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post #1 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't get it!! When I am watching HD DVD and the movie is finished, I sometimes switch over to HDTV. What a huge difference in HDTV picture quality. Besides not having the black bars top and bottom, the picture is also full frame, much clearer and the colors are richer.

I am not scrimping on my equipment or connects. I have an Anthem D2 and JVC RS1 front projector on a 120" screen. I realize that my Toshiba HD A3 player only gives out 1080i, but my projector can easily deinterlace, no problem. I have a Bell Express Vu (dish) HD satellite receiver. Everything is connected with HDMI cables. I have my processor set to 1920x 1080 resolution at 60 Hz. I find 24 Hz makes the picture jutter.

Is anyone else experiencing this?
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post #2 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

I don't get it!! When I am watching HD DVD and the movie is finished, I sometimes switch over to HDTV. What a huge difference in HDTV picture quality. Besides not having the black bars top and bottom, the picture is also full frame, much clearer and the colors are richer.

What exactly are you comparing in terms of HD DVD movies and HDTV shows?


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Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

Is anyone else experiencing this?

The Blu-ray movies I have seen are better encoded than either DirecTV HD channels or OTA HD channels. If though you are comparing a grainy HD movie to a digital recording even if the grainy movie is better encoded it may not look as good. As such it is important to know what you are comparing in terms of HD material.
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post #3 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 07:38 PM
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Ah, perhaps the telecine transfer from (ugh) analog film versus the always digital signal acquired by HD video camera?
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post #4 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

I don't get it!! When I am watching HD DVD and the movie is finished, I sometimes switch over to HDTV. What a huge difference in HDTV picture quality. Besides not having the black bars top and bottom, the picture is also full frame, much clearer and the colors are richer.

I am not scrimping on my equipment or connects. I have an Anthem D2 and JVC RS1 front projector on a 120" screen. I realize that my Toshiba HD A3 player only gives out 1080i, but my projector can easily deinterlace, no problem. I have a Bell Express Vu (dish) HD satellite receiver. Everything is connected with HDMI cables. I have my processor set to 1920x 1080 resolution at 60 Hz. I find 24 Hz makes the picture jutter.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

First the black bars. The black bars are there so that all of the visual part of the movie as originally shot is displayed. Modern films are shot in "widescreen" modes like panavision.

TV shows are shot in 16:9 so there are no black bars on HD TV.

I have HDTV Over the Air (OTA) from a rooftop antenna feed. The Picture Quality is superb.

HDTV is shot such that 60 frames per second is in sync with the refresh rates of most displays. Film is shot at 24 frames per second so must be cadenced to sync with 60 hz displays. Feeding your display 24 hz and getting jutter (judder) means your display is not up to snuff at 3:2 pulldown. What are you using that will allow you to feed your display 24 hz? Certainly not the A3 as that does 1080i 60.

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post #5 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 07:43 PM
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Try one of the HD Shows on HDM.

Planet Earth for example, it should look at least as good as the broadcast.

If you want advice on certain movies that look great or have that '3d pop' you are looking for you might just want to look at the tier threads.
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post #6 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 07:45 PM
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Maybe you have different settings for the dish versus HD DVD player? The former could have higher contrast or color saturation.

As for bars, that is intentional . That is the way the original movie is. Broadcast people zoom in to get rid of the bars and in the process, lose a chunk of the image and soften the video to boot.

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post #7 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 08:09 PM
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I can't imagine getting better picture from Bell than HD or BD. The bit rates are much, much lower, and some channels are transmitted at 720p

Although I don't have Bell, I do get three of their transmitted channels (CTV, CBC and City) OTA and none compares in quality to disk.

What channels are you watching on ExpressVu that have better quality than HD/BD?

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post #8 of 40 Old 01-28-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

I don't get it!! When I am watching HD DVD and the movie is finished, I sometimes switch over to HDTV. What a huge difference in HDTV picture quality. Besides not having the black bars top and bottom, the picture is also full frame, much clearer and the colors are richer.

I am not scrimping on my equipment or connects. I have an Anthem D2 and JVC RS1 front projector on a 120" screen. I realize that my Toshiba HD A3 player only gives out 1080i, but my projector can easily deinterlace, no problem. I have a Bell Express Vu (dish) HD satellite receiver. Everything is connected with HDMI cables. I have my processor set to 1920x 1080 resolution at 60 Hz. I find 24 Hz makes the picture jutter.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

There are more than a few things that don't sit right with your post, the least of which is the fact that someone with your equipment is unaware that the "black bars" a 2.35:1 (or other widescreen) film will display is, in most hi-def circles desirable, at least when compared to the alternative option.

I'm afraid that this little tidbit alone is enough to cast a shadow of suspicion on your observations.

I hope you are able to figure it all out.

Cheers
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post #9 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 07:55 AM
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There is so much macroblocking on OTA and Cable/Sat HD channels, that I don't understand how anyone can think it looks better than HD DVD or BD

Obviously the Super Bowl will look amazing, but does anyone actually think that if the Super Bowl was on an HD DVD or BD, that it would look worse than the broadcast of it?


If you don't like bars on your movies, better stick with HBOHD

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post #10 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 08:05 AM
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It's hard for me not to call troll on this. It just seems to weird to be truthful.

I have Rogers HD cable and the picture looks great. I have a Optoma HD70 (720p) projector which is far from high end, but still puts out a great picture. I don't notice much macroblocking on HD tv shows and only seldomly on sports. The picture looks great, bright, colourful, sharp.

I also have an HDDVD player (HD-A2) and around 35 movies. For the most part, all of the top transfers that I own look better than anything on HD Cable. Some of the stuff on HDNet can rival it. For the most part, the best HD shows match the middle of the road HDDVD transfers. They cannot touch the top tier stuff.

Check your settings, recalibrate for PQ settings, cause if you thing the HDTV shows beat HDDVD, something is wrong.

BTW, what movies on HDDVD are you watching to compare?

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post #11 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha21 View Post

There is so much macroblocking on OTA and Cable/Sat HD channels, that I don't understand how anyone can think it looks better than HD DVD or BD

Not better perhaps but certainly just as good as for my OTA on many programs. And I must admit that since we TiVo all our programs, when watching something like the Today show, I can see when the local stations downrez the program or switch to SD for weather alerts or local weather reports etc. I don't see macroblocking on my setup, but I don't have any cable or satellite HD feed. Only SD on DirecTV going into DirecTiVos. We NEVER watch anything in real time, especially since I don't watch any of the kids games like that silly stupor bowl or whatever it is, and I think that it will be broadcast in Low Def Hi Def 720 P so there is no way it could be a good transfer to HD DVD or Blu, certainly not on my 1080P display.

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post #12 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

I don't get it!! When I am watching HD DVD and the movie is finished, I sometimes switch over to HDTV. What a huge difference in HDTV picture quality. Besides not having the black bars top and bottom, the picture is also full frame, much clearer and the colors are richer.

I am not scrimping on my equipment or connects. I have an Anthem D2 and JVC RS1 front projector on a 120" screen. I realize that my Toshiba HD A3 player only gives out 1080i, but my projector can easily deinterlace, no problem. I have a Bell Express Vu (dish) HD satellite receiver. Everything is connected with HDMI cables. I have my processor set to 1920x 1080 resolution at 60 Hz. I find 24 Hz makes the picture jutter.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

You would have to find the same movie showng on your HD service to really make a comparison.

Not real sure here. Most all of us, by the largest percentage imaginable still feel Blu-ray and HD-DVD take our HD services hands down on PQ and AQ. The bars are a good thing, it's the only way to watch a movie as it's suppose to be on your 16:9 screen.

It will be interesting to see what your response is.
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post #13 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 08:36 AM
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In terms of PQ, hi def discs have to be better. Same resolution, but higher bitrate and less compression. I've seen 2001 A Space Odyssey on HDNET movies and I also own the HD-DVD. HD-DVD looks much better, no macroblocking, compared to the HDNET version that had significant macroblocking in certain scenes.

On the other hand, IMHO, HD Video can look more impressive in terms of clarity and pop due to the absence of grain that typically accompanies movies, and the fact that HD video (16:9) fills the entire screen, so it is more dramatic. To me, late night TV shows like Letterman, and Leno look more impressive in terms of wow factor than a typical hollywood movie. Maybe my equipment is to blame (Sharp D62U 1080p60 panel, Toshiba $98 HD-DVD Walmart special)

I will be made fun of for this, but one of the best looking movies I've ever seen in any format in terms of clarity is Planes Trains and Automobiles on HDNET. No grain whatsoever, and you can see every detail of the actors faces, and in each set.

On that note, I hear all the time about how directors will use grain on purpose for theatrical reasons, or for effect. I never understood this. I personally get annoyed by grain. For example, even a movie like Transformers has enough grain to annoy me in certain scenes.
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post #14 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 08:48 AM
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I switch all the time from BD/HD DVD to ExpressVu sat, and, of course, the discs are much, much better overall.
However, there are many instances when a person can draw the wrong conclusion. If you watch, for example, a really crappy in terms of colour (and everything else) HD DVD like "Dazed and Confused", and the you switch to sat and come across a very colourful show like "Pushing Daisies" or a live hockey game on CBC, you can really become "dazed and confused" about which medium is better.
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post #15 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 06:44 PM
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I think the OP is dealing with a perception issue. Many newer movies are 2.35:1 so when you watch HDDVD or BD the pictrue uses less screen real estate casuing the image to look smaller and lacking in some areas, when you switch to HD TV you get the full screen real estate as it is 16x9 thus the images seem bigger. I do prefer content that fills the screen, but movies are headed toward 2.35:1 for anything with a decent budget. Too bad it makes my 58" plasma seem too small now. Honeslty the HDDVD and BD content I have and watch looks much clearer than the Dish NEtwork HD channels, especially since both SAT companies down rez anyway to 1440x1080i at max v.s 1920x1080 on BD/HD
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post #16 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

I don't get it!! When I am watching HD DVD and the movie is finished, I sometimes switch over to HDTV. What a huge difference in HDTV picture quality. Besides not having the black bars top and bottom, the picture is also full frame, much clearer and the colors are richer.

I am not scrimping on my equipment or connects. I have an Anthem D2 and JVC RS1 front projector on a 120" screen. I realize that my Toshiba HD A3 player only gives out 1080i, but my projector can easily deinterlace, no problem. I have a Bell Express Vu (dish) HD satellite receiver. Everything is connected with HDMI cables. I have my processor set to 1920x 1080 resolution at 60 Hz. I find 24 Hz makes the picture jutter.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

You have all that stuff that makes you seem you know what you are doing, yet you complain of black bars!!?

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post #17 of 40 Old 01-29-2008, 07:11 PM
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post #18 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 08:44 AM
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Hit and run so far for the OP here. If the OP is a no show today, I call total troll as well.
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post #19 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 09:13 AM
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Like jackc04 said earlier, I think (as long as not a troll) what the OP is talking about is the difference between Film and Video. I some what agree with the post. I too have gone from watching a HD movie on my A3 and switched to a HD channel on Dishnetwork that is showing a documentary that was done on video and there is a difference, the video has the looking through a window look, while film has the "film" look.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they are difference and that some people may prefer one over the other.
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post #20 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Hit and run so far for the OP here. If the OP is a no show today, I call total troll as well.


Exactly. I don't know why people do this. It just seems completely immature. But I guess the OP gets his jolies from us serious enthusiasts responding to him or her.

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post #21 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 12:32 PM
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Barry's other posts (both of them) seem genuine. Methinks he is a newbie that bought some good equipment and needs some help.

Barry-

If you are there, there is a lot of good info around here on the black bars. They are your friend. However, there are some good movies on HD DVD that don't have them. It depends on what they used when filming the movie.

As others have stated, there is a big difference in HD video and film based material. Here's what I recommend:

Watch a movie on one of your HD channels and then watch a movie on your HD DVD player. If the HD DVD player doesn't look better, something is most likely set wrong or connected wrong on your HD DVD player. Mine came out of the box set for good ole 480i. Maybe that's the problem. Come back and let us know, we'll help you out.

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post #22 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackc04 View Post

In terms of PQ, hi def discs have to be better. Same resolution, but higher bitrate and less compression. I've seen 2001 A Space Odyssey on HDNET movies and I also own the HD-DVD. HD-DVD looks much better, no macroblocking, compared to the HDNET version that had significant macroblocking in certain scenes.

I have a friend who bought my XA1 HD DVD, and was truly impressed with Planet Earth. He has DirecTV HD. I told him to put up an antenna which he did. He was truly impressed again. Big difference OTA to DirecTV. So he now watches and records all his local programming from the antenna.

Perhaps the dish the OP has is picking up better feeds than the HD lite that is Dish and DirecTV.

As well all the other comments about film, OARs etc apply.

I don't really care one way or the other. I get a load of HD from OTA and HDM both HD DVD and Blu. Technology is great.

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post #23 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That hurt!! Anyway I'm back thin skin and all. Some of you got it, HDTV beats HD disks, or matches them, IMO. Maybe it is the grain, maybe it's the full screen (I do like to have my projector projecting colourful pixels that change colour, rather then dead black ones). And besides that (and this is for you purists) if a director does a movie in 16/9 (1.78) I know I will be happier. With the home theater growing like it is, and the cinemaplex struggling, you never know. I 'm sure they will go where the money is. I just find the PQ on HD disks to be very dark, and even when I compare somthing like CSI or other dark TV shows (don't they have a lighting budget) they are very close in PQ IMO. I was at a friends house today and we were comparing HDTV (How It's Made) to a blu ray disk (Rush Hour 3). Yeah I know, but that's what was on. Sorry guys all 3 of us thought the TV show was better (I can hear the boos and hisses even before I post this), and that was on another system. I have been waiting for a blu ray player that does all the decoding on board, the Denon 3800 looks good. But for that money I would like a large step up in performance. To answer your question on what channels I watch:Oasis, HDNet, Discovery HD, the show Dexter, Rome,CSI, Treasure HD etc. Maybe all my HD DVDs are poor transfer, but the review in DVD Talk on 300 (the movie) they gave it a great video score. I find it dark and lacking in depth and pop. I did take the ISF course and even passed the exam. I do have my setup right and understand the black bars and all that stuff about how the director wants us to see it, but geez! Bars are bars and grain is grain, I like the looking out a window thing. Thats all for now. Let the mummbling begin.
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post #24 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 07:22 PM
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No, I don't get it. There is no chance that HDTV is BETTER than HD/BD. Might be the same under ideal conditions but certainly not better.

When disks are graded they are graded to how faithfully they capture the directors intent. Not on how pretty the colors are. 300 was made to be stylistically very different. A LOT of people here HATE it. The grain is off the charts and the picture (intentionally) lacks pop.

If you want to utilize your full screen (and this does come up) search for the thread that gives all the 1.85 movies. If you have Showtime, HBO or Starz you should be able to compare their movies to HDM. Most of us HATE HBO because they take beautiful OAR and squeeze it into your 1.78. But I guess they do it for you.

Where do you get your HBO and Showtime that is that good pray tell?? It sure isn't Dish or DirecTV...
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post #25 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry burman View Post

That hurt!! Anyway I'm back thin skin and all. Some of you got it, HDTV beats HD disks, or matches them, IMO. Maybe it is the grain, maybe it's the full screen (I do like to have my projector projecting colourful pixels that change colour, rather then dead black ones). And besides that (and this is for you purists) if a director does a movie in 16/9 (1.78) I know I will be happier. With the home theater growing like it is, and the cinemaplex struggling, you never know. I 'm sure they will go where the money is. I just find the PQ on HD disks to be very dark, and even when I compare somthing like CSI or other dark TV shows (don't they have a lighting budget) they are very close in PQ IMO. I was at a friends house today and we were comparing HDTV (How It's Made) to a blu ray disk (Rush Hour 3). Yeah I know, but that's what was on. Sorry guys all 3 of us thought the TV show was better (I can hear the boos and hisses even before I post this), and that was on another system. I have been waiting for a blu ray player that does all the decoding on board, the Denon 3800 looks good. But for that money I would like a large step up in performance. To answer your question on what channels I watch:Oasis, HDNet, Discovery HD, the show Dexter, Rome,CSI, Treasure HD etc. Maybe all my HD DVDs are poor transfer, but the review in DVD Talk on 300 (the movie) they gave it a great video score. I find it dark and lacking in depth and pop. I did take the ISF course and even passed the exam. I do have my setup right and understand the black bars and all that stuff about how the director wants us to see it, but geez! Bars are bars and grain is grain, I like the looking out a window thing. Thats all for now. Let the mummbling begin.

I suggest you get your gear calibrated. Sure video like How Is It Made is shot pure video and HD, it has a percieved cleaner look to it. And depending on how well film was transferred it can look bad, but good transfers will and shoudl out perform HD TV, especially since all HD TV is down rezzed now, Dish is 1440x1080 max, as I suspect DirecTV is as well.
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post #26 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I use the same gear for both, so a calibration doesn't work.
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post #27 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Percieved or not some HDTV still looks better than most HD DVD's that I have seen. And that is what we're talking about, a good percieved picture.
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post #28 of 40 Old 01-30-2008, 10:48 PM
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I get OTA and cable HDTV. I would rate PQ,

Blu-ray > OTA > cable

Based on my experience, even among cable provider the signal varies. For example, Champion broadband (formerly Altrio)'s HDTV quality is better than Time Warner. The TNT and ESPN sports games just looked clearer on my former cable provider.
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post #29 of 40 Old 01-31-2008, 02:59 AM
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My SHO, HBO and Starz are FiOS, which is the best I have seen since I have had DirecTV and Charter Cable in the past. However, HD DVD and BD are still noticeably better on my 100" screen with my Panny PJ. I don't get it.

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post #30 of 40 Old 01-31-2008, 03:16 AM
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Location: Gainesville FL USA
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Ignoring the OAR issues, I wonder if there is a difference in color space settings (BT.709/601) or adjustments between Barry's two inputs.

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper
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Tom Barry - Find my video filters at
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