BLU-RAY for Apple is NOT going to happen! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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If you guys are waiting for a BLU-RAY reader/writer in an Apple product get ready to wait for a loooong time (HDDVD is dead so I won't mentioned it here)
Apple might allowed the release of an external BLU-RAY drive by a third party for the MAC PRO tower to be use with Final Cut, but Steve Job has made it clear that he wants to provide all video content for Apple product via Itune store and that he has no interest in providing us the user with the freedom to watch BLU-RAY movies on our Apple laptop (It's Steve way or the highway!)
I'm tired of waiting I'm buying a PS3!
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post #2 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 12:59 PM
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Or maybe we just have to wait until Q2 '08 when the obvious chipsets for this functionality become available?

http://www.pcstats.com/NewsView.cfm?NewsID=58026

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post #3 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 01:03 PM
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what a strange post, adl.
apple's been part of the BDA group since the beginning.
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post #4 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 01:32 PM
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Just because Apple is a part of the BDA doesn't mean they will actually include it in OS X. As you said, they have been there from the beginning (well, not really it was more like years after the fact) and yet they have said nothing about Blu-ray Disc playback. When they joined the emphasis was about content creation of BD on the Mac, not so much about playback.

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post #5 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 02:45 PM
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adl,
What are you talking about, maybe a link would help make your point.

As for Apple and Blu-ray, the fact is there isn't a Blu-ray drive small enough to fit in MacBooks and I doubt Apple would bother with OS level support for Blu-ray (something Vista doesn't even have) if their top selling computers aren't an option.

I think like Windows, it's up to third parties to provide the software and I don't see WinDVD or Cyberlink doing that.

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post #6 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 04:01 PM
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1. I think you are forgetting about one of the primary purposes of Blu-ray--increased data storage. Why would Apple want to keep that from its users.

2. There are already Blu-ray drives for the Mac--more than one. Do a little research. Here's just one to get you started.

And by the way, I'm a happy Mac and PS3 owner.

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post #7 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 04:10 PM
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Three words - "DVD Studio Pro".

This is the de facto standard project authoring tool for independent content producers. Mostly because it's awesome, but even more so because Final Cut Pro is the de facto standard non-linear editor for independents as well and the two are pretty well integrated.

CEDIA is soon, and that is typically DVD Studio and Final Cut announcements are made. I wouldn't be surprised to see a DVD Studio Pro 5 announced with Blu-ray support. A Blu-ray content producer needs a player for testing, and a burner for mastering. I think Apple will likely see the entire chain as needing introduction together.

From there, trickle down into the iMac/Mac Mini lines (along with an updated iDVD) later.

I guess my point is, Apple isn't dumb. If their pro customers demand Blu-ray support Apple will give it to them.
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post #8 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 05:27 PM
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Sure authoring Blu-ray discs and using them for backups etc is great (and like Auctoris said already available), and I don't know about anyone else, but I just want to be able to watch the HD movies I already own on my Mac. Why should I have to buy a DVD or from iTunes if I already own the highest quality?

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post #9 of 51 Old 01-19-2008, 06:14 PM
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I actually don't see much point in Apple providing Bluray support right now because the advantage of Bluray is for huge screens. Not too many people have their big screen TVs hooked up to their Macs. Also, none of Apple's computers have HDCP yet - at least the OS has not supported yet. Since for Bluray movies HDCP is mandatory through digital connection (like DVI/HDMI), I think Apple is going to take their sweet old time. I already have a PS3 and I don't really miss Bluray on my Mac.
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post #10 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

I actually don't see much point in Apple providing Bluray support right now because the advantage of Bluray is for huge screens. Not too many people have their big screen TVs hooked up to their Macs. Also, none of Apple's computers have HDCP yet - at least the OS has not supported yet. Since for Bluray movies HDCP is mandatory through digital connection (like DVI/HDMI), I think Apple is going to take their sweet old time. I already have a PS3 and I don't really miss Bluray on my Mac.

After wandering around MacWorld Expo a couple days ago it is clear that Blu-Ray support for the Mac is coming, but rather slowly. Hardware support is ahead of the software. Roxio's Toast will burn Blu-Ray data disks but not video. Adobe's Creative Suite seems to be the only authoring solution for us at the moment which is too bad because it is so expensive.

Personally, I could care less about watching a Blu-Ray movie on my computer but I care A LOT about being able to author Blu-Ray disks for my own productions and those of my clients. As an owner of a G5 PowerMac and a long-time user of Final Cut Studio, I find it incredibly frustrating that Apple has not brought along BD authoring faster for DVD Studio Pro. My guess is that NAB '08 might be the timeframe for such support. I certainly hope that is the case.

Blu-Ray discs, playable on a set-top player can be made now but boy, we sure have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there. Hurry-up Apple!
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post #11 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 12:13 AM
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Apple is not going to screw up its OS with heavy, invasive HDCP/AACS DRM to play BluRay movies - ever.

reading/burning no-DRM BluRay discs (or FairPlay DRM'd discs, Apple's own light version of DRM) is another story. Apple may include that capability in some future SuperDrive. it can already be installed on some Macs, the drive and the software.

Apple might also someday build in or plug in a BluRay drive into AppleTV, which already is HDCP compliant. but Jobs said this week he really thinks internet downloads are the future, not physical media.

you can't copy BluRay movies anyway, so buy a separate player and forget using a computer. or get a Windows PC that can play them - like the Sony computers. - but i don't know why you would bother to do that. when you can just get a PS3 instead for less and play games too.
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post #12 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 01:02 AM
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I've been waiting for a cheap HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drive for the 2nd bay in my Mac Pro, but more and more I'm coming to agree with the OP that Apple is moving away from optical media entirely. I base this, of course, on the MacBook Air (a move I applaud, btw) and the fact that the Mac Pros just had a refresh with no change in optical drive. That was the time to do it, and if they chose not to for the next year or so (typical time between Pro-level bumps), probably they're not doing it at all.

While I own 30-35 HD-DVDs, I'm really moving toward an optical-disc-free existence. I don't remember when I last burned a DVD (and I've burned over 500 in my backup/piracy career). I think Apple is moving this way too. Hard drives are so cheap, 20 cents a gig. Gigabit network devices all over my house, what's the attraction of optical discs again?

I was reflecting earlier today in a conversation with a friend, that, while it seems Blu-Ray has won, or at least that HD-DVD has lost, if they released Star Wars or LotR on Blu-Ray, would I buy a player? Probably not. I'd be happy with a 1080p MKV HQ rip. I'm a mid-low end audio guy anyway, and I think a 12gb MKV can be pretty transparent to HD-DVD.
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post #13 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:06 AM
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I think Apple just made a very strong statement about the future of optical media on Macs. They don't believe in it Look at the new darling of Steve's eye, the MacBook Air. No Optical drive at all. Now surely this is a companion product for most people to go along with another computer but in the end all the HDCP baggage that comes with BD and HD-DVD is not something Apple is going to easily implement. HD movies on iTunes, a new high profile ultra small laptop w/o an optical drive at all, iPods and iPhones that play video all point to a world Apple sees as inevitable. Media w/o the restrictions of physical discs.

Like usual Steve may be slightly premature in his disdain of this media, he ALWAYS seems to dump a particular media earlier than some people are comfortable with , but I can see the writing on the wall. HD optical media may be very much alive right now but I can see the end of buying content on optical media as we may be witnessing the end of physical media in general. It only makes sense, especially if you are a world leader in portable media devices to be media agnostic.
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post #14 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post

(It's Steve way or the highway!)
I'm tired of waiting I'm buying a PS3!

Wow, Fanboy rage, my favorite. Okay, let me tell you something. HDCP will be required in OS X when and only when the Macs that can't handle HDCP are beginning to get retired. That's how Apple phases things in. HDCP leads to consumer confusion and frustration, two things Apple is NOT about. "Why doesn't my Blue-Ray disk play movies?"

HDCP support might come to some Macs, much in the same way that Quartz Extreme only came to some Macs, but it won't be for some time. What happens if Blue-Ray fails? Seriously, what happens? Your $3000 MacBook suddenly has a LaserDisc in it and no one cares. I'm not buying Blue-Ray media and I own a Blue-ray player. Blue-ray isn't even on the consumer radar, at current time is little more than an expensive over hyped toy. Currently there is NO reason to believe Blue-ray is definitely going to succeed in the consumer space, when it offers very little over DVD and in fact takes features away, because all consumers are thieves.

Personally, I would like there to NEVER be HDCP in OS X. I have the feeling that I'll stop completely buying computers when my computer stops functioning just because the company who made is thinks I might be a thief. Remember if the key is hacked on your HDCP device, it can be recalled and future media will not work with it. Each HD DVD and Blue-Ray device you purchase just might not work with ANY media put out in 5 yours, merely because someone figured out the key.
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post #15 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:52 AM
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I agree with what you wrote, Jerry, and I think it goes further. Apple makes money by selling both hardware and content for that hardware. I assume that Apple gets a commission for everything they sell/rent through the iTunes store. Apple also gets a commission every time someone uses their iPhone, doesn't it?

Apple does not sell content via optical media and would not earn any commission from such a sale.

Secondly, Steve wrote over a year ago about DRM in music, and DRM in HD sounds even worse. Why should Apple have to substantially re-write OS X to sell discs that they won't receive any commission on? Also, rewriting OS X would probably involve a large investment and would bring Apple virtually no return.

Also, the title of this thread seems to me to miss the point a bit. The issue is not the media, the issue is the content. That is, we want high-definition, not a particular disk format. If Apple can deliver high definition some other way, we don't need BluRay or anything else.
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post #16 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 07:24 AM
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never is a strong word if the market starts showing a strong need for it then i think
we will see it or as someone else said blu-ray could fail and something else take its
place.
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post #17 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

you can't copy BluRay movies anyway, so buy a separate player and forget using a computer. or get a Windows PC that can play them - like the Sony computers. - but i don't know why you would bother to do that. when you can just get a PS3 instead for less and play games too.

The makers of AnyDVD HD would beg to differ, but if you don't believe them check usenet, there are tons of 1080p rips of Blu-ray movies on there.

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post #18 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 09:41 AM
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I'm all for digital downloads of HD content and massive home servers filled with movies or massive online catalogs filled with movie rentals. Either way, I think it would be great to do away with physical discs. BUT, the "HD" downloads iTMS is offering are not comparable to HD DVD or BluRay. 720p and 5.1 audio? Who cares about 720p if you're watching on an iPhone or even a laptop? Resolution and audio quality make a difference if you're watching on a large plasma, lcd or pj with a surround system, and the 720p and 5.1-channel surround iTMS is offering is a far cry from the 1080p and new 7-channel surround formats being offered through HD DVD and BD.

I love the convenience of iTMS for music. I preview all of my CD purchases on iTMS before buying the CD. The first thing I do when I get the CD home is to put it on a computer. But I won't buy from iTMS, bc of the reduced bitrate. It looks like Apple, Inc. is going to lower consumer expectations for video quality, just as it has lowered consumer expectations for audio quality. I was hoping for something more.
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post #19 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 11:10 AM
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As usual, a thread with this ambiguous of a title is going to get confused. So let's clear it up.

There are three reasons for having a Blu-ray optical drive:

1) playing back HD content, and that content will be drm'd
2) archival/backup purposes (not of drm'd content): no drm
3) creative pro content authoring and distribution: no drm

Apple obviously isn't going to provide an optical drive for #1 in the near future, for all of the obvious reasons we can spout. But it needs to move to an optical drive that supports reasons #2 & #3. And reason #1 doesn't prevent Apple from doing so. So it seems logical that Apple will add support for, and probably deliver a Blu-ray optical drive. Apple will not deliver an HD-DVD for any of the 3 optical disk usages above.

I don't care what people say about alternative media formats for reasons #1-3, as none are standardized, nor meet the needs of creative pros. Blu-ray is here and now, and offers enough significant advantages over DVD+/-r/rw that it is a viable format for reasons #2 & 3. Apple has plenty of reasons for moving to Blu-ray, outside of the content arena. It will probably happen this year. And as others have mentioned, NAB, or one of the other creative pro events or WWDC are likely launching pads.

So, contrary to the thread's title, Blu-ray for the Mac will happen, just not for HD drm'd content--commercial studio disks. At least at its onset. What's down the road is not visible in anybody outside of the infinite loop's crystal ball.
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post #20 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 11:26 AM
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Wildrock,
I agree completly, but that doesn't change the fact that there isn't a Blu-ray drive small enough to fit in the MacBook yet and there are already Blu-ray drives available for the MacPro. That being said, I do think Apple should offer a BTO option with a Blu-ray drive.

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post #21 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 11:40 AM
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would the just announced panasonic at 9.40 mm count.
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post #22 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 12:01 PM
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While I agree it would be nice to have the bigger storage of BD I think it opens a whole can of worms for Apple. Are there any PC venders out there that sell BD or HD-DVD drives in their machines currently that don't play the movies? I can see the genius bar at my local Apple store with a line 20 deep of people wondering why their shiny new Mac with its shiny new BD drive can't play the movies they just bought. Apple coming out with the "next gen" optical media w/o "next gen movie capability" makes Apple actually look worse for the half hearted implementation.
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post #23 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

Apple is not going to screw up its OS with heavy, invasive HDCP/AACS DRM to play BluRay movies - ever.

They've already 'screwed up' their OS with DVD CSS and FairPlay.

Do a "kextstat" on your Intel OS X machine and you'll see this little doozy:

Quote:


98 0 0x6b0000 0x3000 0x2000 com.apple.Dont_Steal_Mac_OS_X (6.0.2) <79 7 5 4 2>

This 'driver' is the kernel level interaction with the intel TPM module. Like it or not, OS X is laced with DRM already and if your argument is that Apple won't support Blu-ray playback because they're philosophically opposed to putting DRM into OS X, you're horribly mistaken.
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post #24 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda View Post

This 'driver' is the kernel level interaction with the intel TPM module. Like it or not, OS X is laced with DRM already and if your argument is that Apple won't support Blu-ray playback because they're philosophically opposed to putting DRM into OS X, you're horribly mistaken.

You are half right. They are horribly opposed to using non-Apple DRM.
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post #25 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:56 PM
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How does anyone know they are actually opposed to non-Apple DRM at all? Has Jobs said so, or even implied that?

As others have noted, the lack of Blu-ray playback in OS X is likely due to Apple wanting to sell you stuff from iTunes.

Here's a few quotes from Apple and Jobs when the joined the BDA. Nothing about Blu-ray playback was said or implied.

"Apple has been a leader in driving consumer adoption of DVD authoring"

“Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs.” - Jobs

Apple is also helping bring High Definition (HD) to market with a complete line of HD content creation tools for consumers and professionals alike including iMovie® HD, Final Cut® Express HD and Final Cut Pro® HD editing software.

Chris
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post #26 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryNY View Post

You are half right. They are horribly opposed to using non-Apple DRM.

Except that they are already supporting DVD CSS and MacroVision in DVD Player.

I don't think anyone who professes to know what Apple is/is not opposed to can say for sure. Apple is notoriously secretive.

All we can do is look at what they've done in the past, and supporting the necessary DRM for optical formats to playback properly is something that they -have- done.
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post #27 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL01 View Post

How does anyone know they are actually opposed to non-Apple DRM at all? Has Jobs said so, or even implied that?

Actually I found this which is how I remember it:

""When asked during the EMI conference call about the potential of lifting DRM from video, Jobs said: "Video is pretty different from music right now because the video industry does not distribute 90 percent of their content DRM free. Never has. So I think they are in a pretty different situation, and I wouldn't hold it to a parallel at all.""

The point being at the time he was coming out against DRM for audio but upholding DRM for video as the norm. The bottom line is Apple supports DRM when it puts money in their pocket and isn't too interested in it when it doesn't.
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post #28 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 04:06 PM
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I think the OP is right though, it's not a matter of what is technologically possible, it's about what Apple's goal is. Apple is *not* looking to be a player in the HTPC market, not in the sense that we want them to be. They are only making the hardware to act as a delivery system for Apple's online video content. They're probably going to stay focused on that goal like a laser beam.
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post #29 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 06:31 PM
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You guys honestly think there will not be macs offered this year that will playback BD movie releases?

I can't imagine that to be so, but we'll see I guess.

BB
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post #30 of 51 Old 01-20-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon B View Post

You guys honestly think there will not be macs offered this year that will playback BD movie releases?

I can't imagine that to be so, but we'll see I guess.

BB

Leaving any technical (look at how consumers received HDCP support in Vista, they just LOVE it) or format wars (why chose one even when you're already on their side) reasons aside, I can't imagine they would add Blue Ray. I don't see the added profit for them in taking a media risk like that with their customers. Especially since they already have the ability to burn "HD" dvds that work on computers in HD or standard DVD players as SD. Demand is VERY low for HD DVD and Blue Ray. DVD is still where it's at and is going to be where it's at for the foreseeable future. Once the network affect takes over for what HD medium is really next gen, and about half of the media being sold is blue ray, you'll see blue ray players.

Apple didn't add optional DVDs until 1999 and standard DVD until 2002. A three year phase in cycle started two and half years after DVD was the SOLE media standard for future playback.

I can't imagine Blue-ray being in any Mac for several years.
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