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post #1 of 41 Old 08-14-2008, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Are subtitles only an issue on an anamorphic lens if subtitles are turned on from the DVD menu? For example, say the film is something like Kill Bill where the movie is playing with subtitles off, but occasionally one of the japanese characters will say something that triggers a subtitle. That would be ok then, correct?
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post #2 of 41 Old 08-14-2008, 01:34 PM
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Subtitles are only a problem if they are displayed in the black bar area of a 2.35:1 film. Most 2.35 movie show the subtitles in the bottom black bar, but CIH involves cutting that bar off. Does Kill Bill show the subtitles over the movie or in the black bar? If they are over the movie, then subtitles will work just fine, otherwise, they won't.
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post #3 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 01:36 AM
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I watch a lot of Asian movies with subtitles in the bottom black bar. I sure wish there was a way to move the subtitles by software, as part of the v-stretch option perhaps.

I wouldn't want the subtitles to be always over the movie - but an option to move them when stretching vertically would be ideal. Well, we can hope I guess!

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post #4 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 05:53 AM
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I found a get around for subtitles and CIH for DVD, but BD /HD DVD seem to have brought us back to the begining of the same problem we faced with SD DVD. So far, I don't think any of the HD titles I own with subtitles have them in the black bars. One title I've seen on BD even offered a "projector" setting which shifted them up into the picture area which I thought was cool...

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post #5 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 08:29 AM
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Out of 3 Bollywood blu-ray movies, the one released by Sony Pictures, Saawariya, has screwed-up subtitles which cannot be red on Scope screens. The other two released by Eros have subtitles placed on the bottom of the picture which is the correct position for the subtitles.

There is no easy way out from the subtitle mess created by Sony and BDA. Since blu-ray video path is protected, blu-ray players cannot adjust the position of image-based standard subtitles. The software based blu-ray subtitle repositioning feature does not work on all players probably due to ambiguous specifications, therefore, Studios do not use this type of subtitling.

A feasible solution that I could think of is to request Studios to add two subtitle streams on the disk one on the black-bar and the other on the picture which will satisfy everyone. This is extremely easy to implement at the authoring stage of the disk - a matter of few more clicks.

This subtitle problem is not limited to CIH, it is a big problem for the zoomers as well. Also it is a significant distraction for the black-bar-haters when the subtitles appear in the black-void which shouldn't be there in the first place since it is not part of the movie.
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post #6 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

I found a get around for subtitles and CIH for DVD, but BD /HD DVD seem to have brought us back to the begining of the same problem we faced with SD DVD. So far, I don't think any of the HD titles I own with subtitles have them in the black bars. One title I've seen on BD even offered a "projector" setting which shifted them up into the picture area which I thought was cool...

Mark

Mark, how did you deal with subtitles on DVD? Have you found a way to move them into the picture area?

Cheers mate.
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post #7 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncguy View Post

Out of 3 Bollywood blu-ray movies, the one released by Sony Pictures, Saawariya, has screwed-up subtitles which cannot be red on Scope screens. The other two released by Eros have subtitles placed on the bottom of the picture which is the correct position for the subtitles.

There is no easy way out from the subtitle mess created by Sony and BDA. Since blu-ray video path is protected, blu-ray players cannot adjust the position of image-based standard subtitles. The software based blu-ray subtitle repositioning feature does not work on all players probably due to ambiguous specifications, therefore, Studios do not use this type of subtitling.

A feasible solution that I could think of is to request Studios to add two subtitle streams on the disk one on the black-bar and the other on the picture which will satisfy everyone. This is extremely easy to implement at the authoring stage of the disk – a matter of few more clicks.

This subtitle problem is not limited to CIH, it is a big problem for the zoomers as well. Also it is a significant distraction for the black-bar-haters when the subtitles appear in the black-void which shouldn't be there in the first place since it is not part of the movie.

I own over 200+ Bollywood movies on DVD and these will present a problem with subtitles when I go CIH since most of them have the subtitles in the bottom black bar. Aarrgh!

Good to hear that EROS have got it right but I really don't think I will replace my existing collection with Blue Ray.
I can only hope that any new Blue Ray disks will get it right.

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post #8 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 09:13 AM
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This is a problem for blu-ray. It is created by Sony and BDA. Thanks to Eros, they have fixed this problem for their blu-ray releases. Hope all other Bollywood studios will do the same.

Fortunately, your DVD collection is okay since there are solutions for DVD subtitle repositioning. You can use TheaterTek s/w player on PC or Samsung Ezyview player for DVD subtitle repositioning.
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post #9 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeckerHead View Post

Does Kill Bill show the subtitles over the movie or in the black bar?

Kill Bill is a very unusual situation. If you watch the movie with its default audio and subtitles, where there are only subtitles during the Japanese speaking parts, the subtitles appear in the letterbox bar. However, if you turn on English subtitles for the entire movie, they're inside the movie picture.

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post #10 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

So far, I don't think any of the HD titles I own with subtitles have them in the black bars.

All discs from Warner and Sony (except Immortal Beloved) have subtitles in the black bar.

Quote:


One title I've seen on BD even offered a "projector" setting which shifted them up into the picture area which I thought was cool...

That was probably Immortal Beloved. Sony tried an experiment to offer subtitle repositioning. They tried it for one disc then gave up the experiment and haven't done it again since.

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post #11 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Kill Bill is a very unusual situation. If you watch the movie with its default audio and subtitles, where there are only subtitles during the Japanese speaking parts, the subtitles appear in the letterbox bar. However, if you turn on English subtitles for the entire movie, they're inside the movie picture.

Thanks for this information. In this case (Kill Bill), it looks like they have included two subtitle tracks. The full English track within the picture and the other on the black bar.

This is what I am asking from the Studios. That is to have two tracks on the blu-ray disk: one on the black bar and the other on the picture which will satisfy everyone. It is extremely trivial to do this at the authoring stage as it requires only few more clicks to duplicate a subtitle track and the disk space it takes is negligible. I really don't understand why they don't do this. Are they so much limited in thinking? How do they run a successful business if that is the case?

Subtitles on black bars is a big problem for millions of zoomers in non-English speaking countries and also black-bar-haters hate this as subtitles appears in the black-void which is not part of the movie and force them to concentrate on the black bars which they hate.

The key objective of the studios should be to make the movie experience a great experience for everybody so that they get more people on to movies rather than people watching sports or reading magazines.
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post #12 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

All discs from Warner and Sony (except Immortal Beloved) have subtitles in the black bar.

That was probably Immortal Beloved. Sony tried an experiment to offer subtitle repositioning. They tried it for one disc then gave up the experiment and haven't done it again since.

Sony Pictures Spiderman 3 has subtitles within the picture. So this shows that Sony Pictures have not yet developed a policy or guideline on this.

Immortal Beloved subtitles are based on BD-J software and they are stored as ASCII text so that the player could manipulate the display options in software. According to insiders in blu-ray.com, this doesn't work well due to player incompatibilities in displaying this type of subtitles. So, Studios do not use this method as they fear that sum players may not be able to display these titles at all. I think all this is due to some ambiguities in BD-J specifications and they should fix it if they can fix it.

The standard subtitles are stored as raster images and due to the protection of the blu-ray video path (unlike DVD) these subtitles cannot be moved unless the player manufacture violates the license agreement. To overcome this protection problem, the BDA could develop certified code ($$) to reposition image based standard subtitles so that blu-ray player manufacturers could incorporate this function into future firmware upgrades.

As everyone can see this is a big mess which shouldn't have happened with a new technology like blu-ray. Until this mess is resolved my suggestion for the Studios is to use two subtitle tracks (one on the bar, the other within the picture) to satisfy everybody and make the movie experience a grate experience for all movie watchers.
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post #13 of 41 Old 08-15-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

All discs from Warner and Sony (except Immortal Beloved) have subtitles in the black bar.

Are we talking subtitles for the hearing impared or subtitles for language translation? Subtitles for the hearing impared are often in the black bars, but I don't use those. I am only interested in the translation subtitles.

Rambo (SONY BD) has it's subtitles in the picture for the Burmese soldiers - which is where they should be. With the hi-rez of HD, why they would feel the need to remove them is beyond me. I watched a foreign film the other night (at a freinds in 16:9 mode with ST in the black bars) and quickly realized that I wasn't actually watching the film , but rather reading the text in the black bars. If the text had been higher in the picture, I would have at least been watching the film...

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post #14 of 41 Old 08-16-2008, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post


.......

I watched a foreign film the other night (at a freinds in 16:9 mode with ST in the black bars) and quickly realized that I wasn't actually watching the film , but rather reading the text in the black bars. If the text had been higher in the picture, I would have at least been watching the film...

Mark

You are absolutely right. When subtitles are on the black bars it is a shock for the black-bar haters as it appears in nowhere which is a void and shouldn't be there.

When the subtitles are on the black bars you are forced to concentrate on the black bars rather than the movies. Then you will realise that you are reading the subtitles rather than watching the movie. If the subtitles are within the picture, the subtitles are part of the picture and it is not needed to move your eye away from the picture frame.

It is hard for the native language movie watchers to understand this problem unless they watch a full length movie with subtitles. If you are reading subtitles for short periods during a movie you will not realise the problem either. Also, large screens aggravate the problem as it is needed to move your eye further away from the main action when you read titles on the black bars.

However, some people think that subtitles are better on black bars. Hence the best is to have two tracks one on the black bar and the other within the picture as it is an extremely trivial feature to implement if done at the authoring stage.
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post #15 of 41 Old 08-16-2008, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Are we talking subtitles for the hearing impared or subtitles for language translation?

Language translation. Probably hearing impaired captions too, but I don't often check those.

Quote:


Rambo (SONY BD) has it's subtitles in the picture for the Burmese soldiers - which is where they should be.

Rambo is a Lionsgate disc, not Sony.

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post #16 of 41 Old 08-16-2008, 05:37 PM
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What about BD-Live? Is there any hope that studios could go back and offer Scope friendly subtitles as a download on titles that currently have subtitles in the black bars?

When I went in and fooled around with BD-Live (not much to it yet, far as I can tell) they had me fill out a survey, and one of the questions was about the future feature of downloading additional subtitle tracks -although they were talking about languages and not positioning, would it not be really easy for them to set up a bank of Scope friendly subtitle tracks?

I bet Sony will really ache for this feature when they start showing off their super-duper Lawrence of Arabia BD on a Scope setup and they realise no one bothered to get the subtitles right.
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post #17 of 41 Old 08-16-2008, 06:50 PM
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Yes. This is a good point. I have asked this in blu-ray.com and I was told that due to differences in copyright ownerships in different regions there would be logistical issues in this approach. However, this is a real possibility and perhaps the only proper solution for the already released movies with screwed up subtitles.
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post #18 of 41 Old 08-16-2008, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Language translation. Probably hearing impaired captions too, but I don't often check those.

Hearing impaired subtitles can be in the black bars - Unforgiven (WB) has them top and bottom in the black bars, but then again, I turned them off...

Quote:


Rambo is a Lionsgate disc, not Sony.

It is Liongate, but distributed by SONY here in Australia (B)...and we only got a 5.1 soundtrack too where I was told the (A) release got a 7.1 sountrack...

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post #19 of 41 Old 08-22-2008, 10:01 AM
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I’ve been thinking about signing up over at Blu-ray.com purely to pursue this BD-Live/subtitle issue. It weighs heavily on my mind, but I’m probably too lazy to do anything much about it.

It’s such a treat to pop in a Disney distributed disc and have the subtitles be where they are supposed to be. And I am looking forward to Om Shanti Om having the subtitles in the right place.

I understand that copyrights and international distribution can be a tangled and byzantine mess, but, but, can’t we all just get along? With BD-Live we are basically talking about the possibility to download the same subtitles that are already on the disc, just in a different position. Does anyone really fear rampant abuse of subtitle downloads?
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post #20 of 41 Old 08-22-2008, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristobal View Post

I've been thinking about signing up over at Blu-ray.com purely to pursue this BD-Live/subtitle issue. It weighs heavily on my mind, but I'm probably too lazy to do anything much about it.

It's such a treat to pop in a Disney distributed disc and have the subtitles be where they are supposed to be. And I am looking forward to Om Shanti Om having the subtitles in the right place.

I understand that copyrights and international distribution can be a tangled and byzantine mess, but, but, can't we all just get along? With BD-Live we are basically talking about the possibility to download the same subtitles that are already on the disc, just in a different position. Does anyone really fear rampant abuse of subtitle downloads?

You are okay with Om Shanti Om blu-ray. Thankfully, Eros got it right. Both OSO and Heyy Babyy blu-rays have subtitles within the picture.
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post #21 of 41 Old 08-22-2008, 10:27 AM
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I would have ordered it anyway, even if they'd screwed up the subtitles, but I would have grumbled about it! I'm glad Eros is getting it right. Now when are we going to see Jodhaa Akbar?
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post #22 of 41 Old 08-23-2008, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristobal View Post

I would have ordered it anyway, even if they'd screwed up the subtitles, but I would have grumbled about it! I'm glad Eros is getting it right. Now when are we going to see Jodhaa Akbar?

There was some indication in June that UTV has started authoring Jodha Akbar. Check this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post14500438
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post #23 of 41 Old 08-24-2008, 07:58 AM
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Cool!

Thanks for the link.
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post #24 of 41 Old 09-10-2008, 08:38 AM
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Glad to see there's work being done on this front. The subtitle issue for Bollywood movies is the main reason I've avoided even doing much research into CIH for my new home theater.

Hopefully in a few years when I start upgrading my equipment and CIH becomes more affordable we'll see better subtitle support for it.
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post #25 of 41 Old 09-12-2008, 08:34 AM
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Om Shanti Om was just fabulous on BD. Subtitles in the right place.

Also, I just picked up Patton -a 20th Century Fox release, and the subtitles are Scope friendly! (At least on the edition for Spain) That was a happy surprise. Maybe the powers that be are starting to catch on.

Patton on the 11' Scope screen was fantastic, great fun. It is still unbelievable to me how I have the opportunity to see something like this in my living room! I figured I'd get over it eventually, that the novelty would wear off, well, it ain't happened yet. Every new BD title I get is as exciting an event as the last.
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post #26 of 41 Old 09-12-2008, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristobal View Post

Also, I just picked up Patton -a 20th Century Fox release, and the subtitles are Scope friendly! (At least on the edition for Spain) That was a happy surprise. Maybe the powers that be are starting to catch on.

It varies by studio. Fox and Universal usually keep the subtitles in the picture area. Sony and Warner almost always put them in the letterbox bar.

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post #27 of 41 Old 09-13-2008, 12:50 PM
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Josh,

Your post got me to thinking; were all (or most of) my Fox BDs Scope friendly and I just hadn't been paying attention?

The thing for me is that I get a wide variety of folks over to watch movies. Some of my friends only speak Spanish, some only English, and so I need as many options available as possible on the discs. I knew I had been disappointed a couple of times with the subtitles on a Fox disc, but some of the discs were Scope friendly too, so

I wasted an hour or so this morning and went through my BDs and culled out all the Fox titles I have to find out which ones had the subtitles above the letterbox bars. Here is what I found:


MY FOX BLU-RAY TITLES

1 Alien Vs. Predator GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
2 Alien Vs. Predator Requiem GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
3 Behind Enemy Lines BAD: Outside Letterbox
4 Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
5 Day After Tomorrow,The BAD: Outside Letterbox
6 Die Hard GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
7 Die Hard 2: Die Harder GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
8 Die Hard 4.0 GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
9 Eragon BAD: Outside Letterbox
10 Fantastic Four GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
11 Fantastic Four:Silver Surfer BAD: Outside Letterbox
12 Flight of the Phoenix GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
13 Hitman GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
14 I, Robot BAD: Outside Letterbox
15 Independance Day GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
16 Kingdom of Heaven GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
17 Master and Commander GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
18 Mr. And Mrs. Smith GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
19 My Super Ex-Girlfriend GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
20 Patton GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
21 Phone Booth BAD: Outside Letterbox
22 Simpsons: The Movie BAD: Outside Letterbox
23 Speed GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
24 Sunshine BAD: Outside Letterbox
25 Transporter, The GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
26 Walk The Line BAD: Outside Letterbox
27 X-MEN The Last Stand GOOD: Scope-Friendly Subs
28 Alvin and the Chipmunks 1.85:1 Doesn't count
29 Batman 1.85:1 Doesn't count
30 Edward Scissorhands 1.85:1 Doesn't count
31 Ice Age 1.85:1 Doesn't count
32 Ice Age 2 1.85:1 Doesn't count
33 Juno 1.85:1 Doesn't count
34 Night at the Museum 1.85:1 Doesn't count
35 Predator 1.85:1 Doesn't count

27 Scope Titles
18 good
9 bad
8 1.85:1 aspect ratio so not applicable

So, it turns out I have 35 Fox BD discs, curiously none of them are imported from the US or UK, I think this must mean that Fox is better than some of the other Studios at coördinating worldwide distribution of their catalogue. Out of those 35 titles 27 are Scope, and of those 27 films, 18 had the subtitles properly positioned for a Scope setup, which comes out to an even two-thirds of my films, a much higher amount than I had pessimistically been imagining.
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post #28 of 41 Old 09-13-2008, 02:57 PM
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Nice work Cristobal!

Now are you ready to do the same for the other studios?

The Mod Squad: New vs. Classic TV Series Opening https://vimeo.com/63119329
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post #29 of 41 Old 09-13-2008, 04:58 PM
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I know, I know I should go through all my discs. I'm at right around 250 BDs so far, with a lot more I'd like to buy as we head into the holiday season.

I have an Excel sheet I've started to catalogue all of my titles and it will be able to filter information like aspect ratio, subtitle positioning, and audio options. Unfortunately I've kind of let it slide lately, and I've only logged in about 50 discs so far.
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post #30 of 41 Old 09-14-2008, 02:39 AM
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Thanks Cristobal. This will be useful to many people.

Your survey shows that there is no policy for subtitle placement. It appears to be a random decision.
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