Things that make you go Hmmm. Laserdisc Versus HDM - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 05:52 AM
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One note about the MUSE-E system. Actually, a note first about the name... MUSE-E stood for Muse-Eight which meant "8-MHz", the final bandwidth of the compressed signal - NHK also sometimes said it stood for MUSE-Emission - the names were kinda like the early days of DVD - Digital VERSATILE Disc VS Digital VIDEO Disc. There was also a MUSE-T system - the "T" stood for "Transmission" and was a 16.2-MHz system to be used for high-quality transmissions from, say a remote truck to the studio. It didn't use any form of motion compensation, so it didn't suffer from motion artifacts and it could be re-encoded to MUSE-E without compromise. In addition, there was Narrow-MUSE, which fit within a 6-MHz American broadcast channel, NTSC Compatible MUSE-6, which hid additional detail in the letterbox bars and NTSC Compatible MUSE-9, which used one 6-MHz channel + one 3-MHz extension channel to add additional detail and extra channels of sound. MUSE-6 was submitted to the FCC as a single-channel, backwards compatible HDTV system, but really should be considered an EDTV system. The Japanese wouldn't apply the High Definition name to them, instead calling MUSE-6, MUSE-9 and Narrow MUSE "ATV" Advanced Television Systems.

Anyway, back to my first 'note' - MUSE-E's final decoded quality was very much dependent on the decoder - how much memory it had, etc... and decoders on the market in Japan varied quite a bit in quality. Also, around 1993 or so, the NHK came up with a major improvement to MUSE encoding - it added quite a bit of additional color resolution to moving areas of the image and greatly reduced aliasing in highly detailed parts of the image - this reduced aliasing allowed greater bandwidth to be broadcast - the signals were backwards compatible and existing decoders produced an image with fewer artifacts, but the additional resolution and color required a new decoder. Only one Hi-Vision LaserDisc was encoded using the improved MUSE-E system - that title was "A River Runs Through It". Here's a quote from a review of the MUSE LD of that title.

Quote:


Amazing, simply amazing! This is one disc I had the lowest expectations for and so far is the best looking MUSE Hi-Vision laserdisc I have seen to date. The picture is very bright and vivid, while catching all the little details one would expect out of High Definition video. The scenes featuring the stunning Montana Mountains and rivers as a backdrop is so jaw dropping you feel you are there. Colors are bold and vibrant while not appearing over saturated. There is a lot of picture detail in each scene including dark scenes.

I found this disc surpasses the DVD version in both picture detail and color space. MUSE compression artifacts are basically absent, and only the slightest amount of film grain is present. It amazes me and disappoints me other film titles aren’t like this. This wasn’t the last film transfer to be released in the MUSE Hi-Vision format, but it certainly is the best.

One thing that stands out with this film transfer over many of the other movie transfers is the flesh tones of the actors. Most of the MUSE Hi-Vision laserdiscs, the actors flesh tones always had a slight green tinge or hue to them. Not in this film, which clearly shows MUSE Hi-Vision laserdisc movies can look outstanding. This is the bench mark for the movie category of this format, and it’s rather sad to see other film transfers fall short.

The Hi-Vision LaserDisc's, as a rule, look poor because the companies were not using Flying Spot Scanners then - they were using 'film-chains', which was a High-Definition camera pointed at a screen. The DVD of "Jurassic Park" uses the same tranfer as the MUSE LD, and boy-oh-boy, can you tell - it looks quite 'analog' and nothing like a good telecine transfer should. Yet, it has pretty much the same amount of detail as the Hi-Vision LaserDisc! Universal really dropped the ball on that DVD - and the audio, even the DTS DVD, didn't use the original theatrical master like the DTS LaserDisc did. It was a very disappointing release! And some DVD's, like "Close Encounters" actually look BETTER than their Hi-Vision counterparts, with more visible detail!

Ty C. :-)
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post #212 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 11:38 AM
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I still have W-VHS, I still use it occasionally rotating between 30 or so blanks. Most of the blanks I have are D9/Digital-S, but have a few W-VHS tapes. Was using them mostly before HD PVR were on the market, pre 2002. Still used them for HD DVD, BD, MUSE LD, D-Theater D-VHS, HDVS open reel copies. Mostly out of convince as it's sometimes a pain to use the other formats. example HDVS is a pain to load, MUSE LD platter changes and audio outputs, D-Theater tracking errors, HD DVD combo disc errors and BD-J load times, etc. This is for frequently watched material.

As for quality if you don't mind analog compression noise, it's a perfectly fine format. The noise is not too bother some on film material, but most noticeable when there is overlaid text and sold colour graphics on the screen.
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post #213 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

One note about the MUSE-E system. Actually, a note first about the name... MUSE-E stood for Muse-Eight which meant "8-MHz", the final bandwidth of the compressed signal - NHK also sometimes said it stood for MUSE-Emission - the names were kinda like the early days of DVD - Digital VERSATILE Disc VS Digital VIDEO Disc. There was also a MUSE-T system - the "T" stood for "Transmission" and was a 16.2-MHz system to be used for high-quality transmissions from, say a remote truck to the studio. It didn't use any form of motion compensation, so it didn't suffer from motion artifacts and it could be re-encoded to MUSE-E without compromise. In addition, there was Narrow-MUSE, which fit within a 6-MHz American broadcast channel, NTSC Compatible MUSE-6, which hid additional detail in the letterbox bars and NTSC Compatible MUSE-9, which used one 6-MHz channel + one 3-MHz extension channel to add additional detail and extra channels of sound. MUSE-6 was submitted to the FCC as a single-channel, backwards compatible HDTV system, but really should be considered an EDTV system. The Japanese wouldn't apply the High Definition name to them, instead calling MUSE-6, MUSE-9 and Narrow MUSE "ATV" Advanced Television Systems.

Anyway, back to my first 'note' - MUSE-E's final decoded quality was very much dependent on the decoder - how much memory it had, etc... and decoders on the market in Japan varied quite a bit in quality. Also, around 1993 or so, the NHK came up with a major improvement to MUSE encoding - it added quite a bit of additional color resolution to moving areas of the image and greatly reduced aliasing in highly detailed parts of the image - this reduced aliasing allowed greater bandwidth to be broadcast - the signals were backwards compatible and existing decoders produced an image with fewer artifacts, but the additional resolution and color required a new decoder. Only one Hi-Vision LaserDisc was encoded using the improved MUSE-E system - that title was "A River Runs Through It". Here's a quote from a review of the MUSE LD of that title.

The Hi-Vision LaserDisc's, as a rule, look poor because the companies were not using Flying Spot Scanners then - they were using 'film-chains', which was a High-Definition camera pointed at a screen. The DVD of "Jurassic Park" uses the same tranfer as the MUSE LD, and boy-oh-boy, can you tell - it looks quite 'analog' and nothing like a good telecine transfer should. Yet, it has pretty much the same amount of detail as the Hi-Vision LaserDisc! Universal really dropped the ball on that DVD - and the audio, even the DTS DVD, didn't use the original theatrical master like the DTS LaserDisc did. It was a very disappointing release! And some DVD's, like "Close Encounters" actually look BETTER than their Hi-Vision counterparts, with more visible detail!

Finally there is some science coming back to this board!

Thank you Disclord, for your valuable information about the Muse system. You corrected some misinformation I had about the system.

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post #214 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tkmedia2 View Post

...

As for quality if you don't mind analog compression noise, it's a perfectly fine format. The noise is not too bother some on film material, but most noticeable when there is overlaid text and sold colour graphics on the screen.

Let me chime in here. Muse has weaknesses in dark and noisy areas. Therefore films like "Close Encounters" and "Dracula" look worse than what I would expect from a HD transfer. But a good number of movies and "scenery discs" preserve the analog look of the film source quite nicely.

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post #215 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tteich View Post

Let me chime in here. Muse has weaknesses in dark and noisy areas. Therefore films like "Close Encounters" and "Dracula" look worse than what I would expect from a HD transfer. But a good number of movies and "scenery discs" preserve the analog look of the film source quite nicely.

The NHK, and every company involved with with MUSE encoding/decoding, have a bazillion patents dedicated to solving the problem of noise in dark areas of the MUSE image. But, from what you and tkmedia2 write, it sounds like they never really implemented them - it might be like good deinterlacing - per-pixel motion-compensated methods of deinterlacing are widely patented by the Japanese companies, but it is so expensive and difficult to do in actual 'consumer-cost' equipment that - well - just look at what's available on the market - if it doesn't say Faroudja or HQV, it's probably not very good at all.

I NEVER thought, when progressive-scan DVD players first came out, that we would get to 2008 and the vast majority of equipment would still have sub-standard deinterlacing. I figured it would be 'old-hat' by now. Heck, the NHK's Hi-Vision Television book has lots of stuff about their work on motion-compensated deinterlacing for conversion from NTSC to Hi-Vision. I didn't imagine that it would never 'really happen.'

Ty C. :-)
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post #216 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tteich View Post

Finally there is some science coming back to this board!

Thank you Disclord, for your valuable information about the Muse system. You corrected some misinformation I had about the system.

You are welcome!
I always strive to have and provide accurate information - and when I'm mistaken, I WANT to be corrected - it seems like nowdays, sadly, many people 'know what they know', science-and-facts-be-damned!

What kind of misinformation did you have about MUSE?

BTW, here's what an un-decoded MUSE-E signal looks like. You can see the 4-channel DANCE-encoded digital audio data, the line-sequential chroma and the luminance information - the total signal is 480 pixels wide by 1125 pixels high with each field being 562.5 lines.

Ty C. :-)
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post #217 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 03:10 PM
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I still have W-VHS, I still use it occasionally rotating between 30 or so blanks. Most of the blanks I have are D9/Digital-S, but have a few W-VHS tapes. Was using them mostly before HD PVR were on the market, pre 2002. Still used them for HD DVD, BD, MUSE LD, D-Theater D-VHS, HDVS open reel copies. Mostly out of convince as it's sometimes a pain to use the other formats. example HDVS is a pain to load, MUSE LD platter changes and audio outputs, D-Theater tracking errors, HD DVD combo disc errors and BD-J load times, etc. This is for frequently watched material.

As for quality if you don't mind analog compression noise, it's a perfectly fine format. The noise is not too bother some on film material, but most noticeable when there is overlaid text and sold colour graphics on the screen.

You mentioned the combo-disc errors of HD-DVD - I must be really lucky because I still haven't had a single problem - not on my A2 or on any standard DVD player - not even my first generation Pioneer DVL-700! Tony's dad hasn't had trouble either, at least, not that I know of. I wonder what the deal with it is?

Tony's dad brought over his JVC D-Theater unit - the D5 I believe? - anyway, we had 2 tapes - Day After Tomorrow and I, Robot - I had bought I, Robot and unwrapped it that night - I was shocked at the drop-outs both tapes displayed. I've never seen drop-out problems like that, not even from S-VHS, which itself is a drop-out prone format. Did JVC do something different with the transports in D-Theater units or something? My JVC HR-S9900 has an incredibly gentle transport (with Dynamic Drum tracking!) so I wonder why something like that wasn't used in the D-Theater units... the tapes seem to wear quickly in D-Theater too.

I wish there was some way I could get some dubs of Hi-Vision MUSE LaserDisc stuff from you.

The movie "Julia & Julia" was shot in Hi-Vision with Sony's HDVS equipment - specifically, the HDD-1000 open-reel unit you have. I don't know if that film is on DVD or not - I recall a review of it from Video Magazine saying that Hi-Vision was NOT the future of films and that High-Definition should NEVER replace film!

Ty C. :-)
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post #218 of 430 Old 01-27-2008, 04:10 PM
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I never really have that many problems with drop outs on D-theater. Maybe at most one glitch every 2 hour movie. I can go thru 3-4 movies without one "glitch" sometimes. but they are always in different areas, which leads me to believe it's a tracking issue. Every single one of the dropout's i've seen that are in the same place have been due to tape failures. Just bad spots on the tapes. They can be reproduced on every deck, with different decoders or mix and match transport and decoders. I always have problems with the JVC D-VHS tapes that are used for manufacturing D-Theater. I've had many blank tapes from other manufactures that do not display any issues what so ever. Also the decks need to have super clean heads, and a lot of times manual tracking mode is better than the auto. But they have to be adjusted for each tape.
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post #219 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

You are welcome!
I always strive to have and provide accurate information - and when I'm mistaken, I WANT to be corrected - it seems like nowdays, sadly, many people 'know what they know', science-and-facts-be-damned!

What kind of misinformation did you have about MUSE?

BTW, here's what an un-decoded MUSE-E signal looks like. You can see the 4-channel DANCE-encoded digital audio data, the line-sequential chroma and the luminance information - the total signal is 480 pixels wide by 1125 pixels high with each field being 562.5 lines.

I always thought that Muse is completely analog, but you suggest that there is some kind of digital encoding involved in the video path (I know, audio is a different thing). I got a good number of technical papers from a buddy (who probably reads/posts on AVS as well).

I own a good number of Muse LDs, decoders (3), and players (2), and I can confirm that picture quality is greatly dependent on the effort put into players and decoders (mainly decoders).

Btw.: the book is mine now

Btw(2): Have you ever seen the Sub-Nyquist signal "in action"? :


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post #220 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 04:56 AM
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Before I got the Hi-Vision book, I thought MUSE was 100% analog too - I mean, that's how it was ALWAYS referred to in the press. They never said that the component Hi-Vision signal was digitized and from there all processing was digital. The Time-Compressed and sub-sampled digital Hi-Vision signal is then converted back to analog with an 8.1 MHz bandwidth and broadcast as a PAM FM signal.

I wonder if the vast majority of the people who wrote about MUSE even knew it was digital?

Since MUSE decoding wasn't a 'set' process like, say VC-1, each company could decode the signal in their own 'unique' way - with varying quality results. From what I've read, a lot of Hi-Vision televisions with MUSE built-in didn't have full-bandwidth MUSE decoders. It seems, from reading brochures and stuff, that the late model MUSE decoders finally strived to implement all the features of the system, including the MUSE-II color/resolution improvements.

Oh, and nope, I've never seen MUSE - I've seen HD-MAC on LaserDisc - boy, was it poor! Of course, HD-MAC was a mess of an HD standard - too complex and hindered by the backwards MAC compatibility forced into it.

BTW, what's the picture from? I'm glad you got the book - it's great!

Ty C. :-)
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post #221 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 06:53 AM
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This thread is fantastic. I really enjoy talk about the old formats. And I'm not letting go of my thousands of LPs either.

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of buying the Sony LD player. It just didn't have the quality of the Pioneer.

Does anyone know which, if any, of the LD machines got past composite to s-video or even component outputs?
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post #222 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

...Does anyone know which, if any, of the LD machines got past composite to s-video or even component outputs?

The LD format is in composite. So any S-video or component output requires a comb filter.
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post #223 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:18 AM
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The LD format is in composite. So any S-video or component output requires a comb filter.

Thanks. I guess that would mean results would vary (probably degrade the signal), depending on the quality of the comb filter.

I really did like LD audio, by the way. I have always felt that CD audio is overly compressed.

Was there ever any consideration of using LD for some audio only releases?
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post #224 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:27 AM
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I never recall LD having audio only format but their were several 8" LDs that had just music videos on them. So one could playback just the audio. Which I've done with a few of mine.

I found the regular 12" laserdiscs had mostly concerts on them. I've got sevral if not all alice cooper LDs.
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post #225 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:37 AM
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I have a few CD Video discs (not to be confused with Video CD ). They are a hybrid CD/LD format that contain about 20 minutes of music plus 1 video.
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post #226 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

Before I got the Hi-Vision book, I thought MUSE was 100% analog too - I mean, that's how it was ALWAYS referred to in the press. They never said that the component Hi-Vision signal was digitized and from there all processing was digital. The Time-Compressed and sub-sampled digital Hi-Vision signal is then converted back to analog with an 8.1 MHz bandwidth and broadcast as a PAM FM signal.

I wonder if the vast majority of the people who wrote about MUSE even knew it was digital?

Since MUSE decoding wasn't a 'set' process like, say VC-1, each company could decode the signal in their own 'unique' way - with varying quality results. From what I've read, a lot of Hi-Vision televisions with MUSE built-in didn't have full-bandwidth MUSE decoders. It seems, from reading brochures and stuff, that the late model MUSE decoders finally strived to implement all the features of the system, including the MUSE-II color/resolution improvements.

Oh, and nope, I've never seen MUSE - I've seen HD-MAC on LaserDisc - boy, was it poor! Of course, HD-MAC was a mess of an HD standard - too complex and hindered by the backwards MAC compatibility forced into it.

BTW, what's the picture from? I'm glad you got the book - it's great!

The picture is like a full-house in a poker game. It shows parts of the time compressed signal which remained in the decoder memory when we switched the chapter on a Muse-LD. The probability to regenerate this exact picture is nearly zero . Don't remember from which title this scene is (probably Close Encounters). Friends of mine an I did extensive testing with different players, decoders, and we had almost every Muse LD which was ever produced in one room. I took the picture during that session, and we realized afterwards what it is.

The specifications that I have in my hands contains lots of technical details about how the analog signal is constructed, with all the sideband folding and so on, but a considerable part of the signal seem to be digital information which define what the decoder has to do with the upcoming color signals. So it's a kind of combined analog and digital system.

Worth to note is that NHK developed a good number of improvements to the standard over the years, which resulted in up to 4, if not 5 generations of decoders. The Pioneer HM-D101, as 2nd gen decoder contains a whole lot of PCBs, whereas the Panasonic TU-MDC100, as 4th gen / last stand-alone decoder, is fully integrated, and that one produces an awesome picture quality and the best colors possible from a Muse-LD.

Edit: and, yes, HD-MAC was a terrible attempt to invent the wheel again, an example of incompetence paired with arrogance, so it was doomed from the beginning. They better had taken the NHK system as jump-start.

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post #227 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:53 AM
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Thanks. I guess that would mean results would vary (probably degrade the signal), depending on the quality of the comb filter.

I really did like LD audio, by the way. I have always felt that CD audio is overly compressed.

Was there ever any consideration of using LD for some audio only releases?

I've the same impression. If I'm not completely wrong, digital sound on LD was PCM, up to 96kHz. DTS on LDs has also higher bitrates than their DVD counterparts.

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post #228 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 07:55 AM
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afaik, PCM audio on LD is the same as PCM audio on a CD (16 bit, 44.1 kHz, uncompressed)

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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

afaik, PCM audio on LD is the same as PCM audio on a CD (16 bit, 44.1 kHz, uncompressed)

While thinking it over again, you are right. I somehow had a setting of one of my players in mind which allowed to set the output sampling rate to "up to 96kHz". That confused me.

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post #230 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tteich View Post

The picture is like a full-house in a poker game. It shows parts of the time compressed signal which remained in the decoder memory when we switched the chapter on a Muse-LD. The probability to regenerate this exact picture is nearly zero . Don't remember from which title this scene is (probably Close Encounters). Friends of mine an I did extensive testing with different players, decoders, and we had almost every Muse LD which was ever produced in one room. I took the picture during that session, and we realized afterwards what it is.

The specifications that I have in my hands contains lots of technical details about how the analog signal is constructed, with all the sideband folding and so on, but a considerable part of the signal seem to be digital information which define what the decoder has to do with the upcoming color signals. So it's a kind of combined analog and digital system.

Worth to note is that NHK developed a good number of improvements to the standard over the years, which resulted in up to 4, if not 5 generations of decoders. The Pioneer HM-D101, as 2nd gen decoder contains a whole lot of PCBs, whereas the Panasonic TU-MDC100, as 4th gen / last stand-alone decoder, is fully integrated, and that one produces an awesome picture quality and the best colors possible from a Muse-LD.

Edit: and, yes, HD-MAC was a terrible attempt to invent the wheel again, an example of incompetence paired with arrogance, so it was doomed from the beginning. They better had taken the NHK system as jump-start.

The only analog part is the actual transmission - ALL the compression - the creation of the TCI signal, the sub-sampling (dot-interlacing/spectrum folding), motion compensation and still/motion pixel mixing - is done digitally. Here's a diagram of a MUSE encoder - I've shadowed all the digital operations in pink - ignore the darker pink - it was just because I overlapped in Photoshop. As you can see, all of MUSE is digital except for transmission - and that could be digital if the bandwidth were available - the Hi-Vision book has several articles about digitally transmitting the MUSE-E or MUSE-T signal.


If you read patents, let me know and I'll send you the patent numbers of various MUSE schemes, including the MUSE-II color/motion resolution improvement patent. As for HD-MAC, it seems like stuff always turns out that way in Europe - too many cooks in the kitchen - and no one is thrown out because we mustn't offend anyone! I mean, how many MAC systems are there??? And then there was the PalPlus "Directive", the 16:9 "Action Plan" - it always sounds like something the government of Oceania in 1984 would come up with.

Ty C. :-)
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post #231 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

afaik, PCM audio on LD is the same as PCM audio on a CD (16 bit, 44.1 kHz, uncompressed)

Yes, it IS the same exact signal as on a CD - the RF output of the EFM modulator from the CD encoder is just slapped together with the modulated Audio and Video carriers and sent to the LaserDisc modulator. The CD signal doesn't even have a carrier. From reading Philips' original paper about it (from 1983!), I get the impression that a Philips engineer was just sitting there one day looking at a CD's RF spectrum on a display and thought, "Hmmmm... that looks the same size as the empty space at the bottom of the LD spectrum..."

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post #232 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by homerx View Post

I never recall LD having audio only format but their were several 8" LDs that had just music videos on them. So one could playback just the audio. Which I've done with a few of mine.

I found the regular 12" laserdiscs had mostly concerts on them. I've got sevral if not all alice cooper LDs.

There was also Pioneer's failed "CLD" concept... the "Compact Laser Disc" although it was a 12-inch disc... there were, I believe, 5 titles released before Pioneer abandoned it. For $14.95, you got a LaserDisc that had 2 or 3 videos PLUS the audio-only album in digital sound - the album-part was accompanied by a graphic of the album cover with the title of the song playing on the screen... it burnt images in Pioneer's new Big-Screens of the time on showroom floors!

RCA and Polygram were involved but it turned out Pioneer hadn't properly secured the rights to the album-only part of the disc and they discontinued the whole thing. A typical Pioneer exercise for LaserDisc...

Starship (Knee Deep In The Hoopla), A-Ha (Hunting High And Low) and three other "CLD" titles were released. I have those two titles - Starship has 2 videos and the album and A-Ha has 3 videos and the album. Unlike any other American LD release, the CLD's had Japanese "Obi" strips on them explaining what they were! I wish I had kept the Obi's from mine.

These came out maybe a year before Philips whole CD-Video mess happened.

Ty C. :-)
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Originally Posted by Disclord View Post

The only analog part is the actual transmission - ALL the compression - the creation of the TCI signal, the sub-sampling (dot-interlacing/spectrum folding), motion compensation and still/motion pixel mixing - is done digitally. Here's a diagram of a MUSE encoder - I've shadowed all the digital operations in pink - ignore the darker pink - it was just because I overlapped in Photoshop. As you can see, all of MUSE is digital except for transmission - and that could be digital if the bandwidth were available - the Hi-Vision book has several articles about digitally transmitting the MUSE-E or MUSE-T signal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning your statements. It's just that (til now) I've been under the impression that the first encoders were analog-only (and did not employ motion detection). The sub-band generation and filtering can be done in the analog domain. Now I'm anxiously waiting for the book

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post #234 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tteich View Post
Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning your statements. It's just that (til now) I've been under the impression that the first encoders were analog-only (and did not employ motion detection). The sub-band generation and filtering can be done in the analog domain. Now I'm anxiously waiting for the book
I understand what you are saying, but it has always been digital - MUSE, in the beginning (circa 1984), had different sampling rates and such, but it's always been digital and had digital motion detection and sub-sampling... that diagram I posted comes from NHK's 1987 IEEE paper introducing MUSE. Problem is, the NHK has always called it an "analog transmission system", which it is - PAM signals carried in an analog (FM) form - but the actual coding/spectrum folding and such has always been digital.

Have I sent you any tech papers? I have some very early stuff - the 1970's from NHK - going into initial transmission concepts - they, at one point, were considering an AM-based Composite Half-Line-Offset PAL system! It had like 24-MHz of bandwidth! Then TCI (Time-Compression-Integration) for FM satellite - then, around 1984, MUSE came about with digital processing.

One thing I HATE about posts like this - just 'reading' these posts - the back and forth between us - "looks" like there is some argument or something when that is NOT the case - just sharing of information. Sometimes I think that's why so many people end up 'forum enemy's' on AVS.

One thing that is funny about MUSE is, back in the day, MUSE was always said to be MUCH, MUCH too complex and relied too much on expensive memory chips and stuff - in other words, it was so complex the cost would never really come down to allow a mass-market high-definition system... Now we have stuff like VC-1 available on super-low cost HD-DVD and Blu-ray players - and cheap media - and MUSE looks elementarily simple by comparison! I think a MUSE encoder/decoder could be built easily in software with todays processors and memory available on home PC's.

Oh, I found a MUSE paper that will fit on AVS Forum - this gives info on NarrowMUSE, MUSE-6 and MUSE-9 - all three formats were meant for OTA broadcast in America. The NHK didn't really like MUSE-6 - when ClearVision and Wide ClearVision were in development in Japan, NHK didn't even bother with trying to get MUSE-6 accepted.

BTW, I can't wait till you get the book - then we can chat about all the cool stuff in it! I've never known anyone else with it.

 

MUSE Family Development.pdf 499.29296875k . file

Ty C. :-)
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I enjoy exchanging information and knowledge about the system with you (that's exactly what this message ping-pong is in my eyes). Will pm you about some tech paper exchange.

I hope other readers don't get tired about this kind of posts

Laserdiscs: ~350
HiVision LDs: 42
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post #236 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tteich View Post

I enjoy exchanging information and knowledge about the system with you (that's exactly what this message ping-pong is in my eyes). Will pm you about some tech paper exchange.

I hope other readers don't get tired about this kind of posts

Remeber a bunch of us are also following the ping pong match . I just don't have much to add. I owned two players and about 50 discs, but I got into the game fairly late ('94) and never learned much about it. Keep up the history though.

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post #237 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tteich View Post

I enjoy exchanging information and knowledge about the system with you (that's exactly what this message ping-pong is in my eyes). Will pm you about some tech paper exchange.

I hope other readers don't get tired about this kind of posts

Yes, I totally agree - I have so much fun learning about this stuff and just talking about it in general - I wish someone who actually designed/engineered the MUSE system was around to chime-in and educate us further. Kind of like Amir, formerly of Microsoft, does about VC-1. I mean, we have yours, and others, first-hand experience with the system and then we have access to technical papers - so someone who actually designed the stuff would be fantastic, you know?

BTW, this is off the MUSE subject, but I was going through some of my old DTS stuff, from when I was working for them, and it's a riot! Press-releases with all kinds of inaccurate info on Dolby VS DTS - misleading statements about encoding costs, bitrates, etc... plus Brad Miller's initial press release on his DTS CD's - he had Pink Floyd's Dark Side... and Atom Heart... both listed and catalog numbers assigned. I had forgotten he tried to get them for DTS CD release. I also found a nice picture of DTS' original prototype consumer encoder - it was called DTS "Zeta 6x20" then, which was the name DTS gave the ARTEC compression system when they bought it outright from the APT-X100 company. People think that either DTS designed DTS Digital Surround or that they had it designed for them - it was neither - like APT-X100 used in the theatrical DTS-6 system, they found it, already finished, and bought it outright. Then, additional features were added to the ARTEC/ZETA 6x20/Coherent Acoustics/Digital Surround system where and when needed to keep up with AC-3's features. I found a DTS-Coherent Acoustics logo too - I don't think they've ever used that logo publicly... As usual, if anyones interested I'll scan and post the stuff here.

Ty C. :-)
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post #238 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by larrimore View Post

Remeber a bunch of us are also following the ping pong match . I just don't have much to add. I owned two players and about 50 discs, but I got into the game fairly late ('94) and never learned much about it. Keep up the history though.

What do you mean you don't have much to add??? You owned it, so what do you think of it? Thoughts on picture quality? Compared to current formats??? Please, always chime in, even if it's just blah-blah-blah... I've never seen MUSE LD's so I want info from as many people as possible about how they looked and stuff. It's exciting!

Ty C. :-)
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post #239 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tteich View Post

Worth to note is that NHK developed a good number of improvements to the standard over the years, which resulted in up to 4, if not 5 generations of decoders. The Pioneer HM-D101, as 2nd gen decoder contains a whole lot of PCBs, whereas the Panasonic TU-MDC100, as 4th gen / last stand-alone decoder, is fully integrated, and that one produces an awesome picture quality and the best colors possible from a Muse-LD.

So is my current Sony MST-1000 a first generation decoder?

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post #240 of 430 Old 01-28-2008, 04:09 PM
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So is my current Sony MST-1000 a first generation decoder?


Oh, boy, that's a beauty!

From N$A's pages:
History of Sony Muse decoders:
- Dec 90: MST-1000, tuner, decoder and converter, MSRP 1800k¥
- Oct 92: MST-2000, tuner, decoder and converter, gold, side wood, MSRP 750k¥
- Oct 94: MSC-3000, same as 4000, buttons labeled in English, side wood, MSRP 280k¥
- Mar 96: MSC-4000, decoder only (see above), black, MSRP 198k¥

Do you have a Sony Hi-Vision LD player? If not, which other brand? If Sony, were their Hi-Vision LD players as bad as their standard LD players? Of course, I don't know anything about their Japanese market players - I have their Pioneer LD-700 clone (the industrial LaserMax), which is still a superb player and had, at various times, Sony's other domestic LD players, all of which were dogs. Only Pioneer could make a player that tracked well with optimum picture quality. I fought with Panasonic for MONTHS trying to get their top of the line LX-1000u Prism player to track CLV/CAA titles correctly - the head LD tech for Matsushita US finally told me that Pioneer had been consulted by them and REFUSED to help out in any way. Building an LD player wasn't just 'building to the specs' - a little bit of 'magic know-how' was needed too, which Pioneer had and flat out wouldn't share. Remember those dog-of-a-player's from Hitachi, Zenith, Radio Shack, etc...? Oh, there was one good Philips player - the CDV-488 - but it was built by Pioneer for them - a custom design though. I loved mine - till it broke and Philips couldn't repair it.

Ty C. :-)
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