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Toshiba losing like a fox?

10K views 158 replies 69 participants last post by  markrubin 
#1 ·
Here's an interesting spin on Toshiba ramping up support for HD DVD rather than tearing it down, this article does a pretty accurate job of portraying the HD landscape, and presents a credible theory as to the various angels behind today's announcements IMO.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/...leID=205604607

Quote:
"You have more negotiating clout if you continue to actively support the HD DVD format," he said. "If you rollover and play dead, then you have no clout."


It's likely that Sony over time would be willing to pay Toshiba to drop HD DVD, so the industry could focus on the one format and end consumer jitters over buying high-definition DVDs and players. The format wars have kept consumers on the sidelines, preferring to wait to see which format wins before investing money in hardware.
Quote:
While continuing its battle, Toshiba could see an increase in sales of its entry-level HD DVD player. That's because the lower price puts it in position to compete against standard DVD players. Greeson said that while Blu-ray and HD DVD players can convert regular DVDs to produce high-definition-like images, Toshiba is trying to use this feature to differentiate its new lower-priced players and thus help spur sales. "That was clever on their part," Greeson said of Toshiba.
 
#127 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tes7769 /forum/post/12821892


All i really see here are alot of "moot points" being made in favor of any "plausible" reason why HD-DVD ought to step out of the way so BluRay can have an easier time cornering the HD movie market.The "Point" is that HD-DVD isn't going anywhere and it absolutely is in a position with the new MSRPs to compete head to heda with BluRay.BluRay is spending too much time trying to hide it's own shortcomings and hoping HD-DVD will galantly step out of the way(which isn't goign to happen.Instead of facing it's own problems, such as an unfinished spec,obselete standalones,exhorbinant pricing(compared to the competition)etc., it's keeps trying to shift attention away from itself.Maybe the BRC should get it's own house in order before it tries to convince others of what they should and shouldn't do.

One of the few quality posts in this thread. It doesn't come off as a fanatical teenager at all.
 
#128 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater /forum/post/12821934


We live in a free market, not a protected market. Unless the product has zero competition and consumers have no where else to go, there are no protections. Blu-Ray, even without HD-DVD, has competition from SD-DVD, on-demand PPV and Internet downloads. We do NOT want the government telling retailers and Hollywood what format they should release their products.

I believe what he was referring to is government protection from any kind of attempt by the BDA to pay retailers to stop carrying HD DVD hardware and software.


Government does and should protect us from such unfair competitive practices.
 
#129 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tes7769 /forum/post/12821892


All i really see here are alot of "moot points" being made in favor of any "plausible" reason why HD-DVD ought to step out of the way so BluRay can have an easier time cornering the HD movie market.The "Point" is that HD-DVD isn't going anywhere and it absolutely is in a position with the new MSRPs to compete head to heda with BluRay.BluRay is spending too much time trying to hide it's own shortcomings and hoping HD-DVD will galantly step out of the way(which isn't goign to happen.Instead of facing it's own problems, such as an unfinished spec,obselete standalones,exhorbinant pricing(compared to the competition)etc., it's keeps trying to shift attention away from itself.Maybe the BRC should get it's own house in order before it tries to convince others of what they should and shouldn't do.


But in the end..HD DVD STILL has MUCH MUCH less to offer movie studio wise...and it looks like we may see Blu get a boatload more titles to offer while HD DVD has little left to offer and surely not enticing enough for any average shopper to invest in.
 
#130 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by webphilosopher /forum/post/12821785

Quote:
I miss plazman's astute comments about strategy. I'm sure he would have something insightful to say about Toshiba "losing like a fox."

Anyway, we'll see how Toshiba's other horse in the race -- DVD -- fares against Blu-ray.


I guess it all depends on how you define "losing."

What ever happend to plazman? He has been gone for awhile.
 
#131 ·
Should or shouldn'ts don't even factor in to any of this, this tendency to view a business as having some sort of higher duty or human characteristics is just a stand-in for all the various motivations that were either not privy to or don't understand.


Both Toshiba and SONY decided it was better for their interests to do battle, and the are some nuances to winning and losing that are not B/W here.


Warner, Fox, Sony, and Toshiba will all do what they think are in their best interests, I wouldn't project any moral agenda them just because one supports my choice more than the other.
 
#132 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim /forum/post/12821879


If your concern and indignation is over consumers getting victimized then shouldn't you reserve at least a little of your angst for the million users or so that already bought a hd dvd player last year?

Do I feel for them? Sure, but they were early adopters. You had to know that one format would lose (or else you don't know anything about economics and the market), so we all knew we were taking that chance. If you didn't and only bought in because of Toshiba's artificially low prices, then I think you should also be peeved at Toshiba (I bought in because of them...$400 A1, but I accepted the long odds against the format).

Quote:
You'd like to see their expections for future media killed asap? To bad so sad buy another player?

Absolutely. Look, we only have a chance at a ubiquitous HDM if there is one format and consumer confusion ends. There is only one serious possibility of that now, a quick mop-up to the Blu-ray victory (it really is inevitable now that HD DVD will lose, even their paid consultants are admitting it). Had HD DVD bought off Fox and Warner, I'd be mad as hell (I have a significantly larger investment in BD now) but I'd still want to see the end as soon as possible.


Because what I really want is HDM to replace DVD. I love movies and I've spent a lot of time and money on my home theater, and I want high quality HDM available for any title I wish to purchase. There can be only one...
 
#135 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater /forum/post/12821934


We live in a free market, not a protected market. Unless the product has zero competition and consumers have no where else to go, there are no protections.

Urr, the point of the law is not a "protected market" but rather to protect the free market. Never heard the phrase "freedom isn't free"?


Do you really think laws designed to protect the free market are really defined that simply. Perhaps you should look a few of them up some time.



If the law were defined as simply as you state no one would ever be convicted (although we may already be there) as there are a zillion ways to work around that definition and still squash all competition in reality... Don't want to stray off topic... Carry on
 
#136 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BozsterHD /forum/post/12821881


Care to explain what "the player can't play the new disc" means? HD DVD players will continue playing DVD discs and they will continue playing HD DVD discs. They won't play Blu-Ray discs just like Blu-Ray players won't play HD DVD discs. And so far, it seems that Blu-Ray owners will be more pissed off when they find out that most likely they won't be watching Ironman, The Mummy 3, Hellboy 2, Cloverfield etc etc this year on a player they paid $400-$500 they were promised they could.

I think early adopters of $400 and up Blu-Ray players are well aware of what they can and can't player. J6P, picking up a $149 A3 who goes into BestBuy two years from now and sees half the discs in Blue packaging with a big 1080P written on the back will be upset when his Toshiba fails to play the disc. He'll say something like "I just spent $150 on this thing two years ago and it can't play a high definition disc. Why does it say HD-DVD on it if it can't play high definition discs?"


He'll have to go to the Internet, which he won't do, to find out there was once a format war which Toshiba lost. He'll most likely just hold a grudge against Toshiba until the day he dies.
 
#137 ·

Quote:
Absolutely. Look, we only have a chance at a ubiquitous HDM if there is one format and consumer confusion ends. There is only one serious possibility of that now, a quick mop-up to the Blu-ray victory (it really is inevitable now that HD DVD will lose, even their paid consultants are admitting it). Had HD DVD bought off Fox and Warner, I'd be mad as hell (I have a significantly larger investment in BD now) but I'd still want to see the end as soon as possible.


Because what I really want is HDM to replace DVD. I love movies and I've spent a lot of time and money on my home theater, and I want high quality HDM available for any title I wish to purchase. There can be only one...

I agree with you that having the industry push one product will be good for the growth of that product no doubt.


The issue here though is that Toshiba should have the right in a free market to freely and fairly (as possible) lose on their own. How is it reasonable to expect them to roll over for 'the good of HDM'? Their funds would run out eventually and the product would settle to it's own level in a true free market.


But I understand we don't have that here. The truth is the format's belong to Hollywood and the content owners. So I'm really not suprised, just saying that once they went down a 2 format path now Toshiba has invested and should decide for themselves when they are done.
 
#138 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BozsterHD /forum/post/12822008


Which of course has not happened. Sony continues buying deals like that where it's quite clearly anti-competitive and illegal. Target, Blockbuster, even Best Buy support is bought, not to mention holding huge percentage of movie business too in their hands.

How much cash on hand do you think they have and where does Sony get it all from? Does Sony have a printing press that just spits out multi million dollar bags of cash to be passed out at midnight to buy every company?
Conspiracy theories just seem to have no limit.



You can also insert Toshiba for all the BD conspiracy believers.
 
#140 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway /forum/post/12821982


But in the end..HD DVD STILL has MUCH MUCH less to offer movie studio wise...and it looks like we may see Blu get a boatload more titles to offer while HD DVD has little left to offer and surely not enticing enough for any average shopper to invest in.

Also, Warner titles are being delayed where as they will be available on Blu-ray first.


So, a consumer buys an HD DVD player, goes to the store to find that their movie is not available on HD DVD for another few weeks but is available on Blu-ray and SD DVD. Not a reassuring signal being sent to the consumer that they made the right player purchase.
 
#141 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater /forum/post/12822234


I think early adopters of $400 and up Blu-Ray players are well aware of what they can and can't player. J6P, picking up a $149 A3 who goes into BestBuy two years from now and sees half the discs in Blue packaging with a big 1080P written on the back will be upset when his Toshiba fails to play the disc. He'll say something like "I just spent $150 on this thing two years ago and it can't play a high definition disc. Why does it say HD-DVD on it if it can't play high definition discs?"


He'll have to go to the Internet, which he won't do, to find out there was once a format war which Toshiba lost. He'll most likely just hold a grudge against Toshiba until the day he dies.


The same can be said with Bluray players. You assume that nobody buying a HD DVD player is aware of the software available, and all Bluray player buyers are?

People buying VCRs a few years back must have been pissed when they stopped releasing the new films on videotape.

People may be buying a new HD DVD player to upgrade a old DVD player. The HD DVD playback may be a option they choose to use. Just like the PS3 and its Bluray playback.
 
#142 ·
This discussion is exactly why this war is stupid. If the studios really had an interest in ending it they would get together and all go neutral. War over.


The problem is that, as an HD DVD owner, I am now in the same boat as before the Warner announcement. I still can’t watch ALL / many of the movies I want on Blue Ray and I don’t want to fork over $4-500 for another machine. So I wait and in the mean time I buy NOTHING. I rent from BB all the movies I want and as many on HD DVD as I can get. Maybe we will be further along in January of 2009. The studios certainly won’t be getting much money from me until one format totally wins or everything is neutral.


In fact I believe many people have actually put a stop to their DVD purchases. I tell friends and family NOT to buy because DVD is an old format and we still have this war going on. Just wait and rent until it is resolved.
 
#143 ·
But as enthusiasts, ignoring our biases for a minute. Should we in good conscience tell someone to buy these players?


This is the Toshiba VS-54C, a betamax model released in Canada in 1986, a year before the end.



What do you say to someone in 1987 if you tell him to buy this player in 1986?
 
#144 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon2k /forum/post/12821968


I believe what he was referring to is government protection from any kind of attempt by the BDA to pay retailers to stop carrying HD DVD hardware and software.


Government does and should protect us from such unfair competitive practices.

Why should the gov't tell a retailer what they should or should not carry? Why shouldn't a privately held company be able to accept payment for their coveted floor space?


Yes, protect consumers if someone is telling retailer they should sell only Dole bananas and NO OTHER FRUIT, but not which high def technology to carry. The gov't should protect us, not baby us.
 
#145 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman /forum/post/12822368


Also, Warner titles are being delayed where as they will be available on Blu-ray first.


So, a consumer buys an HD DVD player, goes to the store to find that their movie is not available on HD DVD for another few weeks but is available on Blu-ray and SD DVD. Not a reassuring signal being sent to the consumer that they made the right player purchase.

Oh, you mean like Blu-Ray owner who paid $400-$500 for their player goes into the store and see Batman Begins or Matrix Trilogy and asks, wait isn't Warner Blu-Ray too? How come these movies are on HD DVD and not on Blu-Ray? I'd like to see a retailer explain that to them not to mention the fact when they ask them, "And I'd like that Ironman, Cloverfield, Mummy 3, Hellboy 2 and that Bourne super action movie on Blu-Ray too". I'd like to see them offer the explanation to someone who paid 3 times price for the player over DVD player-like pricing of HD DVD.
 
#146 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman /forum/post/12822368


Also, Warner titles are being delayed where as they will be available on Blu-ray first.


So, a consumer buys an HD DVD player, goes to the store to find that their movie is not available on HD DVD for another few weeks but is available on Blu-ray and SD DVD. Not a reassuring signal being sent to the consumer that they made the right player purchase.

And when to go to pick-up titles such as:


Transformers

Bourne Series

Eastern Promises

The Kingdom


They'll notice it's on HD DVD which is supported by the player they just brought, so what's your point?
 
#147 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim /forum/post/12822302


I agree with you that having the industry push one product will be good for the growth of that product no doubt.

No issue there


Quote:
The issue here though is that Toshiba should have the right in a free market to freely and fairly (as possible) lose on their own.

I'm not saying the government should take action against them. I'm saying that we, as consumers, should excersize our rights as the true governing forces of the free market and let them know this isn't ok. "Losing in their own way" will probably change awfully fast if they get enough complaints from consumers (or their better-informed relatives) who spent $150 on a format that's dead.

Quote:
How is it reasonable to expect them to roll over for 'the good of HDM'? Their funds would run out eventually and the product would settle to it's own level in a true free market.

The problem here is that they would rather see HDM collapse, preserving their DVD royalties, than lose to Blu-ray. Since DVD royalties don't shrink along with the profit margins, Toshiba is much happier with DVD than stores and content providers. Those companies (which also have the right to persue their bests interstes) and consumers (at least the ones who want a viable HDM market) should get off their duffs and let Toshiba know in no uncertain terms that their actions are not acceptable, and will result in other market corrections taken against them. For example, my parents recently bought a Regza (46" LCD), which is why they were interested in a "$150 Toshiba Blu-ray player" (they aren't tech geeks, what can I say?). Luckily they called me before making the purchase, but they probably won't be very interested in Toshiba products any time soon.

Quote:
So I'm really not suprised, just saying that once they went down a 2 format path now Toshiba has invested and should decide for themselves when they are done.

No, they shouldn't. The consumers and other companies that need to make money from HDM should now decide.
 
#149 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tes7769 /forum/post/12821892


All i really see here are alot of "moot points" being made in favor of any "plausible" reason why HD-DVD ought to step out of the way so BluRay can have an easier time cornering the HD movie market.The "Point" is that HD-DVD isn't going anywhere and it absolutely is in a position with the new MSRPs to compete head to heda with BluRay.BluRay is spending too much time trying to hide it's own shortcomings and hoping HD-DVD will galantly step out of the way(which isn't goign to happen.Instead of facing it's own problems, such as an unfinished spec,obselete standalones,exhorbinant pricing(compared to the competition)etc., it's keeps trying to shift attention away from itself.Maybe the BRC should get it's own house in order before it tries to convince others of what they should and shouldn't do.

Agree 100%


--Will
 
#150 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BozsterHD /forum/post/12822383


Wow. Talk about bias. It seems that your logic only applies to HD DVD and has absolutely no way of happenign with Blu-Ray. LOL.


How can a person continue discussing anything with you when you offer a response like this which is completely ridiculous.

It won't happen to Blu-Ray because they will be releasing new movies two years from now - which will not be happening on HD-DVD. If you can't see the writing on the wall it's because you're eyes are closed.
 
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