The Future of HDM - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 680 Old 12-29-2007, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 17,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked: 328
[Moderator's note: With apologies to amirm, I've split this topic out of the Insider's Q&A forum for more open discussion - Doc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post

Amir, it almost sounds as you are talking about optical media as "old" technology. Are you saying the only way to stay at the cutting edge is digital distribution of media?

No, the list of things wrong with digital media today is probably twice as long. Hence the reason you don't see me defending anything in the download thread .

Therefore the “sound” you should hear, is someone well aware of what we have managed to deliver. And what work we still have left to do. Pace of innovation must continue and the only way it does, is for the people creating the technology to know what where they are in their aspirations. Besides, we would all be out of a job if we said we are done .

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 06:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
trbarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gainesville FL USA
Posts: 10,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Hehe .

Unfortunately, BD system suffers from the same limitation. Both formats are designed for worst case scenarios. So in that respect, neither is "good enough" . Here are the other areas neither is good enough:

1. 4:2:0 encoding of video.

2. 8-bit video.

3. Limited color gamut.

4. Not very extensible. At least not easily anyway. Look at how Apple itunes went from audio to video.

5. No way to take advantage of advances in video compression (ala DVD).

6. Limited ways to do 3-D video.

7. Lead time from replication to consumer delivery.

8. Fragile media. You can sit on your hard disk and nothing happens .

9. Requires a motor to spin the disc. Some day people look at that the same way they the think of VHS tape!

10. There must be a tenth but I am running out of lame jokes to get back at you .

My favorite saying is that “to love something, you really need to know its limitations……” When I wrote my book on Unix operating system, the intro is full of criticism of said operating system even though I think it was one of the most elegant pieces of software ever invented (for those of you new to computing space, Linux is a clone of Unix). Likewise, as much as I love HD optical formats, I am well aware of the fact that there is more we can do.

Amir -

Going forward into the future, don't you also consider the lack of 1080p/60 and other faster framerates sort of a mill stone around the neck of HDM? I would think that would make a good #10.

To me it seems almost inevitable to see the advent of 16-bit high frame rate realistic HD video using higher density color as those technologies become predictably economical, which they will. I'd venture that already most of us would not want sports, news, nature, or travel documentaries to look like film, and the rest will probably follow.

Am I wrong?

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at www.trbarry.com
trbarry is offline  
post #3 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 07:36 AM
Member
 
Bullseye1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No, the list of things wrong with digital media today is probably twice as long. Hence the reason you don't see me defending anything in the download thread .

Therefore the “sound” you should hear, is someone well aware of what we have managed to deliver. And what work we still have left to do. Pace of innovation must continue and the only way it does, is for the people creating the technology to know what where they are in their aspirations. Besides, we would all be out of a job if we said we are done .


Very interesting. Do MS not believe people should be given an opportunity to own their movies on HDM? How would MS implement distribution rights over different countries. Wouldn't it create a monopoly?

IMO that most people who collect movies want a hard copy. We all do not want to be wired to the internet.
Bullseye1 is offline  
post #4 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 07:45 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 20,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 601
I'll take digital distribution any day over optical media if the experience is the same. I would love not not have these cabinets full of discs and just be able to download the title I purchased when I want to watch it.
The day the download experience mirrors the disc experience I will stop buying discs right away.

Edit: I guess I need to ask a question. When do you think that day will come? When will the digital download experience mirror the disc experience? I hope it comes sooner rather than later.

39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
LED DLP
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme

aaronwt is offline  
post #5 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:00 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye1 View Post

Very interesting. Do MS not believe people should be given an opportunity to own their movies on HDM? How would MS implement distribution rights over different countries. Wouldn't it create a monopoly?

IMO that most people who collect movies want a hard copy. We all do not want to be wired to the internet.

If anybody wants to see HDM go away, it's Hollywood. It kills them to know you have a hard copy of their content that you might share with someone else, depriving them of a performance royalty. They fought cassette tapes tooth and nail. Spent a fortune trying to hinder VCR deployment. Hollywood's ideal is for the content to be delivered to your TV on-demand, so you pay per viewing. Fortunately, as you point out, while many of us like that convenience, we don't want to have to pay for successive viewings of the same content. Nor do we want to have to pay a second time if we choose to view said content on a different appliance. So, the hard-copy market continues.

IMHO, optical spinning-disc technology is nearing the end of its lifespan. If you look at 8-tracks, cassettes, even the good ol' VCR, 20 years is a long time.

If I had any brains at all, I'd be busy developing a box that downloads movies, but will copy those movies to a storage card. The user will be required to enter his/her SSC# to make that copy. The # is stored in an unreadable form on the card. You can play the content in any player, provided you plug in your SSC#. Since people are reluctant to give out their SSC#, this solves Hollywood's biggest issue w/r/t hard copies, while still allowing the purchaser to play the content wherever and whenever he/she desires.

But I won't do that because a) I don't have the required knowledge and b) I'm of the mind that if you pay 16 bucks to see a movie at a theater, you should get a 75% discount when the dang thing comes out on DVD.

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #6 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
J4yDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Jamison, PA
Posts: 603
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I'll take digital distribution any day over optical media if the experience is the same. I would love not not have these cabinets full of discs and just be able to download the title I purchased when I want to watch it.
The day the download experience mirrors the disc experience I will stop buying discs right away.

As long as I can store a copy locally, without the need for an Internet connection, then I'll go for it. If I need a connection to download (not stored) or authorize my copy, no sale.

John
J4yDubs is offline  
post #7 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
J4yDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Jamison, PA
Posts: 603
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

If I had any brains at all, I'd be busy developing a box that downloads movies, but will copy those movies to a storage card. The user will be required to enter his/her SSC# to make that copy. The # is stored in an unreadable form on the card. You can play the content in any player, provided you plug in your SSC#. Since people are reluctant to give out their SSC#, this solves Hollywood's biggest issue w/r/t hard copies, while still allowing the purchaser to play the content wherever and whenever he/she desires.

I understand the intent of your post, but using a SS # as the authorizion would be a big no no.

John
J4yDubs is offline  
post #8 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PaulGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

...If I had any brains at all, I'd be busy developing a box that downloads movies, but will copy those movies to a storage card. The user will be required to enter his/her SSC# to make that copy. The # is stored in an unreadable form on the card. You can play the content in any player, provided you plug in your SSC#. Since people are reluctant to give out their SSC#, this solves Hollywood's biggest issue w/r/t hard copies, while still allowing the purchaser to play the content wherever and whenever he/she desires.


Doc

Would the user then have to purchase storage cards, or other media to store 50GB movies? That could get quite expensive. also how long before a outlaw company comes up with a way to decrypt this storage, or capture the HDM stream that is being downloaded. If HD-DVD movies can be cracked then anything is possible. I as an end user feel their is value in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc since I can play it anytime I want and I have possession of the movie. Also in my opinion the internet is currently too slow to allow quick excellent quality HD movie downloads. The closest thing you have now is HD On Demand movies on cable. How are people accepting that? To me their will always be a rental market, whether digital download or going to a movie rental location, but their will alway be a demand for physical ownership of blockbuster hits such as "Lord of The Rings". Also their will alway be a percentage of the population that is not comfortable with computers and wants to purchase a disc.

One other question comes to mind with digital distribution is universal platform coverage. You would need a system that could be used on all operating systems - not just Windows.
PaulGo is offline  
post #9 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:31 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4yDubs View Post

I understand the intent of your post, but using a SS # as the authorizion would be a big no no.

John

Not really as it's only to make sure the previously blank storage card is married only to you. The number would never be uploaded, only used as a "key" to encrypt the copy. Now that I think about it, it's easily circumvented by inputting any 9-digit number. Perhaps a thumbprint reader is the better method. To secure the media, there has to be some way to marry it to just the original owner so that it's easily played wherever that owner wants to play it, but impossible to sell, give away or duplicate. Come up with that and Hollywood will pay you a King's ransom in royalties. Just remember where you got the idea and cut me in.

Footnote: As I said, "If I had any brains.." To me, the above copy-protection scheme notwithstanding, I'd still rather see future distribution done on non-mechanical media. I rather enjoy having music on a thumb drive and photo albums on an SD card. A rather large, motorized device for playing movies now seems old and clunky to me. Sure, you can stick a movie on a thumb drive, but the media is more expensive than the content. Has to be a way to get content on something that isn't handed down from phonograph technology. I think the future is POTC with all the extras in HD on something the size of a credit card.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #10 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fpconvert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: w. mass
Posts: 1,499
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

If anybody wants to see HDM go away, it's Hollywood. It kills them to know you have a hard copy of their content that you might share with someone else, depriving them of a performance royalty. They fought cassette tapes tooth and nail. Spent a fortune trying to hinder VCR deployment. Hollywood's ideal is for the content to be delivered to your TV on-demand, so you pay per viewing. Fortunately, as you point out, while many of us like that convenience, we don't want to have to pay for successive viewings of the same content. Nor do we want to have to pay a second time if we choose to view said content on a different appliance. So, the hard-copy market continues.

IMHO, optical spinning-disc technology is nearing the end of its lifespan. If you look at 8-tracks, cassettes, even the good ol' VCR, 20 years is a long time.

If I had any brains at all, I'd be busy developing a box that downloads movies, but will copy those movies to a storage card. The user will be required to enter his/her SSC# to make that copy. The # is stored in an unreadable form on the card. You can play the content in any player, provided you plug in your SSC#. Since people are reluctant to give out their SSC#, this solves Hollywood's biggest issue w/r/t hard copies, while still allowing the purchaser to play the content wherever and whenever he/she desires.

But I won't do that because a) I don't have the required knowledge and b) I'm of the mind that if you pay 16 bucks to see a movie at a theater, you should get a 75% discount when the dang thing comes out on DVD.

Doc

SS# would be cracked sooner than you could say "pirate". A non starter for the movie industry.

Flash memory and optical seem to be about the same age but cheap optical prices and increased capacities have continued to keep flash usage to restricted portable applications. Flash just can't seem to reduce pricing fast enough. If it were possible I would expect to see a 200GB flash based ipod as the entry level model.

Optical media also offers a happy size medium between the bulky vhs/laser disc and the easily lost sd/compact flash card. Getting rid of the bulky cases, which offer shipping protection more than anything else, you can reduce a large collection to a small space and still have easy access.

You should get a discount for the dvd when you go to the movie first. After all i've seen coupons good for the "new" movie installment in dvds.
fpconvert is offline  
post #11 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
trbarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gainesville FL USA
Posts: 10,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

...
IMHO, optical spinning-disc technology is nearing the end of its lifespan. If you look at 8-tracks, cassettes, even the good ol' VCR, 20 years is a long time.

If I had any brains at all, I'd be busy developing a box that downloads movies, but will copy those movies to a storage card. ...
Doc

Omitting the SS# issues I notice a quick check on Price Watch shows you can get 16GB flash drives for about $79 now and I'd guess probably half that by the end of 2008. So sometime in the next few years it is easy to imagine those becoming competitive with spinning discs as a movie storage medium.

Though I have no idea what their shelf life is and I'm not sure they are amenable to any sort of copy protection acceptable to paranoid Hollywood IP lawyers.

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at www.trbarry.com
trbarry is offline  
post #12 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:42 AM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
The past of HDM really has it's roots in the phonograph record - well over 50 years old. A motor spinning a disc that uses a pickup to reproduce what is recorded on the disc.

It would be nice to get rid of the mechanical part - the motor - and go to some kind of a 50GB or 100GB flash card or silicone based memory card. No moving parts. Just plug the card into the "player" and the delivery is done electronically.

Yet we are on the verge of three and more layers for a 5" spinning disc. We know why they are used - because they are very cheap to make and can be made in the millions very quickly.

But I agree . . . the 5"disc is in the twilight of it's years.

We have seen the demise of the CRT to reproduce video. We should be able to do something more than what we have today.
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #13 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Bloggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

Amir -

Going forward into the future, don't you also consider the lack of 1080p/60 and other faster framerates sort of a mill stone around the neck of HDM? I would think that would make a good #10.

To me it seems almost inevitable to see the advent of 16-bit high frame rate realistic HD video using higher density color as those technologies become predictably economical, which they will. I'd venture that already most of us would not want sports, news, nature, or travel documentaries to look like film, and the rest will probably follow.

Am I wrong?

- Tom

I agree with this post.
Also, higher frame resolutions would be a good #11 (4000x2000) and for them to record on media that had practically no film grain or video noise, 4:4:4 and practically zero video compression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirm View Post

Requires a motor to spin the disc. Some day people look at that the same way they the think of VHS tape!

Couldn't media on sort of memory thing that you plug/slide in (a bit like a USB memory stick) solve that problem

Also remote controls - why not control the movie by pointing at the screen or the player?

Also how about giving you a totally different viewpoint when you move to the left/right. Or 3d hologram TV?

How about players that can control your lighting if you ask it to (eg. if you start the movie it dims the lights. If you pause you can have it turn the lights on again). Also have an option in the player to turn the kettle on Also, you could have an option so that if there were scenes in the movie set in the snow/ice it could make your room a lot colder or if there was a battle on a planet with volcanoes and lava it could make your room hotter Maybe 180 degree screens? (not talking about temperature or viewing angle but 180 degree curved screens - 360 degree screens would probably be too hard to watch).

Also for music/concerts/documentaries you could have an option to automatically set your TV up (a sensor at your viewing position would analyse the output of the TV) so that it precisely matched the colour balance/light intensity of the footage as it was recorded.
Joe Bloggs is online now  
post #14 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 08:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 53
One advantage of having physical media is the ability to resell it. Yes the studios hate that.

But what's the advantage of digital distribution for the consumer? If you can have a digital video player which can store thousands of movies like iPods for relatively affordable prices -- a few hundred dollars -- then it may be viable.

Such a device would probably necessitate choking the bitrate. So there won't be 50 GB downloads. Probably not even 15 or 30 GB downloads. They'll try to get it down to under 10 or 5 GB and sell it off as HD content, with a tradeoff between convenience ad quality already accepted (e.g. lossy audio content on iPods).

Only enthusiasts are willing to spend what it takes to have terabytes of storage to store movies as files at full quality. The mass market hasn't demonstrated that yet.
wco81 is offline  
post #15 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:06 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

Only enthusiasts are willing to spend what it takes to have terabytes of storage to store movies as files at full quality. The mass market hasn't demonstrated that yet.

well, costs are already basically equivalent, if you want to look at it that way...

let's say 30gb for your "average movie" (which is being generous, most are much shorter). so on 1tb, you could store 33 movies. let's say you got those movies on "hard media" on a bogo at an average cost of $10 each. that's $330 dollars.

then let's assume that downloads would cost $5 each... that's $165... 500gb drives can be had pretty regularly for $100 (or less)... so figure $200 for the drives... so we are at $365...

so cost differential (even assuming a "large" movie size) is essentially non-existent...

and there's no reason to believe that storage media will not continue to become cheaper...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #16 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:13 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 20,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 601
I would like the capability of storing some movies, but for most movies I purchase I would rather just download them when I want to watch them. Going by the model that you pay for them and then can download them at any time in the without additional cost. Like you can with Xbox Live and the HD TV shows. I don't have a need to have all the movies I want stored locally, although I could probably accommodate it since I have around 15TB of storage at home currently.
But I also have a 30mbs interent connection show dowloading the content when I want to watch it isn't a problem.

39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
LED DLP
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme

aaronwt is offline  
post #17 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:15 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Art Sonneborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Battle Creek,MI USA
Posts: 22,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

Such a device would probably necessitate choking the bitrate. So there won't be 50 GB downloads. Probably not even 15 or 30 GB downloads. They'll try to get it down to under 10 or 5 GB and sell it off as HD content, with a tradeoff between convenience ad quality already accepted (e.g. lossy audio content on iPods).

Easy and convenient will win in that scenario and that would be bad for us.

Art

My HT


iRule rules my theater
 

"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

Bob Marley

Art Sonneborn is offline  
post #18 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
trbarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gainesville FL USA
Posts: 10,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Let's also not forget the current HDM flavors have already been obsoleted by now-selling holographic technologies like the Tapestry Drive. That one is still waaayyyyy too expensive for a consumer item but prices will come down as soon as they have any competition in the market. (another format war )

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at www.trbarry.com
trbarry is offline  
post #19 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:19 AM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
For the life of me - I can not understand this faciniation with DNL's.

What is wrong with a future based on VOD? You watch the movie in real time. Yes you can pause it or even stop it and return to the exact same point the next day or 3 days later.

Why in the world do people want their own server farms?
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #20 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:24 AM
Senior Member
 
PlayDoh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

Such a device would probably necessitate choking the bitrate. So there won't be 50 GB downloads. Probably not even 15 or 30 GB downloads. They'll try to get it down to under 10 or 5 GB and sell it off as HD content, with a tradeoff between convenience ad quality already accepted (e.g. lossy audio content on iPods).

Only enthusiasts are willing to spend what it takes to have terabytes of storage to store movies as files at full quality. The mass market hasn't demonstrated that yet.

Exactly - which is why I see downloads as the enemy of HD. They're marketed to the DSL/Cable crowd (which isn't going to change any time soon, at least in the US - speed wise). Talk about "good enough".

A cool solution would be to have a customizable download - let the 'average' user DL the 5gig version with DD+, and let others DL the full 50+gig/Lossless/HD extras. Again, not any time soon. And then that whole managed copy thing still has to be ironed out...
PlayDoh is offline  
post #21 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:30 AM
Senior Member
 
PlayDoh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

For the life of me - I can not understand this faciniation with DNL's.

What is wrong with a future based on VOD? You watch the movie in real time. Yes you can pause it or even stop it and return to the exact same point the next day or 3 days later.

Why in the world do people want their own server farms?

Pay per view VoD? Not good with the Disney movies I have running all the time for the kids. Oh, and yeah, my minivan - am I going to stream the movies out there via satellite?
Now I rely MORE on my cable/sat/VoD company... not good. I can't stand them now to begin with (which is why I got rid of them all).
And again, in theory it works - but what about those of us with Cable/DSL speeds that would want better than "good enough" quality - you just can't stream that kind of data yet.
PlayDoh is offline  
post #22 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MauneyM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Milwaukee suburbs
Posts: 2,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

If I had any brains at all, I'd be busy developing a box that downloads movies, but will copy those movies to a storage card. The user will be required to enter his/her SSC# to make that copy. The # is stored in an unreadable form on the card. You can play the content in any player, provided you plug in your SSC#. Since people are reluctant to give out their SSC#, this solves Hollywood's biggest issue w/r/t hard copies, while still allowing the purchaser to play the content wherever and whenever he/she desires.

Sorry, but I don't think this gets it done, either.

I view any media purchase as being similar to buying a book. When I buy a book, anyone in my household can read it any time they like. I can loan it out or resell it. It can be passed along as part of my estate to be enjoyed for potentially hundreds of years (and I do have some centuries-old books in my collection that have been passed down through our family). Once it has been printed and distributed, it cannot be retroactively censored or altered, unless I decide to deface or destroy it. Why would I accept a system that has me pay the same money for the media, but imposes limits on my ability to use what I have bought and paid for?

The same is true for my old vinyl albums, tapes, CDs, VHS tapes, DVDs, etc. - they work for anyone in my household, and will do so as long as the basic medium survives. Keep in mind that each of these 'hard' formats will LONG outlast the player electronics and/or any server that would be used to store a download. I just have to look at how many PCs I have been through since I started buying CDs and DVDs, and consider how much data has been stranded on each one when the changeover was mode (or the drive failed or became corrupted). Perhas the technology will become better in future years, but as of right now, I have FAR less trust in 'soft' digital storage than in 'hard' media.

But the key issue is DRM. I, for one, think that we all as media consumers need to be up in arms over the gradual elimination of the basic fair use doctrine. DRM-crippled downloads are just one more step down a very slippery slope.
MauneyM is offline  
post #23 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:40 AM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayDoh View Post

Pay per view VoD? Not good with the Disney movies I have running all the time for the kids. Oh, and yeah, my minivan - am I going to stream the movies out there via satellite?
Now I rely MORE on my cable/sat/VoD company... not good. I can't stand them now to begin with (which is why I got rid of them all).
And again, in theory it works - but what about those of us with Cable/DSL speeds that would want better than "good enough" quality - you just can't stream that kind of data yet.

There is no such thing as a future with a single movie delivery system. It will be a mix of delivery systems.

VOD is for watcvhing the movie. It is not PPV per say. It works just like it does today - part of your CBL or SAT subscription. You could have thousands of movies at your fingertips instead of the 50 or 100 that we have today.

There will still be a packaged media. Do not kid yourselves on that. The studios will always make something a retailer will sell you that has the movie on it.

Kevin Tsujihara
President, Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group


Quote:


Q 2: According to Adams Media Research, consumer spending on movie downloads will triple over the next five years, with relatively little impact on the DVD market. Do you share that view, and does that mean the two are really different markets?

Quote:


New technologies have always been a positive for the entertainment business, whether it’s been the advent of sound, color, digital projection, distribution channels or numerous other advances.And, many times these new technologies run parallel with the current offerings, serving as great supplements to the consumer’s experience.


We expect to be in the packaged goods business for a long time and see digital downloads as largely additive to the home entertainment industry and an extra convenience for the consumer. We may see some cannibalization down the road but the long term benefits to the industry far outweigh any negative impact.The upside for content producers and retailers alike in regard to availability and shelf space issues for library product alone will be enormous and almost immediate.

Lee Stewart is offline  
post #24 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,518
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

For the life of me - I can not understand this faciniation with DNL's.

What is wrong with a future based on VOD? You watch the movie in real time. Yes you can pause it or even stop it and return to the exact same point the next day or 3 days later.

Not too much in the way of copy protection. Once the signal has been unlocked and sent to your house, you are free to watch...... AND record. When I order VOD, I split the signal between my TV and my computer.... and of course I DON'T record it on computer
bigbarney is offline  
post #25 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:54 AM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Not too much in the way of copy protection. Once the signal has been unlocked and sent to your house, you are free to watch...... AND record. When I order VOD, I split the signal between my TV and my computer.... and of course I DON'T record it on computer

Very easy to fix. First SAT - then CBL are moving to MPEG4 and away from MPEG2. BD+ can be instituted in the new chip sets. Or some other encription scheme.

Do you believe the majority look at recording movies?

The DNL services are dropping like flys. On Demand is a HUGE hit.

Think what 100 million people want - not 10,000 AV Geeks.
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #26 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 09:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
edgebsl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Gulfport MS
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 112
With The I-Pod Video, The I-Phone, Apple seems to be leading the charge in portable media, Mac desktops and notebooks have been doing very well too. Especially with vista dissapointment abounding.

My question is where does Apple stand on this? Have they expressed an interest in downloadable movies? Downloadeable HD? I know I've downloaded a few hd trailers in quicktime.

My guess is that they will have something to say about movies getting downloaded. I don't think MS can edge them out of the downloadeable media market.

My second question is what connection speed is required to stream a movie equal bit for bit on par with hd dvd? With Blu-ray? Without further compression?

Thirdly MS being so vocal about the future of downloadeable movies, arent they shooting hd dvd in the foot in the process? Isnt this a confirmation of what's been said all year of their true intentions? What assurances could you give studios for continued participation with hd dvd when it's main backer has already shown it's main interest is to move onto something else?

Not that Digital and Physical coulnt coexist for awhile but , what motivation would there be to keep going forward with 2 phyical medias while a new digital one is being pushed forward with vigor?

Jeremy
Reaction Audio Subwoofers

edgebsl is offline  
post #27 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fpconvert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: w. mass
Posts: 1,499
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Very easy to fix. First SAT - then CBL are moving to MPEG4 and away from MPEG2. BD+ can be instituted in the new chip sets. Or some other encription scheme.

Do you believe the majority look at recording movies?

The DNL services are dropping like flys. On Demand is a HUGE hit.

Think what 100 million people want - not 10,000 AV Geeks.

Simple...order of movie distribution:

Theatre - Huge $$$ - I do this one
DVD - Less but still huge $$$ - love this when I miss the first
VOD - a lot less $$ - when i'm bored
Movie Channels - $ - not often at all
ABC, NBC, etc. - pennies - never
fpconvert is offline  
post #28 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 10:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
trbarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gainesville FL USA
Posts: 10,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am all for PPV and VOD, if they are high quality, convenient, and priced right.

But I am also strongly for having some format I can easily move to my car, phone, kid's rooms, loan or sell to my friends, and move to other houses or new computers. This also has to be high quality, convenient, and priced right.

For either format it is certainly a bonus to me if it is legal and approved by the IP owners. But I'm probably not obsessive about that part if the other essential features are missing.

All the combinations and variations above will probably continue for the foreseeable future.

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at www.trbarry.com
trbarry is offline  
post #29 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 17,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

Thirdly MS being so vocal about the future of downloadeable movies, arent they shooting hd dvd in the foot in the process? Isnt this a confirmation of what's been said all year of their true intentions? What assurances could you give studios for continued participation with hd dvd when it's main backer has already shown it's main interest is to move onto something else?

Not that Digital and Physical coulnt coexist for awhile but , what motivation would there be to keep going forward with 2 phyical medias while a new digital one is being pushed forward with vigor?

UMD was "pushed" with "vigor." Did it get anywhere? No. the only reason digital distribution harms optical is if it has a better value proposition for consumers and hence generates such a market, not because some technology company wants it to be so. If consumers don't see value in the system, it goes the way of UMD, DCC and other formats like it which have failed, including a number of digital distribution services. You are in control. So any blame, goes straight toward you .

As to our role in it, let's say we stopped altogether in investing in digital distribution. What do you do with Apple? Verizon & ATT? Comcast?

At the end, this argument is a tired format war talking point which has never held any water. Per my other post, we are a top three company trying to create a real market for HD optical with our investments in compression and interactivity (both of which keeps studios excited about the tiny market which is called HD optical). So at least in this forum, let's put our thinking hat on and not be let folks play us this way....

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #30 of 680 Old 12-30-2007, 10:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 8,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 282
This is why many people without blinders on are highly suspicious of Microsoft's motives in this HDM war. One of the suspicions being that MS is trying to keep this war going so both HD physical media formats die and they can make their downloading dreams a reality... no matter what the quality is or the strings attached to said service.

Downloading will have MANY strings attached just like the despised DIVX did, mark my words.

Dan

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is online now  
Reply HDTV Software Media Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off