Things that make you go Hmmm. Laserdisc Versus HDM - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 11:55 AM
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William, did you live in Atlanta back at Christmas of 1978 when LaserDisc went on sale there at Rich's department store?

I have a copy of the full-page newspaper ad that Rich's took out announcing the sale of MCA DiscoVision discs and the Magnavox Magnavision players the next morning (Dec 15th, 1978) at 8am. Now THAT was an exciting day, no doubt! The very first time on earth that the public could have "The World On A Silver Platter" I'll bet MCA and Philips had no idea just where their invention would lead technology - without them, we wouldn't have HD-DVD and Blu-ray today.

Also, William, do I see a Magnavox Odyssey-2 video game under the TV in that picture? Magnavox was actually planning a add-on for the Odyssey-2 so you could use it with the Magnavision VH-8000; That's why both the Odyssey and Magnavision look like they do - so they would 'match' when used together. Philips had a designer from B&O of Denmark do the design of the Magnavision and the Odyssey-2 - he also designed a TV for them that can be seen in the "Leonard Nemoy Demonstrates Magnavision" LaserDisc.

This is a super rare one-sheet for the Magnavox 8000 - the 'mass market' version of the 8000 was called the VH-8000. Only for the first month in Atlanta was it just the '8000'. By the launch in Seattle in Feb, 1979, it had been dubbed the VH-8000 and this one-sheet was discontinued.



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post #182 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

William, did you live in Atlanta back at Christmas of 1978 when LaserDisc went on sale there at Rich's department store?

I have a copy of the full-page newspaper ad that Rich's took out announcing the sale of MCA DiscoVision discs and the Magnavox Magnavision players the next morning (Dec 15th, 1978) at 8am. Now THAT was an exciting day, no doubt! The very first time on earth that the public could have "The World On A Silver Platter" I'll bet MCA and Philips had no idea just where their invention would lead technology - without them, we wouldn't have HD-DVD and Blu-ray today.

Also, William, do I see a Magnavox Odyssey-2 video game under the TV in that picture? Magnavox was actually planning a add-on for the Odyssey-2 so you could use it with the Magnavision VH-8000; That's why both the Odyssey and Magnavision look like they do - so they would 'match' when used together. Philips had a designer from B&O of Denmark do the design of the Magnavision and the Odyssey-2 - he also designed a TV for them that can be seen in the "Leonard Nemoy Demonstrates Magnavision" LaserDisc.

This is a super rare one-sheet for the Magnavox 8000 - the 'mass market' version of the 8000 was called the VH-8000. Only for the first month in Atlanta was it just the '8000'. By the launch in Seattle in Feb, 1979, it had been dubbed the VH-8000 and this one-sheet was discontinued.

I lived in Savannah at the time. I did try to come and see it but was unable and bought a Pioneer the next year (I think). Atlanta is Phillips US HQ so that may have been part of the reason it was choose for the world premier of LD.

Yes that is a Magnavox Odyssey-2 video game. How the hell I ever saw anything on that 13" monster is beyond me. Never was much into video gaming though and mainly into audio (as you can tell by the pic). I now have a PS3 and don't own a single game (use it as a BD player only).
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post #183 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 02:08 PM
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As promised, here is the introductory RCA DVD brochure from July 1995. It's not bad at all, and unlike many technology introductions, RCA didn't mislead about what consumers would be getting... (like where's the "Blu-Wizard" promised in Blu-ray brochures from last year???)

Isn't "Blu-wizard" on Black Hawk Down, one of the first Blu-ray (and excellent PQ and AQ, btw)? WTF are you talking about?

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post #184 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 02:15 PM
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Isn't "Blu-wizard" on Black Hawk Down, one of the first Blu-ray (and excellent PQ and AQ, btw)? WTF are you talking about?

Seriously man, don't ruin this topic with your super Blu posts again. We get it; Blu-ray won and that's it. Now stop your worldwide mission to defend in Blu-ray in every possible at least in this topic!
Blu-ray is the best and may Sony rule planet earth. Happy? now let this thread continue without going into whole format war battle; so many great discussions and lots of material to learn!

A Home Theater Enthusiast!
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post #185 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 02:18 PM
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I lived in Savannah at the time. I did try to come and see it but was unable and bought a Pioneer the next year (I think). Atlanta is Phillips US HQ so that may have been part of the reason it was choose for the world premier of LD.

Yes that is a Magnavox Odyssey-2 video game. How the hell I ever saw anything on that 13" monster is beyond me. Never was much into video gaming though and mainly into audio (as you can tell by the pic). I now have a PS3 and don't own a single game (use it as a BD player only).

Also, Atlanta had a population with higher-than-average disposable income - a lot of whom spent it on electronics! A guy who worked for Magnavox back then - he was the head of the Magnavision VLP program here in the USA - told me that, in 1978, Atlanta represented the perfect target 'demographic' for a test market launch like Magnavox was planning. Plus, it wasn't too far from where the players were being hand-assembled, from parts kits made in Holland, so they wouldn't have to be sent across the country if they needed repairs. (and boy, did they need repairs!)

I'm not surprised the Odyssey-2 worked so well on a 13-inch set - remember, the 'graphics' were just big stick figures in red, green or blue! We still have a working Odyssey-2 and a slew of games, including the incredibly cool Master & Commander series, that were a combination of video game and board game - based on D&D, I think. Master & Commander is still a cool game, even today!

I don't have a PS3 yet - I have the original X-Box and an Atari 5200 - and a Sega Dreamcast, but no PS-2 or even the original PlayStation. I get so bored with video games so easily - the one I do consistently play is one for the Dreamcast where you build working rollercoasters. Oh, and one for the X-Box where you run an amusement park and design the rides and such - the names escape me. The only 'real' videogame I ever played to completion was Y's I & II on the TurboGrafix CD system. I had a Sega Master System SegaScope 3D system too - that was VERY cool. The 3D glasses came in handy when I got my 3D VHD system from Japan.

What do you think of the PS3 as a Blu-ray player - I mean from an everyday usability standpoint? Tony's dad has one but ended up buying a Panasonic BD-30 just before Christmas because he didn't like the usability of it. And I think using a "game machine" for "serious" movie viewing bugged him. What are your thoughts on it?

Ty C. :-)
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post #186 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 02:21 PM
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Isn't "Blu-wizard" on Black Hawk Down, one of the first Blu-ray (and excellent PQ and AQ, btw)? WTF are you talking about?

I have brochures from Sony that promise Blu-Wizard on every title - it's even on the insert for The Terminator.

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post #187 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

Seriously man, don't ruin this topic with your super Blu posts again. We get it; Blu-ray won and that's it. Now stop your worldwide mission to defend in Blu-ray in every possible at least in this topic!
Blu-ray is the best and may Sony rule planet earth. Happy? now let this thread continue without going into whole format war battle; so many great discussions and lots of material to learn!

I already responded to him before I saw your post - so, I will just ignore him if he posts again! I simply don't 'get' the way some people go so crazy over a format - I mean, I like certain formats too, but some people treat any slight against their beloved format as if you had pissed on a picture of Jesus or something. It's just video/audio for goodness sakes!

And is it just me, but are the raving Blu-ray Fanboi's getting weirder and weirder all the time? They seem so... so... I don't know... unstable, I guess.

Enough of that... next post is a book recommendation. You can get it from the library, but can find it at Amazon.

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post #188 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 02:56 PM
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High Definition Technology: Hi-Vision Television

NHK Science & Technical Research Laboratories
1993.

From the back cover: ...You will discover the origins of the Hi-Vision System, it's history and objectives and the technologies used to support it. ...Presents a first-hand look at MUSE, the sophisticated band compression method for Hi-Vision broadcasting. Hi-Vision's essential compatibility with with the longtime standard NTSC television format is described and the present and future hardware technology needed to support this system-wide advance is discussed.

If you guys like reading about this stuff, this book is a MUST - I still refer to it when I need info on various things related to HD. It covers how we see, the resolution an HD system needs, VTR (both open-reel and UniHi) and home VCR HD formats, Hi-Vision LaserDisc & VHD, CRT, LCD, projection and Plasma displays, making movies with HD and film-to-video plus video-to-film transfer, etc... Very, very extensive. From what I understand, the book was translated and published here in the USA by the NHK as a courtesy to US engineers who were developing HD at various companies at the time. It originally cost almost $500 but you can get it on Amazon now for $56 or so. Less than 500 were printed. For the amount of info and the quality of that info, the book is a steal.

One thing that comes through, when reading it, is the enormous pride the Japanese engineers had in their Hi-Vision system - and not arrogance, but pure pride-and-joy. For once, here was a technology that they hadn't merely taken from America and refined, but instead, conceived of it and designed it, from the ground up - they thought of HDTV before anyone else did - and at the time the book was first published in Japan, it looked like the whole world was about to follow with their system - or some portions of it - for example: even though I knew MUSE-E couldn't be broadcast over the air here, I always thought it would be just a matter of time before Hi-Vision MUSE encoded LaserDisc's would be released in the USA. And that we'd have the W-VHS format and W-VHS movies available too. So, reading it, I feel a sense of sadness that the Japanese settled on a system that was obsolete before it really ever got off the ground. I mean, I'm not sad we went digital, just sad they saw their dreams die, if that makes sense. Even though the book covers 'analog' HD, digital compression is covered extensively in the book because they were already looking to digitally compress the 8-MHz MUSE signal for tape formats... it's interesting because MUSE is always derided for being an "analog" system, but in reality, it's a 100% digital compression system - the only 'analog' part of it is the actual 'broadcasting' of the signal over the air - it's an analog PAM (Pulse Amplitude Modulation) signal that is sent over the air. The Japanese had all-digital interfaces from LD player-to MUSE decoder-to monitor, all ready to go.

Ok, go get the book - or request it from your local library - if they don't have it, get it via Inter-Library Loan, which is free.

Ty C. :-)
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post #189 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

...What do you think of the PS3 as a Blu-ray player - I mean from an everyday usability standpoint?...

It works quite well. I bought a inferred to USB adaptor remote. It does look odd but I have an all black HT so you can't see crap even with 600watts of lights on. It loads much faster and plays quicker than my 1st gen RCA HD DVD does.

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...And is it just me, but are the raving Blu-ray Fanboi's getting weirder and weirder all the time? They seem so... so... I don't know... unstable, I guess...

Actually I would say both have been over the top since day one (BD more so now because it's an I told you so thing). It just seems to be human nature (espcialy testosterone feed males) to believe that since you decided to buy a product that it most be the best choice (my car is faster and better looking than your car). You would think that Toshiba or Sony are gods and benevolent profits that send down life altering and world improving products. And of course the other is a backstabbing underhanded deviant hell bent on world domination and OMG corporate profits.
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post #190 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by William View Post

It works quite well. I bought a inferred to USB adaptor remote. It does look odd but I have an all black HT so you can't see crap even with 600watts of lights on. It loads much faster and plays quicker than my 1st gen RCA HD DVD does.



Actually I would say both have been over the top since day one (BD more so now because it's an I told you so thing). It just seems to be human nature (espcialy testosterone feed males) to believe that since you decided to buy a product that it most be the best choice (my car is faster and better looking than your car). You would think that Toshiba or Sony are gods and benevolent profits that send down life altering and world improving products. And of course the other is a backstabbing underhanded deviant hell bent on world domination and OMG corporate profits.

i like the way you word things and agree ,best laugh i had all day.
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post #191 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by William View Post

It works quite well. I bought a inferred to USB adaptor remote. It does look odd but I have an all black HT so you can't see crap even with 600watts of lights on. It loads much faster and plays quicker than my 1st gen RCA HD DVD does.



Actually I would say both have been over the top since day one (BD more so now because it's an I told you so thing). It just seems to be human nature (espcialy testosterone feed males) to believe that since you decided to buy a product that it most be the best choice (my car is faster and better looking than your car). You would think that Toshiba or Sony are gods and benevolent profits that send down life altering and world improving products. And of course the other is a backstabbing underhanded deviant hell bent on world domination and OMG corporate profits.

I've been wanting to get one of the first generation RCA HD-DVD players - I know they are just a re-badged Toshiba, but I want an RCA so I can silk screen a "SelectaVision HD" label on it (YES, I AM that sick!). Plus, it has 5.1 analog outputs, which my HD-A2 does not, so I could take advantage of Dolby TrueHD without transcoding it to DTS first. And, then I would have 2 HD-DVD players so I could use one in the bedroom with my 960x540p Sanyo projector.

A guy on Amazon has them for $99 - Do you think they are worth that still? Or should I wait till the price drops more?

Regarding the Fanboi's - the personal attacks are what get me so irritated. And the way they will ignore any 'good' points made by others and just spout the same things, over and over - as if that would make it true. And as you said, its mainly testosterone driven - "mine's bigger" dick-swinging. I post here because I enjoy discussing technology - enjoy others opinions about it and enjoy learning new things - even if it's new things about old formats! The fanboi's just seem to want to irritate others. I can only conclude that they have sad, sad lives in the 'real' world.

Ty C. :-)
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post #192 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

Seriously man, don't ruin this topic with your super Blu posts again. We get it; Blu-ray won and that's it. Now stop your worldwide mission to defend in Blu-ray in every possible at least in this topic!

He asked where Blu-wizard was. I mentioned it was on a title that has long since been released (since November 06 FTR). Do you disagree? Is that all it takes to constitute a format war battle? Is it verboten to offer any counterpoint to an outlandish claim? One might think you doth protest a bit too much...


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I have brochures from Sony that promise Blu-Wizard on every title - it's even on the insert for The Terminator.

Every title? I'd sure love to see this brochure.

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post #193 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 04:08 PM
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I've been wanting to get one of the first generation RCA HD-DVD players - I know they are just a re-badged Toshiba, but I want an RCA so I can silk screen a "SelectaVision HD" label on it (YES, I AM that sick!). Plus, it has 5.1 analog outputs, which my HD-A2 does not, so I could take advantage of Dolby TrueHD without transcoding it to DTS first. And, then I would have 2 HD-DVD players so I could use one in the bedroom with my 960x540p Sanyo projector.

A guy on Amazon has them for $99 - Do you think they are worth that still? Or should I wait till the price drops more?...

I would say that's a little high since a new Toshiba w/5 discs can be had for just $30 more. I bought the RCA because it wasn't a Toshiba (I know it's OEMed but I wanted different). I said from the beginning of the war that Toshiba's subsidizing of hardware could be an Achilles heal for HD DVD. Everyone doesn't want to drive the same brand of car no matter how well built and low the price.
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post #194 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 04:28 PM
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... I post here because I enjoy discussing technology - enjoy others opinions about it and enjoy learning new things - even if it's new things about old formats!...

Did you ever own an Elcaset? I was big into reel to reel recording and lusted after one. The 1st gens were just too expensive for me at the time. Was anxiously waiting on the 2ed gens and oh well....
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post #195 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 04:36 PM
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Did you ever own an Elcaset? I was big into reel to reel recording and lusted after one. The 1st gen were just too high and was waiting on a 2ed gen and well....

Oh, how I wish I had! I've never even seen an Elcaset in 'real-life' - I've heard the dual-layer "Type-III" tapes have fallen apart over the years. And I've never found out for sure if the format ever had any pre-recorded tapes available.

Speaking of dead audio cassette formats... I have a pre-production prototype of a pre-recorded Philips DCC tape - it's of Dire Straits Brothers In Arms and has embossed across the back:

"NOT FOR USE - NOT TO FINAL SPECIFICATIONS - DO NOT PLAY"

I took it to a local Radio Shack, since they sold the DCC format under their Realistic name - it played - but it wasn't Dire Straits - more like porno or something - weird 'jazz' (porno) music with the sounds of people - uh - moaning. VERY bizzare. The sales man just looked at me like I was a pervert or something! I got the tape directly from a Philips rep at a DCC demo booth!

What other 'dead' formats have you or do you own? Tony's dad sells off a format at the first hint that it's dying. He had 80% of his LaserDisc's sold about a year before the first player came out! He's already started selling off his HD-DVD players - I just hope he gives me all his discs.

One dead format I love is my dbx-II encoded LP's. The dbx LP of "Heart: Dreamboat Anne" blows all its CD counterparts away. Not because CD isn't superior, but because the dbx LP was made when the master tapes were brand new. Those dbx LP's are really something special. I've always looked for CX encoded LP's from CBS but I've never been able to find any - they released about 100 titles, including Michael Jackson's Thriller. I have a Phase Linear CX decoder for them - but no records!

Ty C. :-)
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post #196 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 04:45 PM
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I would say that's a little high since a new Toshiba w/5 discs can be had for just $30 more. I bought the RCA because it wasn't a Toshiba (I know it's OEMed but I wanted different). I said from the beginning of the war that Toshiba's subsidizing of hardware could be an Achilles heal for HD DVD. Everyone doesn't want to drive the same brand of car no matter how well built and low the price.

While I LOVE the low prices of HD-DVD players, I, like you, felt the extensive OEM'ing might hurt the format - and its even worse with low prices because no company can compete with Toshiba's players, so why even try? Look at Onkyo - their XA2 clone is basically un-sellable because of the Toshiba's low price. And Onkyo has added nothing of their 'own' to set it apart from Toshiba's player.

Where did 'real' engineering go anyway? Nothing, not even the so-called 'high-end' machines really stand out - for example, with DVD players, a company may trick them out with heavier construction or something and attach a premium price, but the unit will still have standard flaws like the chroma upsampling bug or awful deinterlacing, etc... The stuff from truly high-end companies like Linn or Theta is a joke when it comes to the 'real' nitty gritty performance aspects. Or Wadia digital, selling CD players and converters based on provably incorrect mathematical conversions!

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post #197 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 05:14 PM
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Where did 'real' engineering go anyway? Nothing, not even the so-called 'high-end' machines really stand out - for example, with DVD players, a company may trick them out with heavier construction or something and attach a premium price, but the unit will still have standard flaws like the chroma upsampling bug or awful deinterlacing, etc...

I always thought the XA1 could have been a marvelous vehicle for that with a Toshiba sponsored upgrade program to support their first early adopters. It certainly meets the heavier construction standard (and was the only benefit for spending near double at launch).

It seems perfectly suited for it. On the mod thread, people swapped out the CPU and RAM but the culprit of it's slow speeds seems to be the drive (1x NEC IIRC). I've always wanted to frankenstein my 360 add-on (2x Toshiba) drive in there. We would definitely firmware support to that end, and barring an official Toshiba upgrade program, we'd be extremely unlikely to get it for obvious reasons.

I've always wanted to try it anyways, though am frankly glad I didn't pay $400+ for one when I was that close to pulling the trigger on it. Then I almost got it for $300 and change from Overstocks' refurb. Came VERY close to getting one for $50 on evilbay but alas outbid. One of these days...

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post #198 of 430 Old 01-24-2008, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

I've been wanting to get one of the first generation RCA HD-DVD players - I know they are just a re-badged Toshiba, but I want an RCA so I can silk screen a "SelectaVision HD" label on it (YES, I AM that sick!). Plus, it has 5.1 analog outputs, which my HD-A2 does not, so I could take advantage of Dolby TrueHD without transcoding it to DTS first. And, then I would have 2 HD-DVD players so I could use one in the bedroom with my 960x540p Sanyo projector.

A guy on Amazon has them for $99 - Do you think they are worth that still? Or should I wait till the price drops more?

Regarding the Fanboi's - the personal attacks are what get me so irritated. And the way they will ignore any 'good' points made by others and just spout the same things, over and over - as if that would make it true. And as you said, its mainly testosterone driven - "mine's bigger" dick-swinging. I post here because I enjoy discussing technology - enjoy others opinions about it and enjoy learning new things - even if it's new things about old formats! The fanboi's just seem to want to irritate others. I can only conclude that they have sad, sad lives in the 'real' world.

I have been enjoying reading the latest contributions to this thread. Maybe it is because I was a History major all those years ago; but the contributions and tech of yesteryear is very interesting to me.

I like the idea of you getting the RCA player. It goes with the other interesting gear that you have. It amazes me that these units are selling for $99 when they were pushing $1000 not that long ago. It probably will run as slow as a tractor; but then again it is built like a tractor (very tough and built to last).

As for some of the behaviour I have seen around here. Well... I frequent several watch forums (and moderate one) and it can get pretty crazy over there too. There has been a "fan boy" mentality in videogaming since the NES/Sega Master system days. I don't remember this kind of venon from when I had an Atari 2600 and others had Intellivision, then Colecovision. When Blu-Ray got "attached" to the PS3 and the 360 got the add-on I feared that this sort of lack of decorum would prevail.

Sadly I see some of this sort of behaviour on the Flat screen and rear projection forums here too. I have a RPTV and am interested in what is new (or if the whole tech is going to die off); but I am also interested in LCD and OLED tech. There are those who come in the RPTV forum to crap all over RPTVS and Plasma "fanboys" who come into the LCD forum to crap all over plasma. Where does this sort of mentality come from?

Anyways please keep this thread going. I am learning a lot and having a lot of fun at the same time. Thanks for the book suggestion! I will check it out. There was a cool book written many years ago called Game Over that talked about the development of the video game industry, early arcade pioneers, Atari etc. I will see if I can find my old Next Generation mag that had the review of the book.

Recent Wii owner. Enjoying HD up in the "Great White North"
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post #199 of 430 Old 01-25-2008, 07:26 AM
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....What other 'dead' formats have you or do you own? Tony's dad sells off a format at the first hint that it's dying. He had 80% of his LaserDisc's sold about a year before the first player came out! He's already started selling off his HD-DVD players - I just hope he gives me all his discs.

One dead format I love is my dbx-II encoded LP's. The dbx LP of "Heart: Dreamboat Anne" blows all its CD counterparts away. Not because CD isn't superior, but because the dbx LP was made when the master tapes were brand new. Those dbx LP's are really something special. I've always looked for CX encoded LP's from CBS but I've never been able to find any - they released about 100 titles, including Michael Jackson's Thriller. I have a Phase Linear CX decoder for them - but no records!

I'm bad about selling my electronics after they have served their use to me. I do have a MD STB (had several portables but all sold) in the closet. I have owned lots of different stuff. Some things of note that weren't the norm off the top of my head: A high end Akai 8-track recorder that had glass ferrite heads, Once had 3 reel to reels and 2 turntables (1 a liner tracking Pioneer (both with Shure V-15's)), Had a Pioneer 1.78 (16x9) 60" projection analog TV before DVD was released (bought DVD the day it was released and had to "import" my Warner titles).

Speaking of Heart: Not sure how rare it is but I have the original version of Magazine (77 release) which has different mixes and track numbers.
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post #200 of 430 Old 01-25-2008, 09:02 AM
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yeah i got to laugh sometimes when people complain about 400 and 500 dollar players
for hd and i remember what i payed for my first betamax,laserdisc player and my
vinyl rig.had most gone through those years they would realize what a bargain we
get now with the advancement in manufacturing and electronics.
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post #201 of 430 Old 01-25-2008, 10:50 AM
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yeah i got to laugh sometimes when people complain about 400 and 500 dollar players for hd and i remember what i payed for my first betamax,laserdisc player and my vinyl rig.had most gone through those years they would realize what a bargain we get now with the advancement in manufacturing and electronics.

For your nostalgic pleasure here is some items that I purchased and used through the years. It would be interesting to see some of these prices inflation adjusted for 2008. For example what wold the Crown amp cost today in terms of 1972 (700.00) dollars?

1972 - Crown DC-300 Audio Power Amplifier- $700.00
1972 - Crown IC-150 Audio Pre-Amplifier- $300.00
1973 - Heath AJ-1510 FM Tuner - $560.00
1973 - Empire Turntable & Cartridge - $300.00
1978 - Teac 3340 4-Channel Reel-to-Reel Audio Recorder - $1200.00
1985 - Sony Beta Hi-Fi Recorder - $1200.00
1985 - Pioneer CLD-900 Laserdisc Player - $1100.00
1985 - Kloss Nova Beam Video Projector - $2500.00
1986 - Panasonic VHS Hi-Fi Recorder - $600.00
1987 - NEC PLD-910 Dolby Pro-Logic Decoder - $700.00
1988 - NEC AVX-910 Audio Video Switcher - $500.00
1994 - RCA DirecTV Satellite Receiver - $550.00
1997 - Sony Dolby Digital Decoder - $450.00
1997 - Sony DVD Player - $950.00
1998 - RCA DirecTV Satellite Receiver - $350.00
2003 - JVC HM-DH30000 D-VHS D-Theater Machine - $500.00
2004 - JVC DILA HX1U Video Projector - $8000.00

(Purchased from the owners of this board)
2004 - Dish Network 6000 Satellite Receiver - $500.00
2004 - Dish Network 811 Satellite Receiver - $300.00
2005 - JVC HM-DH5U D-VHS D-Theater Machine - $500.00
2006 - Outlaw Audio 700 Audio Processor - $700.00
2006 - Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-ray Disc™ Player - $1000.00
2006 - Universal Remote Control Model MX–850 - $300.00 The Kloss had three projection tubes that had to be replaced every few years - they were ≈ $300.00 each for Rebuilt. The JVC lamp is about ≈ $375.00 and I will soon install my second lamp.

The Dish Network satellite receivers were outright purchases. After 3 years use they were rendered useless (for me) by Dish because of the method of HD delivery. It says they have a right to do this in the fine print.

Bottom line, it is expensive to play in the world of HD.

To All Readers: Please, no “You are the exception to the rule” statements. Like most, I was just a working stiff for many years.
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post #202 of 430 Old 01-25-2008, 11:30 AM
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thats a good memory i could not began to remeber model no's but i had a few of those
also have been a working stiff all my life but the love of this hobby keeps my pocket
book unhappy at times but the family enjoys it so its priceless.
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post #203 of 430 Old 01-26-2008, 03:40 PM
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I was somewhat mad about the introduction of SD/MMCD/DVD. I wanted a better newer High Def format. Why was CE putting resources launching another SD format. I guess that is the reason I jumped on D-Theater, as I was dying for more HD. I had a couple of used old hivision tape decks and television at the time.. HDVS CRT projector, I used to trade those open reel tapes all the time, just for more HD!
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post #204 of 430 Old 01-26-2008, 05:13 PM
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I was somewhat mad about the introduction of SD/MMCD/DVD. I wanted a better newer High Def format. Why was CE putting resources launching another SD format. I guess that is the reason I jumped on D-Theater, as I was dying for more HD. I had a couple of used old hivision tape decks and television at the time.. HDVS CRT projector, I used to trade those open reel tapes all the time, just for more HD!

The thing that was REALLY scary was, when MMCD/SD were first announced, they were described as being 'slightly better than VHS" in picture quality - perhaps S-VHS quality. I had seen VCD, which was always described as "VHS quality", so knowing how bad that really was, I was scared!

Did you ever have W-VHS? If so, what did you think of it? When I saw it, I thought it was awesome although, at the time, I didn't know that it didn't really hold a candle to 'full-bandwidth' Hi-Vision.

Ty C. :-)
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post #205 of 430 Old 01-26-2008, 05:43 PM
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...Did you ever have W-VHS? If so, what did you think of it? When I saw it, I thought it was awesome although, at the time, I didn't know that it didn't really hold a candle to 'full-bandwidth' Hi-Vision.

I had a S-VHS player but don't remember a W-VHS. My S-VHS was a JVC Hi-Fi with a true digital freeze frame and digital effects with digital PiP. I paid over $1000 for it.

Edit: I googled and found what a W-VHS was: Basically an analog HD 1080i system that used component recording on a VHS tape. Used mainly in Japan for their failed analog MUSE HD OTA system.
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post #206 of 430 Old 01-26-2008, 07:21 PM
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When did D-VHS come out 1998? DVD was 1997? So that's only a year before a better system came. But I supose the flaws of VHS is all a lot saw
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post #207 of 430 Old 01-26-2008, 07:37 PM
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tape of any kind was too fragile and has a shelf life.
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post #208 of 430 Old 01-26-2008, 10:19 PM
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Edit: I googled and found what a W-VHS was: Basically an analog HD 1080i system that used component recording on a VHS tape. Used mainly in Japan for their failed analog MUSE HD OTA system.

MUSE is digital. The delivery system is analog.

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post #209 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 06:02 AM
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MUSE is digital. The delivery system is analog.

Yep - even the press makes the mistake of saying it's analog. It uses horizontal interlace (Dot-Interlace) to 'fold' a signal within itself - The 1950 CBS Field-Sequential Color TV system was planning to use Dot-Interlace in a desperate attempt to increase the horizontal resolution of their system - but in their case, since it was the early 1950's, they had to rely on the human eye to put the picture back together - there wasn't anything available that could do frame/field storage and motion compensation to reassemble the image - nor was there anything like pre-filtering to eliminate aliasing in the diagonal dimension.


I would like to see how a MUSE image from a Hi-Vision LD holds up when decoded and then re-encoded into VC-1 or AVC on HD-DVD or Blu-ray.

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post #210 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 06:23 AM
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I had a S-VHS player but don't remember a W-VHS. My S-VHS was a JVC Hi-Fi with a true digital freeze frame and digital effects with digital PiP. I paid over $1000 for it.

Edit: I googled and found what a W-VHS was: Basically an analog HD 1080i system that used component recording on a VHS tape. Used mainly in Japan for their failed analog MUSE HD OTA system.

W-VHS was originally meant to be the "Hi-Vision" successor to VHS and SuperVHS - a method of recording high-definition broadcasts in the home. However, JVC overpriced the metal tapes and the system was pretty much doomed to use as a pro format only. In Japan, it was sold to consumers but didn't receive huge sales - the format was simply too expensive. Plus, JVC crippled the units here in America - In Japan, VHS-Digital Audio was part of the format - here in America, VHS Hi-Fi only. The American deck was stripped of a tuner and other 'consumer' features. JVS doesn't even make W-VHS tape anymore - although Digital-S (D9 format) tapes are equivalent.

The W-VHS format, although a 1125 system, couldn't record the full horizontal resolution of the Hi-Vision format - it was about like VHS is to NTSC in quality. It had a horizontal luminance bandwidth of around 12 Mhz, which translates into about 350 TV Lines of horizontal resolution - the full Hi-Vision signal was around 600 lines. (High definition formats are measured as 29.9 horizontal lines per Megahertz of bandwidth. Standard def is 79.9 lines per Megahertz.)

W-VHS couldn't record MUSE broadcasts in their compressed form - they had to be decoded and recorded via the component inputs - and W-VHS is the only 'consumer' format ever made that had component inputs. It could also record 2 channels of high quality NTSC - which could also be used for recording full-bandwidth simultaneous 3D signals! No field-sequential recording was required. For NTSC it used a component Time-Compressed format with line-sequential recording of the chroma components.

If anyone wants the IEEE paper on W-VHS, PM me. It was a cool format and I wish I had one. A guy online from Japan sells them, but for MUCHO bucks! If I had one I'd get HD-DVD's and 'archive' them for my collection. BTW, W-VHS was in production from 1995 to 2001.

Here's info from the American W-VHS brochure:
Designed and built for today's higher image quality requirements, the versatile SR-W5 takes you into the new era of HDTV with HD (High Definition) mode recording and playback. In addition it offers extended NTSC SD (Standard Definition) component recording/playback S-VHS capability for smooth integration into existing installations.
Key Features

With 1,125 scanning lines, the HD signal delivers twice the image quality as the current NTSC signal. In order to faithfully capture the high-resolution HD image, the SR-W5 divides the HD signal in two with digital processing and directly records the separate signals on parallel tracks without using chrominance subcarrier down-conversion.
HD SuperSolid Direct Drive assures stable tape handling and incorporates a 3-layer construction rotary transformer to suppress interference from other channels. To further maximize the HD picture with higher efficiency, the SR-W5 has Sendust video heads with five separate layers to capture and reproduce the enormous volume of information contained in the HD signal.
Utilizing a TCI recording system, the SR-W5 offers extended (540 min. with WT-180 tape) high quality analog component recording and playback of current NTSC signals in the SD (Std Definition) mode. Like Betacam SP, the SR-W5 in SD mode records the luminance and chrominance signals in sequence, in different areas of the track, to eliminate mutual interference and the need to down-convert the chrominance subcarrier signal. Yields higher resolution and sharper, more natural color reproduction.
High quality record/playback of VHS and S-VHS is also offered. A high-precision Super Crystal Pro-head eliminates interference from adjacent tracks, while a full set of professional-level image enhancement technologies further contribute to master-quality pictures.
These include: New 3-D Super Color circuit to reduce color smear and color loss; precise 3-D Digital Y/C Separation circuit for more accurate separation of luminance and chrominance signals; a Video Input Select Function that helps maintain maximum image definition; and a new Hadamard Wide-Range 3-D digital processing circuit for high-precision noise reduction.
Edit functions include preroll editing, insert editing, audio dubbing (VHS/S-VHS only), retake, jog/shuttle control, variable speed playback and Random Assemble (RA) editing for automatic editing of up to eight pre-designated scenes.
Equipped with Sendust MIG (Metal In Gap) Hi-Fi heads which are designed for maximum performance with metal tapes and offers improved response in S-VHS mode as well. The Hi-Fi heads have a dynamic range of over 90 dB. and a frequency response from 20 Hz to 20k Hz. There is also a manual Hi-Fi audio level adjustment. Has one linear (normal) audio track for audio dubbing.
The system also offers Zero Cross-Switching Noise Reduction to eliminate Hi-Fi audio head switching noise and a dedicated audio capacitor to eliminate noise interference from other circuits.


Ty C. :-)
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