Help me decide. Sim2, 160" scope,DLP/DLA smaller screen??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 08-02-2010, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, posted a few threads on screen size and PJ's before and have received great advise. The problem is I am still as undecided as I was before and I have even been procrastinating on posting this thread.

Ok, my dilemma,

1.I am looking at either a 139" or 148" wide screen if I can. (I really want a 148")
2. There are not many PJ's that will light up a 139" wide screen let alone a 148", so I need a PJ to at least be able to take on a 1.2 gain screen.
3.Would I notice the difference in screen impact if I choose the smaller screen and sat closer? (I like a seating distance of about 2.4 times the height by what I have looked at so far)
4. This is my first time to buy a PJ so I have no pre-determined ideas. Good thing.
5. B/c this is my first PJ I was thinking I should start out with something cheaper, to see where my preferences will be.


So I have been looking at the BenQ with the 148" wide screen and the 550 DLA for the 139" wide screen. I have demoed neither of them and any PJ purchase will be blind. If I go with the 148" combo, I was wanting to go with the Sim2 3 chip and wait for the 3D model to see how it is received. (I say wait for 3D b/c this will be a family theater and my kids love the 3D animated stuff) The thing is , if I go with any type of Sim2 PJ I am thinking that it would be a waste to have it shine on a 139" wide screen when I can have a 148" wide screen? But as I said earlier I could sit closer and and maybe get a brighter image and have more impact. What to do, what to do.

If I am not making sense, it is b/c I am totally lost on what I should do. So just slap me a few times and I should be fine.


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post #2 of 52 Old 08-02-2010, 08:56 PM
 
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I've been viewing scope films at 139" wide with the W6000 from about 12ft away. Love it. I am using a high power screen, although this was mainly for the daytime advantages. In the dark, I have way more than enough light for this size.

That said, if you have room for bigger, go bigger (within limits of course). Knowing what I know about the size I have now in relation to a smaller screen but same relative seating distance, raw size counts. A lot. Too big is not something many people regret. Not big enough, especially when you have room for it... this happens more.

The problem is, if this is your first setup and you never see that 148", you won't know any better. So 139" will blow your mind anyway... and make projector/screen material decisions more flexible.

Read through this recent thread too, may help: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1259024
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post #3 of 52 Old 08-02-2010, 09:51 PM
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Based on your signature, I can see that you are a man of discerning taste.

Have you tried the routine where you go to a movie theater, find your favorite seat in the house, estimate the distance to screen and screen width via pacing them off, and then scaling that ratio to your room?

If you can, buy the projector first (ensuring enough lumens for both screen size scenarios), and then test out the alternative sizes before buying / building the screen.


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post #4 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 02:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

I've been viewing scope films at 139" wide with the W6000 from about 12ft away. Love it. I am using a high power screen, although this was mainly for the daytime advantages. In the dark, I have way more than enough light for this size.

That said, if you have room for bigger, go bigger (within limits of course). Knowing what I know about the size I have now in relation to a smaller screen but same relative seating distance, raw size counts. A lot. Too big is not something many people regret. Not big enough, especially when you have room for it... this happens more.

The problem is, if this is your first setup and you never see that 148", you won't know any better. So 139" will blow your mind anyway... and make projector/screen material decisions more flexible.

Read through this recent thread too, may help: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1259024

Problem is I have seen a 150" scope setup with the seating distance at about 2.4 and I found that I wanted more, or felt I could have been closer.

But , like you said, size is always going to have more impact with everything else equal. But the reality is that not all PJ's are equal, hense my dilemma.

I am hearing great things about the Benq W6000 for its price, but I have also heard that the Vivitek H5080 was good. I guess , in the long run if I am going to go with a Sim2 PJ I would be better off with the bigger screen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Based on your signature, I can see that you are a man of discerning taste.

Have you tried the routine where you go to a movie theater, find your favorite seat in the house, estimate the distance to screen and screen width via pacing them off, and then scaling that ratio to your room?

If you can, buy the projector first (ensuring enough lumens for both screen size scenarios), and then test out the alternative sizes before buying / building the screen.

Yes, I have done the theater thing and I went and saw Avatar 4 times, sat in the very front row for one, at the back of the front row section the second time and the front row of the middle section the third and and the same place the forth time. I did prefer sitting at the back of the front row section , but the absolute front row seats where fine too (The only thing was the seats were too low, if they were higher that seat would be fine for me.)


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post #5 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 03:36 AM
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Is this theater room just for you? If so, go big-big as you are thinking to satisfy your desire.
Or do you have others to consider?
While total immersion may be the ticket for you, will others feel the same or possibly be overwhelmed? Just a thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Problem is I have seen a 150" scope setup with the seating distance at about 2.4 and I found that I wanted more, or felt I could have been closer.

But , like you said, size is always going to have more impact with everything else equal. But the reality is that not all PJ's are equal, hense my dilemma.

I am hearing great things about the Benq W6000 for its price, but I have also heard that the Vivitek H5080 was good. I guess , in the long run if I am going to go with a Sim2 PJ I would be better off with the bigger screen?

Yes, I have done the theater thing and I went and saw Avatar 4 times, sat in the very front row for one, at the back of the front row section the second time and the front row of the middle section the third and and the same place the forth time. I did prefer sitting at the back of the front row section , but the absolute front row seats where fine too (The only thing was the seats were too low, if they were higher that seat would be fine for me.)


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post #6 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Is this theater room just for you? If so, go big-big as you are thinking to satisfy your desire.
Or do you have others to consider?
While total immersion may be the ticket for you, will others feel the same or possibly be overwhelmed? Just a thought.

It is mainly just for me, but my kids will be watching a lot of 16:9 content(A lot of the kids movies here are 16:9) Besides that, they always want to sit up front of the movie theater, so there is no problem there.

On a different note, does anyone know where you can pickup a Sim2 C3X under MSRP? The only prices I can find are MSRP, does AVS stock them?


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post #7 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 07:37 AM
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We do not stock Sim2, but we can get them (though there are restrictions on them).

Truthfully not much is going to light that size screen well, sans 3 chip DLP. If you do buy a projector with more typical light output, I'd HIGHLY recommend trying it on a wall or such to start so that you can play with sizes. This is especially good if you are new to front projection...
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post #8 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

It is mainly just for me, but my kids will be watching a lot of 16:9 content(A lot of the kids movies here are 16:9) Besides that, they always want to sit up front of the movie theater, so there is no problem there.

On a different note, does anyone know where you can pickup a Sim2 C3X under MSRP? The only prices I can find are MSRP, does AVS stock them?

no price discussion allowed, but i can say u should be able to buy it very significantly less than the MSRP. To the extent, it almost sounds like an affordable projector, for what it offers.
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post #9 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 02:34 PM
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JapanDave:
I have a JVC RS35 and started out at 120" diagonal 16/9. I quickly realized I wanted to go full screen for 2.35/1 movies so I stayed at 120" 16/9 (58" high) and went to 150" diagonal for scope movies (138" wide). I sit 12 feet away and am close to the shortest throw distance. I was concerned at first that it would not be bright enough but I have had my previous TV's calibrated and already knew that I didn't like a bright image.

Long story short it was an excellent decision for me. I DIY'ed both my screens so there wasn't a huge investment to worry about. They are both Seymore AT screens with a gain of 1.0 to 1.2 depending on where you read about it.

I have about 400 hours on my PJ so hopefully it won't get too dull as the lamp ages. I already am prepared to buy a new one a little more often if I have to. I also will do the lamp/prism cleaning when I notice any dimming.

If you like an extremely bright image or have much ambient lite it may not work for you, but if I had the room I would go to 149" just to see if I liked it.

Also I am following your thread on Seaton Sound forum as I have a Subm (assuming that there aren't 2 JapanDave's out there ). Hope you get that all straightened out soon. My ultimate goal is to have Cat 12c's or 8c's myself.

Hope this helps
Moto
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post #10 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

To the extent, it almost sounds like an affordable projector, for what it offers.

Hmm... sounding better everytime I think about it.

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Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

JapanDave:
I have a JVC RS35 and started out at 120" diagonal 16/9. I quickly realized I wanted to go full screen for 2.35/1 movies so I stayed at 120" 16/9 (58" high) and went to 150" diagonal for scope movies (138" wide). I sit 12 feet away and am close to the shortest throw distance. I was concerned at first that it would not be bright enough but I have had my previous TV's calibrated and already knew that I didn't like a bright image.

Long story short it was an excellent decision for me. I DIY'ed both my screens so there wasn't a huge investment to worry about. They are both Seymore AT screens with a gain of 1.0 to 1.2 depending on where you read about it.

I have about 400 hours on my PJ so hopefully it won't get too dull as the lamp ages. I already am prepared to buy a new one a little more often if I have to. I also will do the lamp/prism cleaning when I notice any dimming.

If you like an extremely bright image or have much ambient lite it may not work for you, but if I had the room I would go to 149" just to see if I liked it.

Also I am following your thread on Seaton Sound forum as I have a Subm (assuming that there aren't 2 JapanDave's out there ). Hope you get that all straightened out soon. My ultimate goal is to have Cat 12c's or 8c's myself.

Hope this helps
Moto

Thanks for the detailed reply. It is completely light controlled and if I was to go 150" diagonal, I will probably go with the JVC for the time being, but I was thinking I would be pushing it to go with a 160" diagonal, however, I am not one who likes an overly bright image from what I can tell.

Thanks for the support on the sound system, there is no way I want to give those speakers up if I can help, just too good at what they do. I just hope I can get the electrical side of things sorted.


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post #11 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 07:21 PM
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...image brightness requirements is relative to room light conditions in a major way. If you have a complete light controlled dedicated theater room with a dark room decor, it requires considerably less image brightness to achieve a satisfying experience. Screen gain is also a secondary factor. Any advice concerning this projector with that screen size depends entirely upon the room environment context. Contrast rules -- if you have ambient light conditions, it will degrade the blacks such that no level of brightness can make the image satisfactory -- regardless of projector and screen size.

Are Eleven Channels Really Enough?

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post #12 of 52 Old 08-03-2010, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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...image brightness requirements is relative to room light conditions in a major way. If you have a complete light controlled dedicated theater room with a dark room decor, it requires considerably less image brightness to achieve a satisfying experience. Screen gain is also a secondary factor. Any advice concerning this projector with that screen size depends entirely upon the room environment context. Contrast rules -- if you have ambient light conditions, it will degrade the blacks such that no level of brightness can make the image satisfactory -- regardless of projector and screen size.

My room is performance first (contractors start the build in a month), so decore is all completely black and so are the walls and celling, except for the carpet which will be a very dark color. No windows , which means no ambient light from out side. The PJ will be housed in a hush box to stop and light spill and sound. AV equipment will be in reccessed section will a door to stop any light escaping. Also the screen will be 1.2 gain. So pretty much it is as light controlled as you can get, I am someone who chooses performance over looks, to the dismay of the wife, but it is my room and she has no say!


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post #13 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
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My room is performance first (contractors start the build in a month), so decore is all completely black and so are the walls and celling, except for the carpet which will be a very dark color.

Having had a black room, I have just one word for why I would never do another - DUST! Yes you do get the best CR, however (and maybe because I used flat black) it was a pain to maintain. If you wiped a patch of wall, it marked and the only way to restore the finish was to paint it again.

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post #14 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 04:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Having had a black room, I have just one word for why I would never do another - DUST! Yes you do get the best CR, however (and maybe because I used flat black) it was a pain to maintain. If you wiped a patch of wall, it marked and the only way to restore the finish was to paint it again.

Hey Mark,

Every surface is going to be fabric except the pillars.


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post #15 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 06:48 AM
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Sounds like you are doing it right...full dedicated room. Kudos.
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post #16 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you are doing it right...full dedicated room. Kudos.

Hopefuly, the designs for the room were done by Dennis Erskine.


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post #17 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
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Hopefuly, the designs for the room were done by Dennis Erskine.

...If Dennis is involved I'll assume you're going with an acoustically transparent screen with front speakers behind?

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post #18 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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...If Dennis is involved I'll assume you're going with an acoustically transparent screen with front speakers behind?

Yes, you would be correct. The screen has a gain of 1.2 BTW


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post #19 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 06:52 PM
 
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Yes, you would be correct. The screen has a gain of 1.2 BTW

Is this spec or actually measured?
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post #20 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Is this spec or actually measured?

It will be the SMX CineWeave HD. I may have over estimated, it is 1.16 gain, I just rounded up b/c I am too lazy to type the extra digit.


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post #21 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 07:20 PM
 
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If it's actually 1.16 gain, you're probably looking at 800-1000 calibrated lumens at a minimum for that 148" wide.
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post #22 of 52 Old 08-04-2010, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If it's actually 1.16 gain, you're probably looking at 800-1000 calibrated lumens at a minimum for that 148" wide.

That is what I was thinking. And with aging bulbs I would want something that could pump out at least 1200-1300 at minimum. This does not leave many single chip DLP that could handle that.


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post #23 of 52 Old 08-05-2010, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
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Hopefuly, the designs for the room were done by Dennis Erskine.

Well then I have no concerns. FYI I will call you tonight.
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post #24 of 52 Old 08-05-2010, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Well then I have no concerns. FYI I will call you tonight.

Thanks, looking forward to speaking to you.


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post #25 of 52 Old 08-05-2010, 09:06 AM
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Welcome!
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post #26 of 52 Old 08-08-2010, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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So , anyone else with any ideas?

Still waiting on Jason to give me a call on the Sim2, but if anyone else has any suggestions I am all ears?


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post #27 of 52 Old 08-08-2010, 05:30 AM
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What kind of image brightness do you prefer? If you like the type of brightness you get at the cinema which is in reality is usually around 7 to 9fL, then the JVC will fit the bill.

In a completely blacked out room even 3fL can produce a very watchable image, but of course you need to see the different levels to know what you prefer and can live with. Most people have no idea how bright their image really is and most are probably a lot dimmer than they think. The 3fL example is prime example.

With a 148" screen you will have a screen area of around 65 square feet. For 12fL on your AT screen you will need 700 lumens. The lamp will of course dim with age, but depending on how much you use it depends on how long you will go before it gets to a level where you feel you need to change the lamp, and that of course depends on you as an individual. You need a reduction of around 82% in lumens before you perceive it to be 50% as dim. That's one of the reasons people don't realise how dim their images may be.

If you go for the Sim, you may find the image too bright, but you can dim this down with an ND filter )use a good quality glass one to reduce any impact in ANSI. Even Hoyas don't have a visible effect (may be measurable though), and later when the lamp dims you can remove it to get more light back.

If you intend to watch any SD material you may find that too bright an image will enhance any source imperfections such as compression artefacts. For me, I find that 12fL may be as bright as you want to go before artefacts start to become a problem. We're all different though and you may not notice or be as bothered by them as some people are. You say you prefer a dimmer image to a bright one so it sounds like this may be preferential for you.

As for image size and impact between the two screen sizes, with the difference being only 9 ins (difference in screen area is only around 7 square feet), I doubt you'd notice any difference provided you kept the same seating distance ratio. Although we are aware of absolute size, when viewing in a dark room with no other references to compare, you're unlikely to notice the size difference. What you're most likely to notice is the amount of immersion though, so seating distance is key. For example, if you sit in the back row of a commercial theatre, and then compare to sitting at an optimal distance with a 139" screen at home, you'll probably find the closer seating distance and visual impact to be preferential on the smaller screen. Having sat in the back row at a commercial theatre I found the experience visually underwhelming compared to smaller domestic set ups when sat closer. How do you think your Avatar experiments compare to the 150" screen you saw? It might be difficult to compare since you sat pretty close with Avatar anyway, and if Avatar was 16:9 the comparison isn't the same (i.e not comparing scope with scope). It might help some though.

You may want to try sitting at 2x the image height if you've no problem with 2.4. I've tried 2 with a JVC using a Schneider anamorphic lens and it was very immersive and enjoyable - no problems at all. With a DLP at that close you may notice screen door occasionally. If you are going to zoom rather than use a lens then those closer seating distances may not be viable, depending whether you use DLP or DiLA. You're going to have to experiment or get some demos to know that though.

You may also find that a smaller screen in a large room doesn't look as impressive as a larger screen when the lights are up, and it does look better to fill the screen wall more. Aesthetics are of course a different matter to how you want to see the movies though, and that's more important.

Ideally you need to demo, but if this is going to be difficult, you're taking a bit of a gamble with either lumens (maybe not enough in the long term) or seating distance and pixel visibility (DLP vs DiLA). If you go JVC you may have to buy a lamp sooner than with the Sim, but overall it would be a cheaper purchase, even if you bought the JVC with a spare lamp now. Any ideas on how many hours a week you'll be watching?

Gary

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post #28 of 52 Old 08-08-2010, 06:32 AM
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Dave,
I recommend seeing projectors before buying. If you are building you have plenty of time. Where are you located ?

Art


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post #29 of 52 Old 08-08-2010, 02:20 PM
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post #30 of 52 Old 08-09-2010, 03:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Gary, thank you very much for the in depth explanation. I will try and answer the questions posed as best I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

What kind of image brightness do you prefer? If you like the type of brightness you get at the cinema which is in reality is usually around 7 to 9fL, then the JVC will fit the bill.

That is a hard question, b/c I have not seen many PJ's that were really bright or really dim. But I have the feeling that I am not one who wants an overly bright image. I have a 65" Panasonic plasma in the living room and I find that too bright a lot of the time , especially at night with all the lights turned off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

In a completely blacked out room even 3fL can produce a very watchable image, but of course you need to see the different levels to know what you prefer and can live with. Most people have no idea how bright their image really is and most are probably a lot dimmer than they think. The 3fL example is prime example.

With a 148" screen you will have a screen area of around 65 square feet. For 12fL on your AT screen you will need 700 lumens. The lamp will of course dim with age, but depending on how much you use it depends on how long you will go before it gets to a level where you feel you need to change the lamp, and that of course depends on you as an individual. You need a reduction of around 82% in lumens before you perceive it to be 50% as dim. That's one of the reasons people don't realise how dim their images may be.

That is very interesting stuff. All I have been going is the recommended light of 12 FL. I also had no idea that is how low the theaters were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

If you go for the Sim, you may find the image too bright, but you can dim this down with an ND filter )use a good quality glass one to reduce any impact in ANSI. Even Hoyas don't have a visible effect (may be measurable though), and later when the lamp dims you can remove it to get more light back.

If you intend to watch any SD material you may find that too bright an image will enhance any source imperfections such as compression artefacts. For me, I find that 12fL may be as bright as you want to go before artefacts start to become a problem. We're all different though and you may not notice or be as bothered by them as some people are. You say you prefer a dimmer image to a bright one so it sounds like this may be preferential for you.

Very interesting, I have not even thought about what will happen when watching SD stuff. There is one good thing with the Sim2 on top of the stella image , is the fact that you could possibly keep the brightness the same right until the end of its life. But I would gather that would require constant adjusting as it ages. That could be something that the Led PJ's will have the advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

As for image size and impact between the two screen sizes, with the difference being only 9 ins (difference in screen area is only around 7 square feet), I doubt you'd notice any difference provided you kept the same seating distance ratio. Although we are aware of absolute size, when viewing in a dark room with no other references to compare, you're unlikely to notice the size difference. What you're most likely to notice is the amount of immersion though, so seating distance is key. For example, if you sit in the back row of a commercial theatre, and then compare to sitting at an optimal distance with a 139" screen at home, you'll probably find the closer seating distance and visual impact to be preferential on the smaller screen. Having sat in the back row at a commercial theatre I found the experience visually underwhelming compared to smaller domestic set ups when sat closer. How do you think your Avatar experiments compare to the 150" screen you saw? It might be difficult to compare since you sat pretty close with Avatar anyway, and if Avatar was 16:9 the comparison isn't the same (i.e not comparing scope with scope). It might help some though.

Definitely liked the theater experience due to the absolute size and the fact that I was sitting probably about 1.5 times screen height. I did move closer to the 150" when I saw it and found that I liked the seating closer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

You may want to try sitting at 2x the image height if you've no problem with 2.4. I've tried 2 with a JVC using a Schneider anamorphic lens and it was very immersive and enjoyable - no problems at all. With a DLP at that close you may notice screen door occasionally. If you are going to zoom rather than use a lens then those closer seating distances may not be viable, depending whether you use DLP or DiLA. You're going to have to experiment or get some demos to know that though.

You may also find that a smaller screen in a large room doesn't look as impressive as a larger screen when the lights are up, and it does look better to fill the screen wall more. Aesthetics are of course a different matter to how you want to see the movies though, and that's more important.

Ideally you need to demo, but if this is going to be difficult, you're taking a bit of a gamble with either lumens (maybe not enough in the long term) or seating distance and pixel visibility (DLP vs DiLA). If you go JVC you may have to buy a lamp sooner than with the Sim, but overall it would be a cheaper purchase, even if you bought the JVC with a spare lamp now. Any ideas on how many hours a week you'll be watching?

Gary

I am going to be using a lens, but I won't have a chance to demo any PJ's. I was thinking of buying the cheaper JVC 550 and take things from there. This would give me a feel of what I liked and didn't, in regards to seating distance and brightness.

I will probably watch about 10 hours a week at max, don't have much time with the kids being small. But I am sure that will rise as the kids get into more movies over the next few years. I could always throw the lamp when I felt the image got too dull , even if it was at only half its life.

If all I need is 700 Lumens , then how about the Vivitek Led H9080FD, that is supposed to have 800 lumens and the bulbs don't age as quick as conventional bulbs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Dave,
I recommend seeing projectors before buying. If you are building you have plenty of time. Where are you located ?

Art

I wish I could, but there is no way I can see a Sim2 here in Japan. Japan BTW.


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