it is a man made injected artifact sadly ruining what HD is all about. The sooner they rid of this practice the better the format will progress and be accepted by all not just those with tiny TVs. It is not needed, this is HD
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post #123 of 745 Old 12-14-2007, 05:00 PM
 
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We are very aware of what Joe is trying to do, since we asked him to put together the demonstrations on his projector for studio execs to appreciate what great video is all about . These are some of the behind the scenes things we are trying to do. The demonstrations have been very effective but I don't know about the final outcome.
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post #124 of 745 Old 12-15-2007, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Looked finally into "Eyes Wide Shut". Oh dear. What a mess! Horrible DNR!
I only checked 10 minutes, but different spots. Looks like this transfer is screwed. I have to compare to the D-VHS recording I have. I think that one has no DNR.
Why, WB, why? "The Shining" looks so nice. And now this!
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post #125 of 745 Old 12-16-2007, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

- the fact that you can have the cake and eat it too by delivering clean masters and leave the sharpening and filtering to the display chain where it belongs. People too clueless to know there are sharpness knobs and what they do are not smart enough either to see the lack of sharpening and boycott the product because of it.

I joked about this with Bjoern Roy back in the DVD days - give those people who want all the nasty things we hate appropriate options on their equipment and be done.

To try to cater to those who prefer an immensly processed image I suggest to add three buttons on their remote:

- clean picture: Adds DNR
- sharp picture: Adds EE
- fill the screen: zooms into picture and removes black bars from all movies wider than the academy ratio, also removes sidebars from 4:3 content

And now the studios should just try to make movies look like film on HDM, even if they are older than a year or two.

Of the last 15 non-animated movies I watched on HDM 5 had very obstrusive processing, mostly both DNR and EE related and three of these movies I did not even finish because of it. This is hardly better than what I was used to with DVD.
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post #126 of 745 Old 12-16-2007, 03:31 PM
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This is probably meaningless to joe six pack but is it possible to put real time filtering on hd and blu players?

By doing it this way, there's no need to re-encode the movie. Just have an "unfilter" option...put an educational featurette about DNR (and other nonsense) on the disc.

Average user plays the DNR'd version and people that care can undo it, without needing a second encode on the disc.
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post #127 of 745 Old 12-16-2007, 05:50 PM
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DNR can take a lot of cpu power to pull off in real time if you want "good" results, like with ffdshow.

If I'm not mistaken don't some players have a NR feature?
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post #128 of 745 Old 12-16-2007, 07:35 PM
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This talk reminds me of the "soft picture" mode on some Pioneer LaserDisc players back in the day, which was included to compensate for folks used to VHS who felt that LD images were "too sharp"!

Vincent
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post #129 of 745 Old 12-17-2007, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakesh.S View Post

This is probably meaningless to joe six pack but is it possible to put real time filtering on hd and blu players?
By doing it this way, there's no need to re-encode the movie. Just have an "unfilter" option...put an educational featurette about DNR (and other nonsense) on the disc.
Average user plays the DNR'd version and people that care can undo it, without needing a second encode on the disc.

If you mean that one should put the unprocessed version on the disc and have DNR and EE options in the player, yes, that is doable. Just put one of the new video chips in there (Gennum etc.). They have DNR and EE functions built in. The other way around does not work (remove the DNR and EE in the master with filters in the player).
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post #130 of 745 Old 12-17-2007, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Watched the whole EWS BD and did some comparison with the D-VHS from HBO. Neither is what we want. The HBO has the WB vertical filtering/jaggies problem, is a bit sharper and has less to no DNR, but compression issues. The HD-DVD and BD have DNR and are a bit softer. The disks need a remaster without DNR.
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post #131 of 745 Old 12-18-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Looked finally into "Eyes Wide Shut". Oh dear. What a mess! Horrible DNR!

Do we have any screenshot to confirm that?
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post #132 of 745 Old 12-18-2007, 06:23 PM
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I haven't seen the HD DVD/BD yet (I don't like the movie), but folks at HTF are also reporting distracting DNR on Eyes Wide Shut.

WB has done this to far too many DVDs. Apparently, the "this DNR dial goes to eleven" techs are working in the HD division as well...

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #133 of 745 Old 12-18-2007, 06:32 PM
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I watched my Blu-ray copy of Scary Movie the other day, and it has some of the worst DNR that I have ever seen. It got some good reviews because it has the "pop" that many are looking for, but small details are either completely missing or go in-and-out because of the terrible filtering. This definitely belongs on the list.

Title: Scary Movie
Studio: Disney
Disc: Blu-ray
Problem: DNR
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: Everything looks smooth and wax-like. Small facial details are nonexistent, and other details such as clothing patterns are either completely filtered-out or continually pop in and out of the picture.
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post #134 of 745 Old 12-19-2007, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

Do we have any screenshot to confirm that?

I can't do screenshots but I put in some time codes.
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post #135 of 745 Old 12-19-2007, 02:36 AM
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It's starting to look like a smaller list to maintain would be "films WITHOUT EE and DNR"?

Mark

My cinema: The Cave!

My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #136 of 745 Old 12-19-2007, 12:35 PM
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It seems like 3 Studios are behind most of these problems: Warner, Universal and to a lesser extent Paramount. If we could get them to stop using really old transfers then I think HDM will be on the right track.
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post #137 of 745 Old 12-20-2007, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Watched Spiderman 1 and unfortunately it has DNR/EE issues too. Probably baked into the DI so Sony can't fix it. It's a 5 year old DI and it shows. Very uneven looking. Some shots are really poor, others look like this year's stuff. The first 10 minutes or so and the last scene are among the poor looking material. In between it's up and down. Motion looks often weird with softening and jerking artifacts. Anyone else see the problems?
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post #138 of 745 Old 12-20-2007, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Can anybody confirm that "Dirty Dancing" is a horrendous transfer full of DNR, EE, Aliasing and Banding?
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post #139 of 745 Old 12-20-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Can anybody confirm that "Dirty Dancing" is a horrendous transfer full of DNR, EE, Aliasing and Banding?

yes.
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post #140 of 745 Old 12-20-2007, 11:32 AM
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T3 on BD seems to be a 1080i encode...
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post #141 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 04:25 AM
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Title: Simpsons movie
Studio: Fox
Disc: Blu-ray (UK)
Problem: EE
Time Codes: Whole movie
Comments: EE is visible throughout.
URLs: http://home.worldwidedvdforums.com/f...p?f=59&t=14940

This is second hand information i have learned at another forum. EE has been confirmed by a few members, who know claim to what it is. Sadly.

Please note the screenshots are from the UK version of the film. I don´t know if it´s the same encode as the U.S. version.


This is NOT confirmed, see Alan Gouger's post # 147 in this thread!

dooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
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post #142 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 04:36 AM
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Im not 100% sure it really is EE on the Simpsons. It resembles compression artifacts that usually can happens on edges.

But as I said, im not sure.

EDIT

By closer look at it, I would say the screencaps shows both EE and Artifacts. But this wasnt something I saw during the movie. (I didnt look for it either)
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post #143 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 05:11 AM
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i think the two big pictures at the bottom of the linked site are showing mostly compression/scaling artefacts. But if you open one of the full screenshots and look at them at 100%, it looks like EE to me. I would love to be proven wrong here tbh, i am really looking forward to this film and i hate EE.

dooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
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post #144 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 06:13 AM
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Are we expecting Pan's Labyrinth to enter the DNR-ed list ?

Blu-ray : 340
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post #145 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 09:16 AM
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The Simsons does not have any EE. Its flawless. I am not doubting people have systems that adds EE. My system does not and that movie is about as EE free as the best of them. Anyone saying the Simpsons has EE should be seeing EE on a ton of others far more so and reporting them as their system is coloring what they are seeing.
I am watching this one at 8 feet wide and I can even turn up my sharpness on this one which even then adds no ringing.
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post #146 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

The Simsons does not have any EE. Its flawless. I am not doubting people have systems that adds EE. My system does not and that movie is about as EE free as the best of them. Anyone saying the Simpsons has EE should be seeing EE on a ton of others far more so and reporting them as their system is coloring what they are seeing.
I am watching this one at 8 feet wide and I can even turn up my sharpness on this one which even then adds no ringing.

Thanks for the info Alan! You make me a happy camper.

dooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
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post #147 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 09:58 AM
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The best place to show off ringing are bright scenes with letters.
Here are few caps, 8 feet wide and Im zooming in on the image.
Just for the record Im going 24 out of the pioneer HD1 into the Crystalio 3400 24 out to the Sony VW200.
The Crystalio has been reported to add some ringing according to Greg Rogers review and still at 8 feet wide there is still no ringing. If I use my Lumagen with its no ring scaling this is as smooth as butter.
People reporting ringing on this title I have no doubt they are seeing what they are seeing but it is being introduced somewhere in their video chain.

Those same people reporting this title should really be seeing ringing far worse on many other titles that are boarder full of EE that they are not complaining about. Makes you wonder the agenda


Same image with my projectors sharpness set to full



Same image with my projectors sharpness set to full



Same image with my projectors sharpness set to full


Here you can see I can replicate the same ringing in the pictures the few posted by turning up my sharpness and putting it on full something no one whould ever do or should do
Even with my sharpness on full on most scenes is still hard to see and remember I am zooming in on an 8 foot image for these. At normal viewing and on a smaller display you would never see it. Rest assured this is a great transfer.
So those who are seeing ringing it is their own fault or their systems fault.

And to rap this up here is what someone posted. Compare to my pics.
Then look at his coments after the pic where he says this came direct off the player..id say something is very wrong here..looks like 480 not 1080.


This is a new movie, why anyone thought it would need EE, I don't know.

Please note, my screen caps are straight from the BD, no cables, no cameras, no displays to introduce any errors.
(a bit of jpeg compression artifacts maybe as I don't use PNG)
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post #148 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 10:41 AM
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Alan, can you take the trouble to take pics of the same frames that others are using to show the EE (like the last one above)?
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post #149 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 10:55 AM
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fyi there is a thread and discussion about potential EE on the Simpsons movie here at AVS in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=881341&page=5

i had my info from BD.com and didn´t see the AVS thread until now

dooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
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post #150 of 745 Old 12-22-2007, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

The Simsons does not have any EE. Its flawless. I am not doubting people have systems that adds EE. My system does not and that movie is about as EE free as the best of them. Anyone saying the Simpsons has EE should be seeing EE on a ton of others far more so and reporting them as their system is coloring what they are seeing.
I am watching this one at 8 feet wide and I can even turn up my sharpness on this one which even then adds no ringing.

+1.
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