How-To: MacOS X Firewire HDTV recording - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Killroy
Trust me, the MPAA has not figured out every single method to prevent this...

The MPAA did not come up with these standards, it's the DTLA (5C). To be sure, they were involved, but they are not one and the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by Killroy
and as soon as people figure it out they will buy out all those units and keep using them until they figure it out and stop producing them.

That's precisely my point about certificate revocation. What happens if the device certificate for these units are revoked, and they can no longer record encrypted content?
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post #362 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 03:47 PM
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On a more constructive note re 5C....

What's the feasability of creating a 5C compliant VirtualDVHS program? Anyone with the 5C technical knowhow want to pipe in on this?

Now in order to have a 5C compliant VirtualDVHS, it would need to encrypt the stuff on your HD, and it would have to play back only for you. I can't think of a way to do this without locking it to your computer (encrypt key based on ethernet Mac address for example). So when you upgrade, you can't take the media with you. Surely there's another approach?

And now on to the biggest technological hurdle... I believe a 5C license costs about $18,000 or so.

Any other speculation out there...??

-Pie

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post #363 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 03:56 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by EatingPie
And now on to the biggest technological hurdle... I believe a 5C license costs about $18,000 or so.

Any other speculation out there...??

-Pie

Steve can afford it

Dave Cook
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post #364 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 05:16 PM
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I can't see why 5C couldn't operate on a Mac like iTunes does. For example, an encrypted .m2t file could be authorized to play on as many as three Macs. I see 5C compliant 1394 cards online but none available for sale to consumers. All we need is the card and a good iApp and a long stretch of FireWire cable. BTW, have I said I do not like tape and I do not like the limited storage capacity today's DVRs?

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post #365 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 06:33 PM
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You need a firewire card that does 5c, thats never going to happen.

Looks like I am going to start building that super seven pretty soon. Burn in hell MPAA.


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post #366 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 06:37 PM
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Why do you need a card that does 5C? Why can't this be handled at the software level... like in a driver, or even in the app itself?

-Pie

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post #367 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 06:42 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by EatingPie
Why do you need a card that does 5C? Why can't this be handled at the software level... like in a driver, or even in the app itself?

-Pie

IIRC it requires a "Handshake" at the hardware level.


Like other people pointed out if the key is found out and distributed throughout the net most of us will probably wake up the next day to a firmware update of our cable/sat boxes.


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post #368 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 06:57 PM
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Sounds like it has the potential to end up like the DirecTV deal that everyone was doing a couple of years ago. Not sure if it's even being done any more. Every so often ZAP no more free channels!

Dave Cook
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post #369 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 07:54 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by stgdz
IIRC it requires a "Handshake" at the hardware level.

Like other people pointed out if the key is found out and distributed throughout the net most of us will probably wake up the next day to a firmware update of our cable/sat boxes.

Yes, it does require handshake, but that can take place in software, as it has to do with device authentication prior to key exchange. Here's the process outlined in the "5C Tutorial" that I downloaded from the DTLA site.

(1) Source --> Encrypted content with EMI Set --> Sink
(2) Source <-- Request Authentication <-- Sink
(3) Source <-- Device Auth Key Exchange --> Sink
(4) Source --> Channel Key Exchange --> Sink
(5) Source --> Encrypted content with EMI Set --> Sink

First the device gets authenticated, then the channel key gets exchanged. This is why you need to get a license from 5C, your device must be authenticated before any key exchange takes place.

The DTCP spec actually allows for software implementations. And another part of this same tutorial says "Suitable for implementation on PCs and CE devices."

-Pie

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post #370 of 2181 Old 04-15-2004, 08:48 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by EatingPie
The DTCP spec actually allows for software implementations. And another part of this same tutorial says "Suitable for implementation on PCs and CE devices."

Yes - and it should be noted that it's NOT limited to firewire either (although that's the first to be implemented). They have already outlined specifications for mapping DTCP to USB and even IP (DTCP-IP). So there is definitely a vision that eventually, you'll be able to move 5C protected content to/from PCs, whether through a firewire connection, USB, wireless networks, or even the Internet.
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post #371 of 2181 Old 04-16-2004, 08:59 PM
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I pulled the stream recording functionality out of VirtualDVHS and put it in a modified AVCBrowser so that I can configure and record all from one app and not deal with juggling the two. Is this of interest to anyone if I clean it up and add the channel changing, or has this already been done?
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post #372 of 2181 Old 04-16-2004, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Fantastic, please show us what you've done

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post #373 of 2181 Old 04-16-2004, 10:00 PM
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I'll post it as it is becuase I am curious if it works for anyone else before I dump more time in it, but don't use it for anything you really want to record - it is only the first pass at it.

NOTE: The files ends in .zip, but it is a Stuffit archive. The forum won't let me post .sit. Just remove the .zip from the filename and open it with expander.

To use it, launch it and configure the device by connecting to the output just like you normally would using AVCBrowser. You must use channel 0 right now, but that is an easy fix.

If you get the standard connect to output succeeded message in the log window, then just press the record button at the bottom. There is no feedback of bitrate or packets, also an easy fix, but you should see the file appear in your home directory. For now it just defaults to saving all files in your home directory so that must be writable.

Press stop when your done. There is no error checking that you are connected when you press record, etc, although, Apple's FW stuff seems is pretty robust. I rarely crash when I mess up, I just fon't get the stream.

I'll have more time this weekend to move it along.

So far, tested on a dual G4 w/10.3.3 and the 6200 only.
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post #374 of 2181 Old 04-16-2004, 10:01 PM
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Ugh, some difficulty attaching.

 

avcbrowser.app.sit.zip 179.5k . file
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post #375 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 06:15 AM
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kaadray,

Hey, go for it! I gave it a whirl and the file stored in my "home" user directory. It would be great to be able to store on an external hard drive. If you can integrate channel changing, that would be awesome.

Was it more difficult to integrate AVC Browser with VirtualDVHS? I am only just learning Xcode. So, I wouldn't have a good idea as to time and effort to do so. My idea would be to move the connect and disconnect buttons for the input and output on channel 0, a small log window, the AVC Command button and AVC command field and add the channel change functionality. There is still the matter as to how to deal with the AVC device list.

Any improvements as to ease of use would be great!

Regards,
Joe


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post #376 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:42 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jsb_hburg
kaadray,

Hey, go for it! I gave it a whirl and the file stored in my "home" user directory. It would be great to be able to store on an external hard drive. If you can integrate channel changing, that would be awesome.

Glad to hear it generally worked. Both enhancements should be straightforward. Hopefully I'll have some time tonight.

Quote:



Was it more difficult to integrate AVC Browser with VirtualDVHS? I am only just learning Xcode. So, I wouldn't have a good idea as to time and effort to do so. My idea would be to move the connect and disconnect buttons for the input and output on channel 0, a small log window, the AVC Command button and AVC command field and add the channel change functionality. There is still the matter as to how to deal with the AVC device list.

It depends what you want to have in the end. Initially, I just want the ability to do timed records on the Mac with a clean interface - I don't need any DVHS functionality, since I don't have an external one, and I don't have a device that can control the Mac. For this, you need ~90% of what is in AVCBrowser, and ~2% of what is in VirtualDHVS, so I went this route. Tonight, I'll probably start from scratch now that I understand what is going on better.

If you need/want the DVHS type-functionality, it is probably easier to start with VirtualDVHS and pull in the AVSCBrowser stuff. This shouldn't be too bad, but since you need a significant portion of the AVCBrowser it means more integration work than just adding 2% of VDVHS to AVCBrowser. And it is really integration, as opposed to what I did which is mostly tacking something extra on. Being selfish , I'll probably try to get the basic recording functionality I need for recording in an AVCBrowser-type app done first, but if no one has done it by then, I could certaintly do the VDVHS enhancement.

To give you a time estimate, I just started learning FireWire stuff 2 days ago, but am very familiar with XCode and moderately with Cocoa - the AVCBrowser update only took about an hour once I figured out what was going on. I would imagine a first pass at the DVHS update would be closer to 3-5hr for me, less for someone who has experience with this stuff.

Good luck if you give a shot! I'll post the source to what I posted above when I can get a page set up on Comcast, in case anyone wants to see what part I brought over.
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post #377 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 02:55 PM
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Anyone know why VirtualDVHS always craps out after about a half hour of recording? I am looking at the log and I have a few MPEG2Receiver Error: DCL Overrun! errors and the last error I have says:
MPEG2Reciever Error: Recieved unsupported length isoch packet: 41033

Since I wasn't watching it I don't know if that last error caused it stop, but since I have another one earlier on in the log I doubt that was the culprit. Any clues?????
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post #378 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 04:40 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by kaadray
Glad to hear it generally worked. Both enhancements should be straightforward. Hopefully I'll have some time tonight.



It depends what you want to have in the end. Initially, I just want the ability to do timed records on the Mac with a clean interface - I don't need any DVHS functionality, since I don't have an external one, and I don't have a device that can control the Mac. For this, you need ~90% of what is in AVCBrowser, and ~2% of what is in VirtualDHVS, so I went this route. Tonight, I'll probably start from scratch now that I understand what is going on better.

If you need/want the DVHS type-functionality, it is probably easier to start with VirtualDVHS and pull in the AVSCBrowser stuff. This shouldn't be too bad, but since you need a significant portion of the AVCBrowser it means more integration work than just adding 2% of VDVHS to AVCBrowser. And it is really integration, as opposed to what I did which is mostly tacking something extra on. Being selfish , I'll probably try to get the basic recording functionality I need for recording in an AVCBrowser-type app done first, but if no one has done it by then, I could certaintly do the VDVHS enhancement.

To give you a time estimate, I just started learning FireWire stuff 2 days ago, but am very familiar with XCode and moderately with Cocoa - the AVCBrowser update only took about an hour once I figured out what was going on. I would imagine a first pass at the DVHS update would be closer to 3-5hr for me, less for someone who has experience with this stuff.

Good luck if you give a shot! I'll post the source to what I posted above when I can get a page set up on Comcast, in case anyone wants to see what part I brought over.


kaadray,

Do you plan to set up a timer or capture reservation fields in your version? I have only learned AppleScript and Xcode to the extent necessity dictated. I am not aware of any customized version of AVC Browser aside from your first effort.

Good luck!

Regards,
Joe


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post #379 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 05:01 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by sting0r
Anyone know why VirtualDVHS always craps out after about a half hour of recording? I am looking at the log and I have a few MPEG2Receiver Error: DCL Overrun! errors and the last error I have says:
MPEG2Reciever Error: Recieved unsupported length isoch packet: 41033

Since I wasn't watching it I don't know if that last error caused it stop, but since I have another one earlier on in the log I doubt that was the culprit. Any clues?????

Half an hour.... hmmmm... What's the file size? Some file systems, like UFS have a 4GB limit. HFS+ does NOT suffer from this problem, but just in case you have a UFS volume, worth looking into.

-Pie

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post #380 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by sting0r
Anyone know why VirtualDVHS always craps out after about a half hour of recording? I am looking at the log and I have a few MPEG2Receiver Error: DCL Overrun! errors and the last error I have says:
MPEG2Reciever Error: Recieved unsupported length isoch packet: 41033

Since I wasn't watching it I don't know if that last error caused it stop, but since I have another one earlier on in the log I doubt that was the culprit. Any clues?????

It could be a drive issue or fragmentation. If you were using the CPU for other processes at the time that may have contributed to the problem. I would try recording to a clean drive with the Mac idle and see if the problem persists.

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post #381 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 06:50 PM
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Thanks. My format is Mac OS Extended (journaled) not sure if that is HFS+ of UFS.... I did get a file over 5 gigs, slightly over. I am doing nothing else at the time. I can try to defrag the drive, rcliff is there an easy way to do that in OSX? Never did that b4...
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post #382 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:07 PM
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Just figured it out. Looks like I have an HFS partition. Is there anything I can do to over come the size limitation? Does VirtualDVHS have the ability to split into multiple files????? Can I convert my drive from HFS to UFS without formating? I dont want to loose some of my installed files....

Edit: I don't think thats the problem, I just read that HFS+ the following:

HFS Extended and MacOS X
* Maximum number of files depends on the size of the volume (disk) size, although there is no set limit.
* Maximum volume and file size is 2 terrabytes (MacOS X 10.0-10.1), 8 terrabytes (MacOS X 10.2), and 16 terrabytes (MacOS X 10.3).
* Maximum number of files and folders in a folder is 4 billion. Again this depends on the volume size - bigger hard disks store more files.
* File system journaling (MacOS X 10.3).
* Long filenames of upto 256 characters.
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post #383 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have an HFS partition the file size limit is 2GB IIRC. UFS will only give you 4GB. HFS+ is what you want aka MacOS extended partition. Unfortunately you'll have to reformat to change to HFS+.

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post #384 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:22 PM
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I have HFS+, it says MacOS extended so I am good then. Any info on the defrag though????
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post #385 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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More info would help. What kind of drive? Internal/External? Is this a dedicated drive or does it have other data? Boot drive?

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post #386 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:48 PM
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Internal boot drive on an iMac G4 800 with 768MB of Ram. It's a 60 gig drive, I have nothing else running except virtualdvhs and avcbrowser....
it's a seagate i think, model ST360020A, About half of the space is used. Thx
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post #387 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I would try defragmenting with a commercial defragmentation utility like disk warrior, techtools pro or norton utilities. If you had a separate partition on the drive for this that would be better or ideally a fast firewire drive dedicated for storage.

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post #388 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 10:55 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jsb_hburg
kaadray,

Do you plan to set up a timer or capture reservation fields in your version? I have only learned AppleScript and Xcode to the extent necessity dictated. I am not aware of any customized version of AVC Browser aside from your first effort.

Good luck!

Do you mean something to autoschedule recordings? That is where I would like to head once I get the basic recording stuff more robust.
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post #389 of 2181 Old 04-17-2004, 11:04 PM
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There is a better version of the modified AVCBrowser at

http://home.comcast.net/~macpvr/

for anyone looking for the recording capabilities of VirtualDVHS and the connection to STB capability of AVCBrowser in a single application.

This version eliminates most of the restrictions in the one I attached directly to my message yesterday. You can save to any location, capture from any FireWire channel, and you get feedback on duration and bitrate.

It also includes some fixes to the original AVCBrowser, such as correctly indicating the number of devices in the main window, instead of incorrectly displaying zero much of the time.

There are a couple of enhancements as well, such as the option of automatically opening the plug connection/recording window for a particular device when the application is launched, if it is present.
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post #390 of 2181 Old 04-18-2004, 04:48 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by kaadray
There is a better version of the modified AVCBrowser at

http://home.comcast.net/~macpvr/

for anyone looking for the recording capabilities of VirtualDVHS and the connection to STB capability of AVCBrowser in a single application.

This version eliminates most of the restrictions in the one I attached directly to my message yesterday. You can save to any location, capture from any FireWire channel, and you get feedback on duration and bitrate.

It also includes some fixes to the original AVCBrowser, such as correctly indicating the number of devices in the main window, instead of incorrectly displaying zero much of the time.

There are a couple of enhancements as well, such as the option of automatically opening the plug connection/recording window for a particular device when the application is launched, if it is present.

kaadray,

Thanks!

The ability to browse and change the save-to folder works.

Regards,
Joe


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