Apple TV vs. WMC - Apple wins - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

I've got a few more questions for iTunes Store people.

Do you still subscribe to Cable or Sat? If so, in effect you are paying double for most TV shows that you download from iTunes, correct? Do the iTunes supporters out there think people are going to dump Cable/Sat for the iTunes model? And would this be cost effective?

There are reasons why I don't think Apple can replace the PVR. While these might not apply to everything, there are tons of content reasons why Apple TV + iTunes can't provide the Average Joe what they want.

As Kevin pointed out, I don't think it was Apples' intention to replace the PVR. But you raise some interesting questions and I'll try to answer them.

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Live sports

I'm not a big sports fan, so this doesn't mean very much to me. I do watch the World Cup, but this happens only once every four years and I only watch games from a few countries.
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Local News

I don't watch local news on TV often. I get it mostly on the Internet and from radio.

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Live TV isn't dead

The idea of Live TV idea seems kind of passé. I never channel surf. I use the TV only deliberately, not accidentally.
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[Doomsday scenario]

This kind of information is widely available on the Internet. In fact, I was in my office when the WTC attack happened and, since we had no TV, we looked on the Internet. We were able to find a lot of information.

For me, your idea of TV is kind of old-fashioned. In my house, we actually don't watch very much of it. I have a satellite and receiver and get FTA stations from several countries around me, so it costs me only for the hardware (no subscription fee). When the next World Cup happens, I am thinking of using the satellite, if I can find a good source.

But, I use my Mac htpc mostly to play music from my library upstairs, which it does beautifully and to play films on my video projector, which it also does beautifully. I am one of the people here who sees no need for a front end, like Front Row. To watch a film, I choose which player and then just play it. With music, I only use iTunes, because it works and it works well.

I am not, btw, a candidate for an Apple TV mostly because I don't need it. But, if I should buy a HDTV in the future, I might look at it again.
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post #92 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by imlucid View Post

.... The reason why other media extenders haven't made much of a dent is they are geeky and scary and not in the public eye....

Hm, I'd say at least stuff like X-Box and PS3 is very much in the public eye, and the public is fairly used to them. Same for Netflix, who also have a STB in the works.

On the other hand, for your purposes, ATV may work fine.

My main issue (apart from some of the attacks aimed at those who disagree with the article at the beginning of this thread,) is that Apple has become a little too greedy and is locking the OS X community out of a rapidly expanding content delivery market. Apple wants to be the exclusive seller of ALL content that reaches your ATV, and this is the reason it has not cooperated with other content providers, such as Netfix, Vongo, BT, etc.. I am not saying that all of them would have jumped in and started developing for OS X, but at least some would. See this: http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/0...gomac/index.php

I also doubt the viability of a movie market where the price of a download is equal to, and at times greater, than the price of the physical copy of the same movie, which also includes packaging, extras, etc.. I'll repeat: this is a great model for selling $0.99 songs, which get repeat play and are often spontaneous purchases. But, IMO, it is not a viable model for movies, which cost $10-$20, are viewed once, come with DRM, and take a while to download. Again, see the linked interview above, or take a look at BT's pricing research.

At the end, I do wish ATV luck, even if I don't see it succeeding. But what worries me, is the likelihood that Apple will not provide any significant improvements to Front Row in Leopard, for fear of cannibalizing ATV's sales. Apple made the same mistake with games (which really drove up PC hardware sales in the Windows world,) and some would say, with their refusal to license their OS way back, at the beginning.

Anyway, I am still hoping for a super Front Row, and better codecs, when Leopard comes in.

P.S. FallingDown, I kind of see where you are coming from. But honestly, while I've had some incompatibility problems with my previous HTPC boxes, which I built myself (yep, I think I've spent well over $3,000 on those:-), Since I bought the Intel Mini, first XP MCE, and now Vista MCE, have been rock solid (Vista is actually more stable.) My wife can operate it perfectly fine with the help of a MX-850 universal remote, and it is so seamless, you can't tell that you are switching between the Dish 622 HDPVR and MCE. Really, you can't tell there is a computer in there at all (well, it's all hidden away:-)
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post #93 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 11:35 AM
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Although, I would still consider some of the answers lacking to what this Average Joe wants that everyone has been quoting throughout the thread.

This leaves the door open, you have Average Joe, which none of the opinions here seem to reflect, and you have average techie, which all the replies seem to reflect. So, can we really say that Apple TV is geared to Average Joe? "Old-fashioned" is still "common", at least in my experiences having a lot of friends who know nothing about computers other than how-to use Microsoft Word. I call these people Average Joe's.

I was actually in high school when WTC happened. Even having a state funded direct fiber connection, the campus had no Internet access for at least 4 fours. TV on the other hand, has no bandwidth considerations of this sort.

I also find it interesting and strange that you, Further, started a thread on Apple TV and about how it was so logical and good, yet you really have no interest in purcahsing one!

Chris
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post #94 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Hm, I'd say at least stuff like X-Box and PS3 is very much in the public eye, and the public is fairly used to them. Same for Netflix, who also have a STB in the works.

I think modding a xbox to play media to be extremly geeky and out of most of the public's reach.

Most people (including me) just want something that works in a pretty box. Looks and UI are important to me; ehile the xbox works great I think it looks horrible and I don't personally want to hassle with the effort it requires to even load XBMC on it.

On the other hand the AppleTV will work much like the ipod. Itunes will detect it and you copy stuff to it just like the ipod. The public has already proved they can operate and use a ipod well. With the video ipod they proved people will buy content from Itunes to watch. I feel the AppleTV will be a run-away success.

The comments I see about the atv are similiar to the ones I saw in forums about the ipod's initial launch and I was one of the first people in line to buy one. Most people claimed it was "too expensive ($499), there are other mp3 players out there, I can get a cheaper mp3 player already" yada yada yada .... Anyways you have to remember this is the begining. Since the ATV is essentially running a modded copy of os x you can bet people will hack it to provide codec's and/or provide their own os just like they do with the ipod today.

I for one will be getting one, just not on the first day. I am playing the "wait and see" game but have a feeling I will be won over. If not now then maybe during a revision because you have to remember it wasn't until the later revisions of the ipod's did they become so popular.
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post #95 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Thanks for the feedback guys. Although, I would still consider some of the answers lacking to what this Average Joe wants that everyone has been quoting throughout the thread.

This leaves the door open, you have Average Joe, which none of the opinions here seem to reflect, and you have average techie, which all the replies seem to reflect. So, can we really say that Apple TV is geared to Average Joe? "Old-fashioned" is still "common", at least in my experiences having a lot of friends who know nothing about computers other than how-to use Microsoft Word. I call these people Average Joe's.

I agree with you: my feeling is that the Average Joes are not interested in home theater, much less in HTPC. For this reason, I found your questions a bit strange.

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I also find it interesting and strange that you, Further, started a thread on Apple TV and about how it was so logical and good, yet you really have no interest in purcahsing one!

I started the thread because several people in this forum had a very negative view of it and I felt that the article, despite its flaws, offered a view of it that was interesting and more positive. My own view is neutral: it's not for me, but I can imagine there are many people for whom it would be very useful.

Interestingly, on your own site, where you wrote "Apple TV sucks", I saw that several people commented that they would be buying one! Considering your site, I would assume most of those people are Windows users and they are not yet satisfied with other media extenders.
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post #96 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post

I think modding a xbox to play media to be extremly geeky and out of most of the public's reach....

Modding? Have you been on vacation for a while:-)?

Both Sony and MS have announced High-Def movie download services for their game consoles. No modding required, just a remote. E.G. http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/9727/532/

I do agree that ATV is by far the best designed box, but many Average Joes already have a game console sitting next to the Lazy Boy and the beer holder, so style might not be as high of a priority. Plus, the High-Def format DVD players of PS3 and X-Box are a selling point too, as is the game playing ability. As I said, Apple needs a hook to compete in a market rapidly getting cluttered, and I am not sure the iPod is enough of a hook.

But while Apple seems focused on ATV, many here have to rely on VLC for HTPC....
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post #97 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodOmens View Post

I think modding a xbox to play media to be extremly geeky and out of most of the public's reach.

Most people (including me) just want something that works in a pretty box. Looks and UI are important to me; ehile the xbox works great I think it looks horrible and I don't personally want to hassle with the effort it requires to even load XBMC on it.

Just want to make sure, you know the Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Extender out of the box. No modding, nothing. Put it out of the box, connect CAT5, select the Extender blade and it connects to your PC. It then presents you with the exact same UI and content you have on your PC.

Chris
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post #98 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Further View Post

I agree with you: my feeling is that the Average Joes are not interested in home theater, much less in HTPC. For this reason, I found your questions a bit strange.

I'm asking because everyone in this thread has been telling me that all other solutions are not geared to Average Joe, and because Apple TV is, it will sale.

But I ask the questions that would relate most to this Average Joe, the response turns into "well, this product is good because me the techie-type person is interested". That's completely opposite of what has been presented the last few pages.

I'm just trying to figure out what the market (mainly, this specific forum) is interested in. What I'm finding is that you want a product that "just works." You don't want something to consolidate devices. You don't want PVR, necessarily. You really just want another device to add to a stack of others. At least, this is what I gather from the replies so far.

What I would really like to know is what Average Joe, since I keep hearing that Apple TV is for them. So far, I have no found much evidence that Average Joe cares at all. Granted, this isn't the forum to find Average Joe.

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Originally Posted by Further View Post

Interestingly, on your own site, where you wrote "Apple TV sucks", I saw that several people commented that they would be buying one! Considering your site, I would assume most of those people are Windows users and they are not yet satisfied with other media extenders.

I write to more than just people using Windows. I write to people so they can make a choice on what to use. I have found that there is a market for these types of devices, but have yet to personally be able to put a label on the market. In my experience it's not Average Joe. And at the same time it's not just the pure Geeks. I get a mix of people, wanting to get more out of their media.

As I've said, I'm not a "Windows or Die" person. Those who actually read my blog will know that a lot of what I do is criticize Microsoft. Media Center is far from perfect, and parts of it plan suck.

But for Apple TV, a device that was very hyped (as all Apple or Microsoft products are) it failed to impress me. Such limited file format support, such limited features. I'm not an overall fan and I think I've made that clear throughout this thread too.

Chris
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post #99 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 05:57 PM
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As I said, Apple needs a hook to compete in a market rapidly getting cluttered, and I am not sure the iPod is enough of a hook.

And just where is the clutter in a market for iTunes media extenders? I know of one product: the appleTV.

That is the problem with the criticism of the appleTV and the rah-rah-rah'ing of MCe in this thread. MCE does not and will not exend content from iTunes to the HDTV. That is why the two markets are different.

If you cannot understand that with 90 million iPods, 10's of millions of iTunes store accounts, millions that use iTunes without either an iPod or an iTS account, millions that use iLife for photos, music, video, etc., and millions of people who will purchase iPhones (with WiFi built in), that maybe a significant part of that potential market would like a device simply to extend that content from the computer to the HDTV, then you are seriously deluded.
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post #100 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

I'm just trying to figure out what the market (mainly, this specific forum) is interested in.

An iTunes and iLife content media extender. No more, no less. Computer (and maybe later iPhone or WiFi iPod) content via iTunes to the HDTV. Done simply, elegantly, and thoughtfully. So that the average person can take it out of the box, plug it into the HDTV, pair it with iTunes, and watch content. 5 minute setup, max.

MCE is not an appleTV/iTunes-iLife media extender competitor. Many here are not interested in buying an appleTV, as it does not meet their needs. It is what it is. What many of us here might want is irrelevant, because in the HTPC-Mac forum ,we have discussed at great length what we want, and what we are/may be getting. The purpose of this thread has been to debunk the theory that MCE and appleTV directly compete, as Eran in his Roughly Drafted article put forth.

So get off the high horse that if you could only understand what we want, you can figure out how to convince us that MCE will meet our needs. It ain't gonna happen.
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post #101 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 06:28 PM
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Wow. I wish people could just answer questions about the product that they have supported in a four page thread, but now it appears it a game of attacking the person asking the questions that can't be answered instead.

That's ok. Thanks for the feedback, but if the rest of the thread is going to be seen as me trying to convert you, I'll step out. I just wanted to know what people see in the product, and I do now see that it's going to be a interesting market to fill.

You guys have supported the product, but when questions are asked about the theories proposed by yourselves, they oddly can't be answered.

Again, thanks for the feedback and I appreciate it. I hope Apple TV becomes a great selling product.

Chris
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post #102 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wildrock View Post

... If you cannot understand that with 90 million iPods, 10's of millions of iTunes store accounts, millions that use iTunes without either an iPod or an iTS account, millions that use iLife for photos, music, video, etc.,...

Oh, so it's not the movie download service? Now it's just an extender?

Is it kind of like the Logitech Wireless Music System, or the Linksys equivalent, both of which have been around for a while, and can stream all sorts of content, including protected iTunes music?

Or is it more like the X-Box (which also works as an extender out of the box,) but without the gaming option.

But if it's an extender, it means that it needs a computer to serve the content. And we all know that the majority of iPod and iTunes users are non-Mac users, which would imply that the target audience of Apple TV is similarly made up of non-Mac users.

But wait, non-Mac users have never heard of iLife, and would not be able to share their photos with the Apple TV. Unless of course, Apple comes out with iLife for Windows, which I actually would not put past them.

Anyway, your "extender" argument is a bit better one, even it does come from a very high horse, to use your expression. The problem is, Apple is keeping it a closed system, with limited format support, and it's value-added services (movie downloads) are too expensive to frequently be used by most, for the purpose the name implies: Apple TV.
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post #103 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 07:14 PM
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... if the rest of the thread is going to be seen as me trying to convert you, I'll step out....Chris

Don't take it heart, Chris. This forum, just like the Other One, has a few zealots who are ready to burn anyone who challenges their firmly held, and at times uninformed, beliefs. It's called religion, but it doesn't always involve a deity.

OS X is a good platform, and I do believe that Apple's hardware is some of the very best, both in terms of design and quality. Even if it doesn't have a good front end (yet?), it does a lot of others things well (even running Windows:-)

Speaking of conversion, take a look at the Mini (a new one is rumoured soon.) Do it for your girlfriend:-), and dual boot for a while. You never know, we may even see something like this about you: http://thomashawk.com/2006/11/thomas-hawk-buys-mac.html
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post #104 of 118 Old 03-01-2007, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

Wow. I wish people could just answer questions about the product that they have supported in a four page thread, but now it appears it a game of attacking the person asking the questions that can't be answered instead.

Chris, I have not attacked you but, if I were you, I would not be so surprised that your posts have met with some hostility here. Consider these things: 1. you have never before posted in the Mac forum and show little respect for Macs, 2. you have been "selling" MCE here (your "Average Joe" questions several posts back include a long description of all the "wonderful" things you can do with MCE), 3. we have a lot of Windows/MCE "refugees" here - people who, perhaps without actually saying it, eloquently contradict your extremely positive view of MCE and 4. finally, while you say you are no Microsoft fanboy, I'll let you in on a little secret: until you clarified it, I thought you actually worked for Microsoft because of your zeal.

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You guys have supported the product, but when questions are asked about the theories proposed by yourselves, they oddly can't be answered.

Well, I certainly don't see that. If you had actually spent some time here, you would know that one of the most common questions posted in the Mac forum is: "How do I set the resolution on my Mini to match XYZ flat-panel?" Most of us expect the AppleTV to help those people. Also, people who can't/won't have a computer in their living room may see the AppleTV as something small and attractive and convenient. I think these points have been expressed many times.

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Again, thanks for the feedback and I appreciate it. I hope Apple TV becomes a great selling product.

Thanks, but I couldn't care less whether it becomes a big seller or not: I don't work for Apple and I don't see how it will change my htpc one way or another. I hope you buy your girlfriend a Mac and it seduces both of you!
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post #105 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Oh, so it's not the movie download service? Now it's just an extender?

Is it kind of like the Logitech Wireless Music System, or the Linksys equivalent, both of which have been around for a while, and can stream all sorts of content, including protected iTunes music?

They can stream music and nothing else.
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post #106 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 06:34 AM
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But wait, non-Mac users have never heard of iLife, and would not be able to share their photos with the Apple TV. Unless of course, Apple comes out with iLife for Windows, which I actually would not put past them.

I don't think apple is interested in supporting window user, these products are more of a ploy to convert them to mac users. Most of their lastest converts came because of the ipod.

LJ
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post #107 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Further View Post

Chris, I have not attacked you but, if I were you, I would not be so surprised that your posts have met with some hostility here. Consider these things: 1. you have never before posted in the Mac forum and show little respect for Macs

I can't really post in a Mac forum just to show that I have respect for them. As I have covered, I would love to buy a Mac and I will. However, on the HTPC side I see no reason to run Front Row. It's more limited then Apple TV, so I would have no reason to open a thread about it or reply to a thread in a manor that would not be seen an spam (kind of the problem I am running into here).

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2. you have been "selling" MCE here (your "Average Joe" questions several posts back include a long description of all the "wonderful" things you can do with MCE),

And considering the title of this thread is "Apple TV vs. WMC - Apple wins" I'm really not sure what people find this as a shock. Open a thread called "WMC vs. Apple TV - WMC wins" in the other HTPC forum and I'm sure we would run into the same posts that we have here, no? As Bob said, if a thread is going to compare them, you have to expect comments on both sides. It doesn't matter if this is a Mac forum or not.

Compare to Windows, and you are going to get Windows replies. This is no different from any other forum, where a user wants to know if there hardware or software can currently do something. A reply so no it can't, but the "product x" can. Check it out. Happens everyday, and I'm sure it happens in the Mac forum too.

And even I my last post, I noted with brackets that it was my Media Player plug. You were free not to read it, the Apple TV part of the post was above and I don't think I said Media Center or Microsoft once in that part of the post.

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3. we have a lot of Windows/MCE "refugees" here - people who, perhaps without actually saying it, eloquently contradict your extremely positive view of MCE

This again doesn't seem shocking, because even reading the replies of people who support Apple TV, have little to no interest in buying one. When hardcore Mac lovers don't think the product is what they want, you might assume they will go elsewhere for a product that might have the some of the same concepts, no?

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4. finally, while you say you are no Microsoft fanboy, I'll let you in on a little secret: until you clarified it, I thought you actually worked for Microsoft because of your zeal.

And we have established that I don't work for Microsoft.

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Well, I certainly don't see that. If you had actually spent some time here, you would know that one of the most common questions posted in the Mac forum is: "How do I set the resolution on my Mini to match XYZ flat-panel?" Most of us expect the AppleTV to help those people. Also, people who can't/won't have a computer in their living room may see the AppleTV as something small and attractive and convenient. I think these points have been expressed many times.

More of what I'm seeing is that people see v1 Apple TV is kind of a flake or they don't see it as what had seen presented in the rest of the thread (at least in my opinion).

For example, imlucid notes that he is far from the Average Joe. And then you, Further, said you are less then interested in Apple TV right now and that Average Joe isn't even interested at all! This is odd to me, as a page or so back both chefklc and wildrock noted that this was the product for Average Joe.

So, you conclusion is that Apple TV is more for the person who has tried to put a Mac-based HTPC in their living, but given up on it because of various reasons (resolution, etc)?

If that is the case, why didn't you reply to any of the other posts about Average Joe before? I mean, it seems like every post I get from you says something about me reading and viewing what the Mac HTPC forum has already concluded, I assumed that Average Joe and Apple TV was one of the things that had been concluded.

Thanks!

Chris
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post #108 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 07:56 AM
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I don't think apple is interested in supporting window user, these products are more of a ploy to convert them to mac users. Most of their lastest converts came because of the ipod.

LJ

This is true for some, but not nearly true for the average iPod buyer. Because iTunes is cross platform, the majority of iPod owners have no reason to switch. This is clearly shown by just about any OS marketshare report. I think Apple has gained like 2% in the last few years or something like that. I would say that a number of that 2% are iPod users that see the light. However, the numbers are really not with Apple to say that iPod owners are converting to OS X just because of the iPod or iLife (which, Ryan is right, Windows users don't know of).

Apple Computer changing to Apple Inc. kind of shows this too. They are not really a computer company any more, despite them still making them. Their market is iTunes, iPod, and iPhone.

(and no, I don't know the exact % that switched. Used as an example more than anything).

Chris
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post #109 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by lmengel View Post

I don't think apple is interested in supporting window user, these products are more of a ploy to convert them to mac users. Most of their lastest converts came because of the ipod.

Of course Apple would LOVE to have every single iPod or AppleTV user to switch to the Mac. But Apple knows that it isn't going to happen and is getting a substantial percentage of it's revenue directly from the iPod.

A Deutsche Bank(?) analyst recently predicted that AppleTV would take over 30% of the set top market, which is worth billions of dollars. Believe me, Apple will bend over backwards to support Windows users for that kind of money (plus all the Windows users Apple hopes will be buying the iPhone).

So no, AppleTV, iPod, iTunes Store and iPhone are no "ploy" -- they are (along with the Mac) Apple's future.
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post #110 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 08:12 AM
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But wait, non-Mac users have never heard of iLife, and would not be able to share their photos with the Apple TV. Unless of course, Apple comes out with iLife for Windows, which I actually would not put past them.

FYI: Apple TV will support photos on Windows just like it does for iPods.

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post #111 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

And considering the title of this thread is "Apple TV vs. WMC - Apple wins" I'm really not sure what people find this as a shock. Open a thread called "WMC vs. Apple TV - WMC wins" in the other HTPC forum and I'm sure we would run into the same posts that we have here, no? As Bob said, if a thread is going to compare them, you have to expect comments on both sides. It doesn't matter if this is a Mac forum or not.

Chris, you are quite ignoring my point. Why, when you posted your questions about "Average Joe" did you need to list all the "wonderful" things about WMC? It was really quite unnecessary in the context of your question. That is the reason why I said there may have been hostility toward you.

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This again doesn't seem shocking, because even reading the replies of people who support Apple TV, have little to no interest in buying one. When hardcore Mac lovers don't think the product is what they want, you might assume they will go elsewhere for a product that might have the some of the same concepts, no?

This again ignores my point. I said that there are plenty of Windows/WMC refugees here who contradict your positive view of it.

I've raised this point once before, but you ignored it, so I'll try it again: if, as you said, you don't expect "Average Joe" to use a computer much, why did you ask that long list of questions about "Average Joe" and computers?
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post #112 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 09:32 AM
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You say ignores the point, but still you ignore all the actually questions I asked relating to Apple TV in the post. I didn't say Apple TV (or MCE for that matter) is for Average Joe, I said basically the exact opposite! Maybe you should go back and actually read the replies, skip over anything that says Media Center and read what I wrote about Apple TV.

You have done nothing but dodge the Apple TV related questions and look to MCE to pull you out of the hole you dug with supporting Apple TV then turning around and not being able to answer simple questions about it.

Again, thanks for the feedback. But since now you clearly have no answers or comments about Apple TV, the thread about comparing to MCE can be all yours again.

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post #113 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

because even reading the replies of people who support Apple TV, have little to no interest in buying one. When hardcore Mac lovers don't think the product is what they want, you might assume they will go elsewhere for a product that might have the some of the same concepts, no?

While I may not buy an appleTV (initially), I am in the business of developing solutions for people who are in the potential market of the appleTV. I can think of a dozen applications where the appleTV is appropriate. In ways it will be like the iPod, in that its primary purpose will be augmented by a lot of specialized installations. Some of us who don't choose the appleTV are waiting to see what the next Mini brings. And what Leopard brings. And what third party developers bring.

Apple's slow move into new markets, and its notion of incremental progress may seem foreign to those used to Windows-type development: promise the moon, freeze the competition, then deliver a sub-par product full of problems (like the Zune) while hurrying the product to market. The environment of Windows-derived solutions is full of a history of problems from a user-centric viewpoint. What Apple does is bring products to market knowing that they will bring users a positive experience, and do exactly what needs to be done. Apple doesn't promise, it delivers.

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This is odd to me, as a page or so back both chefklc and wildrock noted that this was the product for Average Joe.

Don't get so caught up in trying to argue semantics about what the "average joe" is. Different people here will have different conclusions about what the average joe is, or who they think the market for the appleTV is. Maybe that is what is so frustrating for some people is that the breadth of the market can't be easily pigeon holed, and therefore subjected to piecemeal nitpicking, with the conclusion that MCE would be a better product.

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Because iTunes is cross platform, the majority of iPod owners have no reason to switch. This is clearly shown by just about any OS marketshare report. I think Apple has gained like 2% in the last few years or something like that. I would say that a number of that 2% are iPod users that see the light. However, the numbers are really not with Apple to say that iPod owners are converting to OS X just because of the iPod or iLife (which, Ryan is right, Windows users don't know of).

It is talk like this that shows a lack of understanding of either Apple's strategy, or of how the market is "switching" to Macs. And blanket statements like "Windows users don't know of" are incorrect, ot say the least. At least enough Windows users (9,000 per day at last report) know about the advantages of the Mac platform, from whatever source, to ditch Windows and move to Mac.

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Apple Computer changing to Apple Inc. kind of shows this too. They are not really a computer company any more, despite them still making them. Their market is iTunes, iPod, and iPhone.

And this again is nothing but uninformed opinion. Apple's computer division is growing steadily, and gaining market share. Apple still is, and will be a computer company. Apple has developed a "platform" of products and services and has done a better job than any other company or bevy of companies to do what they do: provide a beginning to end integrated solution that works. Not a solution that does everything for everybody, but does what Apple designs them to do better than anyone else.
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post #114 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 10:25 AM
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Again, thanks for the feedback. I'm not going to sit here and turn this into a thread that Bob has to close, so I'm gone. Sad that it has to happen, but...

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post #115 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wildrock View Post

... I can think of a dozen applications where the appleTV is appropriate....

And they are...?

So far the best you've come up with is an "extender." The alternative application is a very expensive and inadequate implementation of a streaming "TV." Please list a few more. Then tell us how they differ from, and are better than, the similar streaming/downloading solutions offered from the likes of X-Box, or PS3, or Netflix, etc..

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... Some of us who don't choose the appleTV are waiting to see what the next Mini brings. And what Leopard brings. And what third party developers bring....

Yep, that's what I am waiting for too. But in the meantime, I have a fully functional, seamless HTPC experience, from an Intel Mac Mini, running (gasp!) Vista MCE, while you insist on using a mouse and VLC and calling it HTPC.

Oh, and Apple is doing its best to lock out those "third party developers," so that they can't easily bring us decent video quality, or 5.1 audio, or non-Apple delivered streaming content.

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Originally Posted by wildrock View Post

... and its notion of incremental progress may seem foreign to those used to Windows-type development: promise the moon, freeze the competition, then deliver a sub-par product full of problems (like the Zune) while hurrying the product to market. The environment of Windows-derived solutions is full of a history of problems from a user-centric viewpoint. What Apple does is bring products to market knowing that they will bring users a positive experience, and do exactly what needs to be done. Apple doesn't promise, it delivers....

Speaking of blanket statements....

Read your statement above. Do you really think it is reasonable, or accurate? Do you really think that MS has never done anything right, or that Apple has never done anything wrong? 'Cause if you do, you should also prostrate yourself 5 times a day, facing in the direction of Cupertino:-)
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post #116 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

You say ignores the point, but still you ignore all the actually questions I asked relating to Apple TV in the post. I didn't say Apple TV (or MCE for that matter) is for Average Joe, I said basically the exact opposite! Maybe you should go back and actually read the replies, skip over anything that says Media Center and read what I wrote about Apple TV.

What in earth does that have to do with the questions I raised? Is this some kind of childish game -- you didn't answer my questions, so I won't answer yours? Why can't or won't you stick to the topic?

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You have done nothing but dodge the Apple TV related questions and look to MCE to pull you out of the hole you dug with supporting Apple TV then turning around and not being able to answer simple questions about it.

Again, where are the answers to the points I raised above? Dodge the Apple TV questions? You're referring to me? I really don't understand what you're talking about!

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Again, thanks for the feedback. But since now you clearly have no answers or comments about Apple TV, the thread about comparing to MCE can be all yours again.

I really have the impression that you were trying to steer us into giving certain answers that you could then turn around and use to support your points. Obviously that didn't happen. Possibly because the answers you were hoping for were not the correct answers. I don't know. But, this really seems kind of childish.

If you don't want to answer the points I raised above, that's fine, but at least say that then.
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post #117 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 10:50 AM
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This thread needs to be closed...it's going in circles.
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post #118 of 118 Old 03-02-2007, 11:12 AM
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This thread needs to be closed...it's going in circles.

That's absolutely correct.

Thread closed.

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