HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Regarding S. On my system it remains one of the cleanest EE free titles in my collection. At most I would accept someone saying it was edgy but not to contain EE.
I am also not discounting the digital cap as I have no explanation for it other then that is not what I am seeing. No where near.
I have also submitted evidence supporting my findings.

Because we can't go see other people's displays in the end we have to rely on the unmanipulated direct digital stills from the disc and what we see on our own system. I don't have the Simpson disc so I have to rely on the stills. The shots show ringing. 3 explanations for you seeing no ringing:
- your disc has none, there are different versions of the disc (unlikely)
- the discs have none, the screen shot had somewhere ringing added during/after AVC decompression (can be tested with other discs)
- your system does not resolve the ringing enough to make it visible to you (I see faint ringing on all your shots, by they way).
So for the time being the challenge is to present a ringing free direct digital 1080p still. Stills with ringing we have now.
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post #182 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Why?!?!?!

Title: Pan's Labyrinth (2006)
Studio: New Line
Disc: BD (USA)
Problem: DNR and possibly EE
Time Codes: Whole Movie
Comments: US BD has DNR, French HD-DVD does not
URLs: Link, Link

Blu-ray USA vs French HD DVD
http://horn.hdtvtotal.com/hdtvtotal/...885_panbd1.png

http://horn.hdtvtotal.com/hdtvtotal/...887_panbd2.png

Also, I own the european HD DVD and I can confirm the grain is preserved.


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post #183 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 02:44 AM
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At this point the list is now flawed & completely subjective.
So we are now adding titles that have been challenged by majority that say no EE in favor of a zoomed digital cap.
My system is indeed capable of showing ringing on discs that have it & I am the first to complain about the slightest ringing on any title.
Simpson's: More say it does not have EE yet those people including the evidence Ive submitted have been discarded.
I showed no EE in my pictures not only at 8 feet wide but zoomed
EE is something if there easily shows up from normal viewing distance and cannot be filtered out.

While they have their place majority people do not watch digital caps. Just as every satisfying projector or TV can be pronounced defective when put through paces with test discs ( which we do not watch them but they also have their place ) other viewing conditions must also be taken into consideration and not ruled out and count just as liable.

I included pictures that were zoomed by a factor of 15. People then zoomed them furtherer and said see I think I see it even though most people in that thread say it is not there.
Someone shows a zoomed digital cap and now the rest of us don't count. Trust me I know what EE looks like I know this is weak but even highdefdigest who has been reporting EE reported the transfer as flawless. If this disc is labeled EE even though most people say it is not there, then this now changes how we have to look at all other titles, under a microscope.
For instance days ago I posted Transformers on my system shows edginess. Its worse then Simpsons so we might as well add that to this list. The edginess is visible without any zooming and can easily be scene if comparing side by side to Simpson's.
Seeing as majority opinions from people noted to know the subject mater nor do pictures submitted supporting the lack of, then the validity of this list is lost.

We have plenty of support Here that question or say no EE. Lets not confuse compression artifacts or noise as EE. We also have support the other direction providing digital caps who say it does. If this title showed EE under normal viewing conditions I doubt we would have those in this thread established within the forum laying their reputation on the line who in the past have started threads reporting titles with EE commenting the title as EE free.
If EE were clearly visible everyone would be seeing it beyond digital caps. A title ether has it and all will see or it does not.
At this point this title has enough debate both ways, it does not belong in the list.

Moving forward if titles that show no EE under normal viewing conditions and reported by majority as so have to be zoomed by a large factor to show theres something there, noise of some sort, and that qualifies a title then we will probably find most titles qualify moving forward.
Ive taken the liberty to add the following title. It truly does indeed show ringing beyond the Simpson's movie.





Title: Transformers ( 2007)
Studio: Dreamworks
Disc: HD DVD (USA)
Problem: Edginess EE
Time Codes: Whole Movie
Comments: US version contains slight edginess when zoomed.
URLs:
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post #184 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

At this point the list is now flawed & completely subjective.

We should use only direct screengrabs, not photos. Photos are subject to 4 levels of tampering:

- HD player (post-processing)
- HD Display (sharpening or unsharp masking)
- Camera (optical distortion, color distortion, ccd matrix interpolations)
- jpeg compression (averaging filtering, macroblocking)

I suggest to remove all entries not based on direct screengrabs evidence.


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post #185 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

We should use only direct screengrabs, not photos. Photos are subject to 4 levels of tampering:
.

As I pointed out they are not 100% reliable. For instance in this case we have a few digital caps that when zoomed to the extreme show noise that is not showing up as EE on the screen.
This is what is being disputed. Its not EE.
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post #186 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

We should use only direct screengrabs, not photos. Photos are subject to 4 levels of tampering:

- HD player (post-processing)
- HD Display (sharpening or unsharp masking)
- Camera (optical distortion, color distortion, ccd matrix interpolations)
- jpeg compression (averaging filtering, macroblocking)

I suggest to remove all entries not based on direct screengrabs evidence.

Ordinarily I'd agree, at least for when we are trying to compare relative amounts of DNR, detail, or color fidelity. Any photos will have, at the least, a bit of softening in the lens.

But here Alan's photos are demonstrably BETTER than the direct screen caps. This suggests something else going on in the chain of creating 'direct' caps (bypass loop filter?). Until this can be properly explained we would be foolish to ignore Alan's photos.

Many of us would practically kill to have a system that good.

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post #187 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

If you were speaking of mine here is the blowup from that same picture and I just do not see any ringing

I see some ringing, only softened:



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post #188 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 11:33 AM
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Yes but that picture is a tiny part of a full frame that was zoomed x15 that is completely invisible under normal circumstances and now you are blowing it up even further. This is becoming comical.
You also are zooming a picture that has been processed several generation and you grabbed it from within the post. The original shows no EE, none.
I can find all kinds of artifacts on any title if I zoom it to these extremes.

Have you read the posts people saying they do not show ringing on their system

At 8 feet wide this title has no visible EE. Taking a tiny porting of that frame & zooming it by 20x you will find crap on any title

As I mentioned if thats the technique to be used to judge titles then I have a whole list to add that most will not be happy with but I garanty you I can find noise and ringing if I zoom them enough.

I do not know of anyone who would watch a title in massive zoom mode.

Reading the last few pages most people think it is a great transfer with no EE. Then a few think it is something else but not EE. There is a very small group zooming mass amounts saying its EE, its terrible its the end of the world and many of them have yet to see the transfer.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=881341&page=8
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post #189 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 11:46 AM
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Here is a picture I grabbed off the forum. Its 2002 Space Odysee.

Full of EE that is clearly visible with no zoom nessasary.

Using your technique this will give us reason to add every title.
This one should be added by the way.

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post #190 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 10:28 PM
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2001 has been on the list for awhile. There are people that dismiss the EE/ringing on that on as well.

Alan, do you think the direct screen captures are not accurate or do you think there are EE/ringing-free discs put there?
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post #191 of 746 Old 12-24-2007, 10:42 PM
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I would propose we not label something as having a ringing problem if it is not visible without zooming, upscaling. However getting very close to a large (or any size) screen does count.

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post #192 of 746 Old 12-25-2007, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

Blu-ray USA vs French HD DVD
http://horn.hdtvtotal.com/hdtvtotal/...885_panbd1.png

http://horn.hdtvtotal.com/hdtvtotal/...887_panbd2.png
Also, I own the european HD DVD and I can confirm the grain is preserved.

Sad that studios are allowed to tamper like this with finished masters.
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post #193 of 746 Old 12-25-2007, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

As I pointed out they are not 100% reliable. For instance in this case we have a few digital caps that when zoomed to the extreme show noise that is not showing up as EE on the screen.
This is what is being disputed. Its not EE.

Not EE, ringing. EE and ringing is not the same. While EE can add ringing other filters which are not meant to sharpen the picture (downsampling, upsampling) can add ringing too but not EE type haloes. The ringing is probably due to downsapling from 2K to 1080p or some similar processing step.
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post #194 of 746 Old 12-25-2007, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

At this point the list is now flawed & completely subjective.

The only objective proof for ringing are direct digital 1:1 stills via a capturing solution that has to be tested for not adding anything that is not on the disc. All other evidence is subjective and can serve only for preliminary conclusions. Highly unsuitable are snapshots of screens as there are simply too many variables at play here.
For EE it's more complicated as there are different causes possible for EE like 'artifacts', some of them from the original film (so no EE at all involved).
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post #195 of 746 Old 12-25-2007, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Sad that studios are allowed to tamper like this with finished masters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Eek. Plastic city. Shameful.

Right. Sad thing is no matter how shameful a given transfer is some people still keep defending or even praising it. That's why bad practises like obsessive DNR will likely never stop.

Michel, you mentioned your German BD/HD-DVD of Pans Labyrinth looks significantly better and shows no signs of "plastic" DNR look? Please verify this again! Thanks alot.

Greetings from your neighborhood aka Austria.
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post #196 of 746 Old 12-25-2007, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Michel, you mentioned your German BD/HD-DVD of Pans Labyrinth looks significantly better and shows no signs of "plastic" DNR look? Please verify this again! Thanks alot.

I watched the German BD again. I tried to pay attention to DNR issues. But if you have seen the film you know how emotionally powerful it is and image quality details are least on my mind watching this film. Don't sue me if I missed some problems. Some shots look DNR processed on this version too. But most of the film looks great and has no DNR problems. Some shots have elevated black levels. Having not seen the US version I don't know about better, but if that one has DNR all the time this one is better indeed.
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post #197 of 746 Old 01-16-2008, 09:13 AM
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It's back.
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post #198 of 746 Old 01-16-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Excellent. Thank you for restoring this thread.

Definitely. It's a great resource.


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post #199 of 746 Old 01-16-2008, 01:07 PM
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I also want to thank Alan and the Mods for restoring this thread.

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post #200 of 746 Old 01-16-2008, 09:54 PM
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Horray. It's back. Please add the New Line version of Pan's Labyrinth to top of the DNR list.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #201 of 746 Old 01-16-2008, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Horray. It's back. Please add the New Line version of Pan's Labyrinth to top of the DNR list.

The list is alphabetized. So PL is right where it should be.

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post #202 of 746 Old 01-16-2008, 11:20 PM
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When I first saw "Pan's Labyrinth" on the big screen, I was not imipressed by the picture quality. It had an overly glassy, glossy, "plastic" look to it. Now, I own both the French/Spanish version and the new American version (but not the German), and not only do they look identical to each other, they look exactly like I remember seeing the movie in a theater. What exactly are some of you using as a reference here?

John
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post #203 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 01:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John J. Puccio View Post

When I first saw "Pan's Labyrinth" on the big screen, I was not imipressed by the picture quality. It had an overly glassy, glossy, "plastic" look to it. Now, I own both the French/Spanish version and the new American version (but not the German), and not only do they look identical to each other, they look exactly like I remember seeing the movie in a theater. What exactly are some of you using as a reference here?
John

The UK and German Blu Ray disc. See examples 1 and 2 in first posting here for with and without DNR example.
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post #204 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 02:12 AM
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Just wanted to say thank you to the people responsible for allowing this thread to be brought back. It´s a really great resource.

I am glad, i don´t have any new titles to add to the list at this point.

dooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
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post #205 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 03:15 AM
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I just want to chime in about the Simpson's BD.

I can personally confirm that this "transfer" shows one of the most distracting ringing/halo artifacts I have ever seen - and that is throughout the entire movie.

Granted - I have an unusually revealing setup - Sharp Z20k 1080p DLP on a 10 feet wide Studiothek 130 G3 - BUT this kind of ringing should be readily visible on mediocre setups sitting a few screen widths away as well...

I am very puzzled about Alan's comments. The direct digital screen grabs released so far show the exact same ringing I see on screen. On a big screen and in motion it is even worse though...

I optimized my setup for not introducing any EE/ringing/halos by itself btw. 1:1 pixel mapping, no scaling, no digital filters,... This is not an issue of an individual setup - just an issue with how revealing the setup is and how discerning your eyes are...

That being said - I still cannot understand Alan's comments regarding this issue...he has "the setup" and probably is as sensible to this issues as it gets...

Alan, are you still using a 720p 3-chip DLP? Is it "thinkable" that scaling "hides" the ringing in this case?
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post #206 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 09:24 AM
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I think Paramount is just suffering from "US - Universal Syndrome". Basically it's grabbing an old transfer off the shelf and putting it on a disc, no matter how it looks. It's infected every studio: Warner, FOX, etc. Sony got over it though and Disney seems immune. We really need captures of Scary Movie though

I'm still disturbed by the whole Simpsons Movie ringing. What kind of filter or piece of equipment could cause such ringing?
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post #207 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I'm still disturbed by the whole Simpsons Movie ringing. What kind of filter or piece of equipment could cause such ringing?

Resampling filter. Brickwall low pass filter.
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post #208 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I think Paramount is just suffering from "US - Universal Syndrome". Basically it's grabbing an old transfer off the shelf and putting it on a disc, no matter how it looks. It's infected every studio: Warner, FOX, etc. Sony got over it though and Disney seems immune. We really need captures of Scary Movie though

I wouldn't say that Disney's "immune" to these problems, although they do seem to be better than other studios in this regard. The DNR in Scary Movie is atrocious, as is the DNR and edge enhancement in Disney's UK release of Con Air.

I am VERY happy with how they handled the UK releases of Crimson Tide, The Rock, and Air Force One. These are perfect examples of how catalog titles should be delivered on HDM.
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post #209 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

I wouldn't say that Disney's "immune" to these problems, although they do seem to be better than other studios in this regard. The DNR in Scary Movie is atrocious, as is the DNR and edge enhancement in Disney's UK release of Con Air.

I am VERY happy with how they handled the UK releases of Crimson Tide, The Rock, and Air Force One. These are perfect examples of how catalog titles should be delivered on HDM.

There is fairly bad EE in Disney's HSM2 as well.
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post #210 of 746 Old 01-17-2008, 05:20 PM
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Add IMAX: Roving Mars Blu-ray

Has INSANE amounts of DNR. It seriously looks like a cartoon.
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