Panamorph UH380/480 lens "droop"..... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 35 Old 04-06-2009, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Owners of Panamorph UH380/480 lens, have you ever noticed your a-lens to "droop"? (rotate downward, a-lens lose's some clamp torque and the weight of the lens causes the lens to lower, since it's center of mass if fwd of the pivot)

I have mine mounted to simple DIY alum slide, and this is 3rd time it's "drooped" since I completed this slide in Dec-2008.
I am being careful to not slam the lens in either use or non-use position.

I've not modified the Panamorph factory mtg bracket/knobs at all, just tighten then with hand good twist. Both surfaces are clean, so coeff of friction should be same as Panamorph design spec and durability/cycle loading test results.

Panamorph has not been contacted yet, I should state when my lens was mounted fixed I never experience this (July 2008 - Dec 2008). Some phenomena is making the bolted joint lose enough of its torque to let the lens rotate downward.

There is no lock washer in the kit, I just checked my owners manual to make sure I did not forget/lose it.




edit:
I just went to the Panamorph website and sent a email to their contact info, with a link to this thread.
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post #2 of 35 Old 04-06-2009, 10:07 AM
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I would say a lock washer would help or a small dab of Loctite.

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post #3 of 35 Old 04-06-2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Some phenomena is making the bolted joint lose enough of its torque to let the lens rotate downward.
.

Possibly expansion and contraction of the screws/knob/bracket material. Like suggested a lock washer should do the trick
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post #4 of 35 Old 04-08-2009, 05:07 AM
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No 'droop' here (approx 1.5. years with UH380/480 + ATH1 transport).

I noticed thin washers (regular, not the lock type) on the nobs. The nobs are not more than hand tightened.

A long shot, but are you maybe running your Usul a bit hot .
____
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post #5 of 35 Old 04-08-2009, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

No 'droop' here (approx 1.5. years with UH380/480 + ATH1 transport).

I noticed thin washers (regular, not the lock type) on the nobs. The nobs are not more than hand tightened.

A long shot, but are you maybe running your Usul a bit hot .
____
Axel

I'll be installing washer/lock washers this weekend to keep the bolted joint in tension.
Yea, I think "Usul" is putting the stock set-up thru more NVH than it was designed/tested for.
(I watched Blu-ray "I Robot" and "Independence Day" last night at reference level, Main Volume set to 0db on my Denon, gosh that's LOUD and the Bass is awesome in those movies)

When I tighten the knobs firmly by hand and try to pull down on the lens it seems robust.
Could be there is some resonance harmonic of the mass/boom system (my lens mounted to long pipe with DIY slide) that is causing the torque to loosen.....I'm not going anal doing any analysis, just fix it via tried method (lock washer) and move on.

fwiw and others who read this thread, Panamorph answered my email and stated they've never heard of this issue until now, they even offered to send me lock washers, I've got plenty of those around.

I edit the email addrersses out so the spammers don't get it.
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 3:23 PM
To: Jason C. Turk
Cc: R, Mike; John S
Subject: Re: Panamorph UH380/480 lens "droop".....

Hi Mike,
Sorry to hear you're having the "droop" issue. Frankly, this is the
first time we've had a complaint of this nature. It certainly hasn't
been brought to my attention as an issue until now. If you will send us
your mailing address we'll be happy to send you two lock-washers that,
hopefully, will eliminate the problem.

Kind Regards,

Dave C
Panamorph Sales Management

I'm very-very satisfied with the optical performance of my lens.
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post #6 of 35 Old 04-08-2009, 09:49 AM
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I have the droop issue too. I'm surprised they never heard this before and dont include some kind of lock washer.
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post #7 of 35 Old 04-08-2009, 11:07 AM
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My old Panamorph used the same clamp method they have always used. It was lighter lens. It losts its setting regularly. Vibratite might help, but a good quality hard (black steel) spring lock washer will probably help. Red loctite might work.
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post #8 of 35 Old 04-09-2009, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well;
After taking the a-lens down and examining the mtg bracket/knob system detail design here are my thoughts/opinions on the UH-380 droop issue:
(I've not done detail technical analysis, sharing my thoughts here)

1) Primary cause: I honestly don't feel there is enough bearing clamp surface on the lens boss/twist knob boss to the attach bracket.
The outside dia of each boss is approx 1/2 inch, you can see in the pict there is very little actual boss surface contact to the mtg bracket.
>>I recommend Panamorph consider re-tooling their lens case with more bearing surface by the threaded nut insert, and see if their knob vendor has "off the shelf" knob with bigger dia boss for the threaded stud to seat into.
This would make for more robust clamp design.

2) Secondary cause: Slight torque loss over time, possible due to vibration(s) of loud HT.
>>quick countermeasure is lock washer, more robust long term c/m might be 1.25 or 1.5 times larger dia knob itself so more inch-pounds of twist via hand can be applied.

Both 1 & 2 together, then some testing to confirm, should ensure no future droop issues.

As a design benchmark exercise I'm not sure what other similar lens have for their mtg system.

Both the case and the knob have approx 1/2" outer dia:


You can see with the slot there is very little actual bearing contact surface, ie, little grip surface for the coeff of friction to do its thing and resist the bending moment of the lens caused by the lens center of gravity being fwd of the pivot.
I tightened the knobs as tightly as I could by hand and I could still push the lens up/down with some effort on my part.
I think fully hand tightened you should not be able to rotate the lens up/down at all, that should be part of their system design spec.


I used quick c/m, lock washer, but fundamental issue of boss too small should be addressed by Panamorph in next design revision of their product




I wonder what sort of DFMEA's Panamorph Mech Engineers have done on this?

2 others that have read this thread have experienced this issue, it's worth while Panamorph to study for future kaizen.
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post #9 of 35 Old 04-09-2009, 03:30 PM
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I'm not experiencing your issues but I am not surprised. I've owned 3 panamorph products and while the end product performance is good, the build quality and quality control on their stuff always seemed a bit lacking. Sometimes, I felt the products were made in somebody's basement and not in some professional facility... things like dirty lenses, cheap casings, etc... I'm not trying to knock on them as I own their products, but they definitely don't come off as a premium grade product.
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post #10 of 35 Old 04-09-2009, 03:30 PM
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I have the same problem with my 480. Its annoying. When you tighten it up, it seems good, then you notice some time later that it has drooped and when I go to adjust it, its loose.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #11 of 35 Old 04-15-2009, 02:22 AM
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I've never had a problem with my UH380. Has been in place (on a slide) for 14 months or more and I haven't had to adjust it once. On average it's moved in and out of place (using slide) 10 times a week.
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post #12 of 35 Old 02-11-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I still experience this lens "droop" issue, and see Panamorph John Schuermann
participates in this forum now.

John - Over 4 years now I've come to just live with the lens droop and re-tighten it when I notice it.

Want you to be aware it is a real issue, do you plan on addressing it with revision to the basic 480 housing or?
The current 480 seems same design in the bracket interface as my 380.

IMO this is the only negative thing to say about your lens system.
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post #13 of 35 Old 02-11-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I still experience this lens "droop" issue, and see Panamorph John Schuermann
participates in this forum now.

John - Over 4 years now I've come to just live with the lens droop and re-tighten it when I notice it.

Want you to be aware it is a real issue, do you plan on addressing it with revision to the basic 480 housing or?
The current 480 seems same design in the bracket interface as my 380.

IMO this is the only negative thing to say about your lens system.

I am sorry to hear that you are having this problem. We would be happy to send you a set of lock washers that will correct the issue. We have only heard this complaint a very few times over the years, but understand that this is causing you (and the others that have posted here) frustration. We apologize for that frustration. For anyone experiencing this issue, please contact Panamorph at 719-266-2680 or sales@panamorph.com and we will be happy to send out a set of lock washers to correct it. We are also including a set of lock washers on all UH480 systems going forward and also note that the DC1 design was engineered when it was released a couple of years ago with a locking pan head screw system for precise alignment.
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post #14 of 35 Old 04-10-2013, 05:21 PM
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Not the same issue - but I have an M480SYS and find that when the lens is in place, it seems to shift the whole image sideways by a few inches. I have lens memory so I can adjust for this, but of course the lens memory is never perfect, so when switching between 1.78 and 2.35 content I find myself always having to make adjustments to the lens shift.
Is this a normal function of this type of lens - or do I have it setup wrong?

The alternative is to keep the lens in place and use AnamorphicB mode on the X95 - but that defeats the purpose of paying for the lens transport.

Just as a side note - I also find that my 480 lens sits rather unsurely in the mount - there are no lock washers on the threads, and unless you are very gentle, the lens has a habit of dropping down when moving it in/out of position. It's a tough one as when you are talking about plastic knobs glues onto a metal thread, how tight is too tight before something breaks?
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post #15 of 35 Old 04-10-2013, 06:05 PM
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Can't speak to the 480 system but with an Isco on a CineSlide, you'd need to adjust the yaw (point lens left/right). Otherwise the image would be off as you describe.
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post #16 of 35 Old 04-10-2013, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Can't speak to the 480 system but with an Isco on a CineSlide, you'd need to adjust the yaw (point lens left/right). Otherwise the image would be off as you describe.

Unless theres something I am missing, the lens doesnt appear to have this adjustment - the mount is securely fastened to the transport, which is securely attached to the adapter plate, which is solid steel. The only adjustment I can see appears to be height and vertical angle.

Hopefully John will see this post and enlighten me smile.gif
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post #17 of 35 Old 04-10-2013, 07:15 PM
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Those who seek enlightenment will be rewarded:

http://www.panamorph.com/8-support/videos

Just watch the install video and all will be made clear. It's for the motorized transport but the same rules apply.
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post #18 of 35 Old 04-10-2013, 09:51 PM
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I'm just a simple wheat farmer (so what do I know) ,but what your looking for is a "star washer" not a "lock washer" for the knobs to hold the lens from moving .Just my two cents and you get what you pay for. Thanks.......
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post #19 of 35 Old 04-10-2013, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morevideoplz View Post

I'm just a simple wheat farmer (so what do I know) ,but what your looking for is a "star washer" not a "lock washer" for the knobs to hold the lens from moving .Just my two cents and you get what you pay for. Thanks.......

Thanks for the suggestion.
I'm not sure what you mean by "you get what you pay for"
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post #20 of 35 Old 04-11-2013, 04:40 PM
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No insult here(I barely can afford used stuff off e bay) ,just my two cents were offered for "free" . I believe that a "lock" washer is more for hard tightening of parts(like with box wrenches and or sockets ) where as a "star" washer is more for holding tension (such as when using a plastic knob to "hand" tighten something) .So if your using wrenches to tighten a nut or bolt on say a car use a split washer (lock washer) but if your putting something together with a plastic knob or an allen wrench (little "L" shaped piece of metal) use a "star" washer.Totally ignore my advise (two cents worth - for free) if the owners manual says anything different, always follow the manual ( use the supplied parts) they know best. For the lens droop maybe use some goo or double sticky tape or a drop of silicon caulk, what do I know? Good luck......
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post #21 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 05:41 AM
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Aha - Glad you cleared that up - I thought you were another one of these "its a cheap prism lens, don't buy anything but an isco" crowd biggrin.gif From my perspective the M480SYS was far from cheap, but still vastly cheaper than spending 4x the amount on an isco+cineslide here in AUS.

And John - thanks for the link. I watched the video and worked out what I was doing with the lens. I spent an hour tonight adjusting my projector and lens to get it into the perfect position for the lens (and without).
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post #22 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 06:34 AM
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I don't know anyone who considers the 480 system to be "cheap", and I'm not criticizing your lens or your choice. It is a popular lens and comes from a company with a good reputation and great guys working with them. You aren't comparing apples and apples when comparing the mounts in particular. The Isco mount is a complex precision machined and anodized assembly with 24 precision machined parts that provide 4 axis of independent, precise adjustment. The 480 has a punched and bent sheet metal bracket with 2 knobs (no offense John). My point is of course it costs more. Stick that mount on a UH480 and it would be up there, too. However my main point of clarification is this; Even with all the extra that goes into the Isco package, an Isco and a CineSlide is not even close to 4x the cost. Unless the M480 system is selling really, really cheap now. And, in AU there's the option of the XEIT as well, also substantially less than an Isco (XL). You may have saved some, and there are reasons for that, but FWIW, it shouldn't have been vastly cheaper.

Cheers smile.gif
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post #23 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 06:47 AM
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You are correct though, it's not apples and apples - the cineslide is the benchmark for transports and the ISCO is a very good lens (understatement). If money was no object it would be among the many things I would upgrade (along with everything!)

I am immensely happy with my 480, however, as it does what I want, at a price I can afford, and whatever image shortcomings it may have compared to the isco I cannot notice it in my limited experience in my setup.

The "cheap" comment came from an Aussie screen manufacturer who told me (responding to an enquiry on if they make curved screens) that I won't need a curved screen, and pincushion isn't a problem although my image quality will suffer using a "cheap, prism based lens such as yours"
Needless to say I didn't buy a screen from there.
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post #24 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 07:30 AM
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Internet discount houses and local B&M dealer pricing is rarely going to compare well. One gives the stuff away, the other has embedded costs to support. And gives value added. Anyway, if you are publishing pricing, to be fair use the same source.
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post #25 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 08:07 AM
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post #26 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyD360 View Post

You are correct though, it's not apples and apples - the cineslide is the benchmark for transports and the ISCO is a very good lens (understatement). If money was no object it would be among the many things I would upgrade (along with everything!)

I am immensely happy with my 480, however, as it does what I want, at a price I can afford, and whatever image shortcomings it may have compared to the isco I cannot notice it in my limited experience in my setup.

The "cheap" comment came from an Aussie screen manufacturer who told me (responding to an enquiry on if they make curved screens) that I won't need a curved screen, and pincushion isn't a problem although my image quality will suffer using a "cheap, prism based lens such as yours"
Needless to say I didn't buy a screen from there.

I would encourage you to perform a blind shootout between the Isco and your 480 with the very best HD content you can find before you "upgrade." smile.gif
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post #27 of 35 Old 04-12-2013, 02:39 PM
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The demo room @ my local had a Sim2 projector with an isco lens on a 140" SMX and I was very much expecting to notice some disparity between my humble setup and that (reasonably) big dollar rig.
My eyes have limited exposure to HT products and I am no expert by any stretch, but when I booted my PJ up (and to this day) there's nothing I can see that's any different in my eyes.
Panamorph was recommended to me a couple of years ago in a HiFi shop when I first got the financially crippling idea to build a HT room and after a bit of looking was the only clear choice for me when it came to lenses, and I was very glad to find a decent one in my budget.
Some may disagree and I certainly wouldn't argue with them, but ultimately I'm the one who has to be happy with my setup and in that regard its mission accomplished.
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post #28 of 35 Old 04-24-2013, 01:21 PM
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I've had my 480 system (AVS purchase) since Dec 2008. It hasn't needed any adjustment what-so-ever. Just an occasional shot of an air duster. And I've probably used the motorized slide 1000 times. I'm extremely pleased w/ the performance of the lens and the slide. Sure if I had the extra $ at the time (2008 was a financially disastrous year) I would have gone Isco/Cineslide. In fact the 480 system was just gonna be a stop-gap for a couple years. But at this point I feel that an upgrade is unnecessary ($ better spent elsewhere on the system).
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post #29 of 35 Old 04-24-2013, 03:29 PM
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Again, I suggest doing a blind shootout between a 480 and an Isco using HD content before considering an "upgrade," with both lenses set up optimally in terms of focus and throw ratio. I don't claim that the 480 is "better," I'm just suggesting that both give excellent results.
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post #30 of 35 Old 06-18-2013, 05:54 AM
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I'm in the process of setting up my UH480 on the motorized sled. Right away I noticed that those knobs alone are not going to hold the lens in place. The motion of moving the lens in and out of the light path along with gravity over time will cause the lens to droop or tilt down. I did not want to tighten the knobs more than beyond hand tight in fear of breaking something. I will make a quick trip to Lowes or Home Depot today for some star washers and maybe a bit of rubber gasketing that has a sticky side. I can tape that to the bracket and then put the star washer on top of that. I don't know, maybe the gasketing would just get in the way but I'm was just thinking it would help protect the finish of the bracket. Anyway, will do some testing tonight to see what works. I also need to pickup some offset screwdrivers because I need to access those top adjustment screws on the sled. My image is shifted to the left by a few inches and I think it just needs a slight bump in the other direction to center it back. My install put the sled so close to the top of a doorjamb that I can't get a screwdriver on top of it.
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