Help me decide. Sim2, 160" scope,DLP/DLA smaller screen??? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 52 Old 08-09-2010, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Gary, thank you very much for the in depth explanation. I will try and answer the questions posed as best I can.


That is a hard question, b/c I have not seen many PJ's that were really bright or really dim. But I have the feeling that I am not one who wants an overly bright image. I have a 65" Panasonic plasma in the living room and I find that too bright a lot of the time , especially at night with all the lights turned off.

Plasmas tend to be around 3 times as bright as a theatre screen. Seeing as you prefer dimmer to brighter, you may be OK with the JVC. You could be changing the lamp once a year or sooner though, depending on when you feel it's too dim. If you don't notice it dimming you could end up being quite happy for much longer.

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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

That is very interesting stuff. All I have been going is the recommended light of 12 FL. I also had no idea that is how low the theatres were.

Apparently they run the lamps lower to conserve energy and make it last longer - the lamps are Xenon which is closer to daylight spectrum (rather than cheaper UHP, and film projectors can't adjust colour so easily like a digital can), and they're very expensive, but by some accounts it's a false economy.

I've found that for me, 12fL is a max because image noise with SD material starts to become a problem (and I still have a large back catalogue of DVDs), so I like to set up for 12fL on a new lamp (and this may require filters) and then wait until the lamp is dim enough and remove the filter. With the JVC you have an iris you could play with to check out image brightness. Be aware that although our eyes are adaptive, we tend to be drawn to a brighter image in some circumstances and prefer that image over the dimmer one, so when dimming an image, it's better to give it some time for you to become accustomed to it. Given your screen size, I don't think brightness (or too much of it) is going to be a problem.

According toe Cine4Homes 550 review, the 550 has around 840 lumens on max zoom when calibrated to D65, but when using a lens you'll need to use less zoom to avoid vignetting. On min zoom the 550 has around 605 lumens so you may get a little more if you have the zoom somewhere in between (and depending on the lens orifice). More zoom with an A lens gives more pincushion.

With 605 lumens you will have a little under 11fL on your 148" wide AT screen, and that will dim to around 10 pretty quickly. You may find you need a new lamp by the end of the year.


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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Very interesting, I have not even thought about what will happen when watching SD stuff. There is one good thing with the Sim2 on top of the stella image , is the fact that you could possibly keep the brightness the same right until the end of its life. But I would gather that would require constant adjusting as it ages. That could be something that the Led PJ's will have the advantage.

LED does seem like the holy grail for lamp replacement. It'll be interesting to see how they perform in reality.

In a way it's better to have more lumens than you need because you can reduce them using filters or an internal iris if it has it. If you're lacking lumens to start with then it's not so easy since you can't make any more except perhaps by not using a calibrated image and/or you need to buy lamps sooner. Depending on how picky you are on image quality, and how important an image calibrated to D65 is to you, you can sometimes compromise by having 90% of the image accurate, but allow the top 10% remain bluer and give you a brighter peak 'white'. Most images don't have 100% white in them a lot of the time so in the most part you'll probably not notice this. For some people though, that would be sacrilege so again it's down to personal preference.


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Definitely liked the theater experience due to the absolute size and the fact that I was sitting probably about 1.5 times screen height. I did move closer to the 150" when I saw it and found that I liked the seating closer.

If you want to sit as close as 2 x IH or closer, you may prefer the JVC due to it's smaller pixel gaps compared to other technologies. At 2 x IH SDE can become visible in brighter images with DLP and LCD (that doesn't employ some form of SDE removal like the Panasonics).

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I am going to be using a lens, but I won't have a chance to demo any PJ's. I was thinking of buying the cheaper JVC 550 and take things from there. This would give me a feel of what I liked and didn't, in regards to seating distance and brightness.

Probably not a bad idea - it's not unusual for people to upgrade every two or three years anyway, so you could sell it on and use the money towards the next pj you purchase, and you'll know more about what you like etc. Unless LED and/or 3D become the thing to have, you should get a reasonable return I would think, judging by the second user prices I've seen over here. I think you've a better chance of selling on a JVC than a C3X due to price.

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I will probably watch about 10 hours a week at max, don't have much time with the kids being small. But I am sure that will rise as the kids get into more movies over the next few years. I could always throw the lamp when I felt the image got too dull , even if it was at only half its life.

It's something to consider as is the extra cost involved. I'm not sure of the price difference between the C3X and the 550 (which may make the JVC plus lamps cost in better), but both produce images that although have a different look about them, you will be extremely pleased with. You can't lose IMHO except with the potential SDE issue with the Sim at 2 x or closer seating..

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If all I need is 700 Lumens , then how about the Vivitek Led H9080FD, that is supposed to have 800 lumens and the bulbs don't age as quick as conventional bulbs?

I've not seen the Vivitek - I've seen the JVC and Sim, and although the Vivitek may have a lamp advantage, being DLP, SDE may still cause a problem at closer seating distances. I don't know if the quoted lumens are at D65 or closer to native. In which case it may be dimmer than the JVC when set for video even using out of the box settings. At least it should remain at the level you end up with.

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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I wish I could, but there is no way I can see a Sim2 here in Japan. Japan BTW.

IMHO you will be very happy with either - both have their pros and cons and it's a tough call. Lumens advantage with the Sim, and a reduced chance of SDE with the JVC. As has been said, only a demo will tell you what you need to know, but I think the JVC would be a good starter machine.

I think someone else has already suggested that you could get teh pj first and experiment with image sizes on a white wall before deciding on a screen size. It's a good way to find the size and seating distance that works with the particular pj you've chosen, and then you don't make mistakes with the wrong size screen and/or seating placement.

Does Dennis's plans have specific placement for the seating? I'm just wondering if changing things too much may have a detrimental effect on his acoustics calculations etc.

Gary

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post #32 of 52 Old 08-09-2010, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

Plasmas tend to be around 3 times as bright as a theatre screen. Seeing as you prefer dimmer to brighter, you may be OK with the JVC. You could be changing the lamp once a year or sooner though, depending on when you feel it's too dim. If you don't notice it dimming you could end up being quite happy for much longer.

 That what I was thinking, but since I have not really experienced many PJ's I can not be sure.



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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

I've found that for me, 12fL is a max because image noise with SD material starts to become a problem (and I still have a large back catalogue of DVDs), so I like to set up for 12fL on a new lamp (and this may require filters) and then wait until the lamp is dim enough and remove the filter. With the JVC you have an iris you could play with to check out image brightness. Be aware that although our eyes are adaptive, we tend to be drawn to a brighter image in some circumstances and prefer that image over the dimmer one, so when dimming an image, it's better to give it some time for you to become accustomed to it. Given your screen size, I don't think brightness (or too much of it) is going to be a problem.

Didn't know about the iris on the JVC, but like you said if I go the screen size I am thinking I probably won't have that problem.


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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

According toe Cine4Homes 550 review, the 550 has around 840 lumens on max zoom when calibrated to D65, but when using a lens you'll need to use less zoom to avoid vignetting. On min zoom the 550 has around 605 lumens so you may get a little more if you have the zoom somewhere in between (and depending on the lens orifice). More zoom with an A lens gives more pincushion.

Yes, I have seen a lens that had a throw ratio of about 1.4, it did have some pin cushion but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Actually I don't think you would notice it after a while. Plus there is also the option of a curved screen, which will also ultimately affect the what you will actually see on screen, which is why if I did go the curved route I would want the widest possible screen I could get.

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

With 605 lumens you will have a little under 11fL on your 148" wide AT screen, and that will dim to around 10 pretty quickly. You may find you need a new lamp by the end of the year.




LED does seem like the holy grail for lamp replacement. It'll be interesting to see how they perform in reality.

If I only had to replace the lamp every year, I would be very happy with that. I was thinking more along the lines of twice a year.

The LED PJ's have yet to prove themselves?

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

If you want to sit as close as 2 x IH or closer, you may prefer the JVC due to it's smaller pixel gaps compared to other technologies. At 2 x IH SDE can become visible in brighter images with DLP and LCD (that doesn't employ some form of SDE removal like the Panasonics).

I am pretty sure the the PJ I saw the 150" was an LCD and I wasn't really bothered by the SDE at 2.4 or even when I walked closer to the screen. When I looked for the SDE, I certainly noticed it, but I seem to be one of those people who are not bothered too much by it. Of corse it would be better if it was not there and I do appreciate nice PQ, I just don't let it bother me.


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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

I've not seen the Vivitek - I've seen the JVC and Sim, and although the Vivitek may have a lamp advantage, being DLP, SDE may still cause a problem at closer seating distances. I don't know if the quoted lumens are at D65 or closer to native. In which case it may be dimmer than the JVC when set for video even using out of the box settings. At least it should remain at the level you end up with.

From what I have read it seems that the PQ is similar to that of the JVC and so is the perceived contrast and all the while seemed brighter. That is just what I have read on some the reveiws.



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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

IMHO you will be very happy with either - both have their pros and cons and it's a tough call. Lumens advantage with the Sim, and a reduced chance of SDE with the JVC. As has been said, only a demo will tell you what you need to know, but I think the JVC would be a good starter machine.

I think someone else has already suggested that you could get teh pj first and experiment with image sizes on a white wall before deciding on a screen size. It's a good way to find the size and seating distance that works with the particular pj you've chosen, and then you don't make mistakes with the wrong size screen and/or seating placement.

Does Dennis's plans have specific placement for the seating? I'm just wondering if changing things too much may have a detrimental effect on his acoustics calculations etc.

Gary

If memory serves, I think Dennis and I settled on a 3.8m Veiwing distance, I am sure I could probably move that forward or back 6" or so with out any affect of the acoustics side of things.

Although I agree with the idea of getting the PJ first, the PJ would have to be able to handle the biggest screen that I have in mind, then I could work back from there. One of the reasons why I have been looking at the Sim2.

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post #33 of 52 Old 08-11-2010, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I am seriously considering going the TRUE VUE Vango led PJ. It gives out 728 D65 calibrated lumens and being LED the bulb won't dim like other PJ's. Also it seems to have that punch that all the LED DLP PJ's that people have been talking about. So this should give me about 12fl of light in a totally controlled room.

It is not the cost of not having to change the bulbs that interests me, it is the consistency that it will have. I don't have a lot of time as is with my business.

Any thoughts on this idea?

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Ok, I am seriously considering going the TRUE VUE Vango led PJ. It gives out 728 D65 calibrated lumens and being LED the bulb won't dim like other PJ's. Also it seems to have that punch that all the LED DLP PJ's that people have been talking about. So this should give me about 12fl of light in a totally controlled room.

It is not the cost of not having to change the bulbs that interests me, it is the consistency that it will have. I don't have a lot of time as is with my business.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Good you are up....was worried I would call too early. Calling in just a few.
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I wish I could, but there is no way I can see a Sim2 here in Japan. Japan BTW.

I was lucky to see a Sim 2 beautiful projector beautiful picture

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post #36 of 52 Old 08-15-2010, 06:56 PM
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I was lucky to see a Sim 2 beautiful projector beautiful picture

And they are certainly just that...beautiful.
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Ok, I am seriously considering going the TRUE VUE Vango led PJ. It gives out 728 D65 calibrated lumens and being LED the bulb won't dim like other PJ's. Also it seems to have that punch that all the LED DLP PJ's that people have been talking about. So this should give me about 12fl of light in a totally controlled room.

It is not the cost of not having to change the bulbs that interests me, it is the consistency that it will have. I don't have a lot of time as is with my business.

Any thoughts on this idea?

What about the Runco led? I've been told there very good projectors. Still working on my wife trying to get one. She's under the impression if it ain't broke why replace it.

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post #38 of 52 Old 08-15-2010, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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What about the Runco led? I've been told there very good projectors. Still working on my wife trying to get one. She's under the impression if it ain't broke why replace it.

Yes, the Runco LED does look like an amazing machine.

You know what they say, "it is always better to ask forgiveness than permission".

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Yes, the Runco LED does look like an amazing machine.

You know what they say, "it is always better to ask forgiveness than permission".

Not my wife

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Not my wife

Well there is only one thing you can do then and that is break it! LOL

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Well there is only one thing you can do then and that is break it! LOL

I would need to sell it

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I would need to sell it

I didn't mean really break it!

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I would need to sell it

How about having your house burglarized?

"No honey, they only took the projector. Weird!"
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how about having your house burglarized?

"no honey, they only took the projector. Weird!"

lol :d

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Well, I finally made a decision and it looks like I will be going with the Vango LED.

Really looking forward to seeing what it can do. Thanks to everyone for putting up with me and helping me out.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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Thanks again Dave!
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No worries Jason. It has been a pleasure so far.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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Well, I finally made a decision and it looks like I will be going with the Vango LED.

Really looking forward to seeing what it can do. Thanks to everyone for putting up with me and helping me out.

Looking forward in reading your impressions Dave

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Looking forward in reading your impressions Dave

Will do.

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post #50 of 52 Old 08-21-2010, 12:18 PM
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No worries Jason. It has been a pleasure so far.

Glad you are happy thus far...I am working on your unit as we speak and so far so good!
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post #51 of 52 Old 08-21-2010, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad you are happy thus far...I am working on your unit as we speak and so far so good!

Sounds great! Looking forward to setting it up!

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post #52 of 52 Old 08-23-2010, 08:38 AM
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I got your note and am making the necessary adjustments. It will ship no later than tomorrow.
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