CIH ALERT: NEW JVC PROJECTORS W. 4K simulation and Lens Memory! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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(I thought the implications for CIH set ups deserved it's own thread):

You'll find reports in this thread, starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20918638

Also:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...Serie_2011.htm

JVC Press Release:

http://www.virtualpressoffice.com/pu...ws&sId=&sInfo=

This seems to be a very enticing new option for CIH enthusiasts. Two of JVC's new consumer models now offer 4K resolution (effectively) increases the pixel density to the point observers report pixel visibility effectively becomes a non-issue, plus the addition of a lens memory function (a la Panasonic) to automate switches between ARs at the press of a button.

So 2 of the reasons often cited for spending money for an A-lens - to decrease pixel visibility/add pixel density and to automate AR switching for ease of use - are now offered in these projectors for no additional price over last year's models! It seems to me (unless I'm missing something) that the only advantage adding an A-lens to these projectors would be for the possible small boost in brightness for scope movies.

But if you don't feel you need that, and you like the JVC image quality...JVC seems possibly to have tilted the scales somewhat toward zooming for some people. For essentially no more cost than last year's model, you now get some of the advantages as if you'd spent the money on an Anamorphic Lens as well. And given that some A-lens systems require additional money for an automated A-Lens for remote control, the money one potentially saves adds up big time. Great to have this new option!
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post #2 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 07:55 AM
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I've said for quite some time that 4K could allow people to discard their anamorphic lenses by either zooming for CIH or even using scaling for a CIA setup. It appears that the combination of lens memory and higher resolution on the new e-shift (wobulated 4K) JVCs will easily tip the scales in favor of zooming for a CIH setup. The only benefit that a lens offers in this case is an increase in brightness over zooming when using a larger screen, or in 3D mode.

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post #3 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 08:57 AM
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Screen size is also a limiting factor for zooming. With a lens, I was able to use a larger screen in my small room. Also, you still need a scaler to watch films like Avatar and The Dark Night in scope.

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #4 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

Screen size is also a limiting factor for zooming. With a lens, I was able to use a larger screen in my small room. Also, you still need a scaler to watch films like Avatar and The Dark Night in scope.

True, in situations where throw is a limiting factor, an anamorphic lens can allow a greater screen size.

And the scaler isn't completely necessary if you have masking sufficient to eliminate the black bars regions in a zoom setup.

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post #5 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

Screen size is also a limiting factor for zooming. With a lens, I was able to use a larger screen in my small room. Also, you still need a scaler to watch films like Avatar and The Dark Night in scope.

In a case where a lens allows for a larger screen, you end up using the lens with a very short throw. This often results in unacceptable lens distortions/issues. Sounds like this is what happened in your setup.
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post #6 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post


And the scaler isn't completely necessary if you have masking sufficient to eliminate the black bars regions in a zoom setup.

Apparently the JVC lens memory feature also "eliminates black bars" (presumably via scaling...?...).
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post #7 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Apparently the JVC lens memory feature also "eliminates black bars" (presumably via scaling...?...).

Wow

The cheapest JVC with 4K retails at $7,999.99 so street price will be over 5K. In this economy, it's out of my price range.

I bet we will be seeing a bunch of used RS40's for sale in the six months.

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post #8 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 11:15 AM
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How do these new projectors display 4k when the display chips have not changed from 1920x 1080?
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post #9 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

Wow

The cheapest JVC with 4K retails at $7,999.99 so street price will be over 5K. In this economy, it's out of my price range.

I bet we will be seeing a bunch of used RS40's for sale in the six months.

Tom

Yep, I just looked again at the cine4home link which confirms that in non-16:9 ARs, e.g. 2:35:1, the "black bar" areas remain unlit! Nice.
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post #10 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarkleshark View Post

How do these new projectors display 4k when the display chips have not changed from 1920x 1080?

www.cine4home.de has an explanation

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post #11 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Yep, I just looked again at the cine4home link which confirms that in non-16:9 ARs, e.g. 2:35:1, the "black bar" areas remain unlit! Nice.

Your killing me Rich

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post #12 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 01:06 PM
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I am most interested in how the black bars are not lit? Is there some sort of internal masking? which would be great, but doubtful? I dont think that a "scaling" function would stop light from hitting the pannel, but I am no tech. Can someone confirm with JVC this function and if we are correctly interpeting the capability? if it does it somehow its a major plus for me!!!

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post #13 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Jim,

Yeah, you are right. I don't see how scaling would actually blank the screen light.

Looking again at the cine4home link I get the feeling I was misinterpreting: I think now they were describing how, when you do the first stage of zooming to a 16:9 size on your CIH screen, the side bars remain unlit (which of course they do with any projector). So I'm thinking I am likely wrong about this.

The thing is I actually saw the claim of "black bars remain unlit" from some other report on the JVCs, but I can't remember which one.
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post #14 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 01:38 PM
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Even if the 'black' bars remain unlit by the projector, room reflections will surely light them up, so masking will still be required.

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Everyone is forgetting the best feature, they will all do Vertical Stretch in 3D! I'm glad I didn't buy a lumagen, I know the lumagen has a great CMS but I would have specifically bought it for the VS feature.

-Sean
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post #16 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 03:25 PM
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Some believe this may be more of a kind of Panasonic "smoothscreen" feature to hide the pixel grid more-so than a way to do true 4k projection.

If that's the case, it may create a perceived sharpness hit to the image and cause more dithering artifacts.

Only time will tell.

True 4k displays at a decent price (with a proper 4k media source) will be long in coming if the trial and tribulations with Blu-ray and 1080p HD are any indication.

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post #17 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 03:56 PM
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wrt the room reflections, that is what I am getting a Black Diamond screen for, so all the better if the black bars are gone...

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post #18 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Some believe this may be more of a kind of Panasonic "smoothscreen" feature to hide the pixel grid more-so than a way to do true 4k projection.

If that's the case, it may create a perceived sharpness hit to the image and cause more dithering artifacts.

Only time will tell.

True 4k displays at a decent price (with a proper 4k media source) will be long in coming if the trial and tribulations with Blu-ray and 1080p HD are any indication.

Panasonic uses smoothscreen because of the low fill factor that is inherent to LCD. LCoS has no such issue, in fact the fill factor is incredibly high. I don't see JVC implementing e-shift for any other reason than to increase perceived resolution in order to maintain a competitive edge.

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post #19 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Some believe this may be more of a kind of Panasonic "smoothscreen" feature to hide the pixel grid more-so than a way to do true 4k projection.

If that's the case, it may create a perceived sharpness hit to the image and cause more dithering artifacts.

Only time will tell.

I think Madshi has done a good job on the original threads explaining why this should not be the case (reduction of sharpness). Though we all agree we won't know until we see it. (That said, some reports from the JVC demos mention the 4K mode if anything increases the impression of sharpness and clarity).
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post #20 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 05:31 PM
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It's an interesting innovation. I might be interpreting how it works wrongly, but if the pixel size doesn't change because they're just being shifted, then zooming for CIH means you'll still be increasing the same 1920 x 1080 pixels by 33% in both directions, so it's possible that it won't remove the need for an A lens - I was kinda hoping it was going to be genuine 4K res so we could use just a 2.35 (3840 x 1634) portion of the display and have no need for a lens or zooming.

If it means that we visually perceive the pixels as being as small as a genuine 4K res pj, then I think they've got a result.

It'll certainly be interesting to see how it works out in practice though.

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post #21 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post


If it means that we visually perceive the pixels as being as small as a genuine 4K res pj, then I think they've got a result.

Gary

Various AV-site writers who have reported on the demos say that pixels become for all intents and purposes invisible. Cine4home says there is just "no pixel structure" even if you step right up to the screen.

As I've said before, I've yet to find pixel visibility even remotely an issue with my JVC projector. But for those saying an A-lens is needed to reduce pixel visibility for closer viewing even with currently available JVC projectors, reports are indicating there will be no need with the new JVCs.
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post #22 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 06:27 PM
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JVC wouldn't have added vertical stretch for 3D if the 4K was good enough to be used for CIH.

"JVC’s 3D anamorphic feature combined with an optional anamorphic lens make it possible to enjoy 3D movies in the popular 2:35 scope format"

That quote is from JVC's press release, this feature is found on all 7 of the new PJs, which includes the 4Ks.

-Sean
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post #23 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 06:51 PM
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I'll be interested to see if the JVC's do offer a blanking option like the Panny. Movies such as Dark Knight and Tron Legacy need this option for zooming CIH. I find it very beneficial that I can mask the bottom of the screen so when the IMAX scenes open up, the picture isn't spilling over down below.
But I do applaud JVC and Sony for adding the lens memory to their feature set.
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post #24 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 230-SEAN View Post

JVC wouldn't have added vertical stretch for 3D if the 4K was good enough to be used for CIH.

"JVC's 3D anamorphic feature combined with an optional anamorphic lens make it possible to enjoy 3D movies in the popular 2:35 scope format"

That quote is from JVC's press release, this feature is found on all 7 of the new PJs, which includes the 4Ks.

-Sean

4K is only available in 2D - adding vertical stretch for 3D allows users to use an anamorphic lens with 3D to maximize brightness and pixel count for that content.

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post #25 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 07:01 PM
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It's intriguing, I'll give you that. The biggest issue I see for an "ideal" CIH setup without a lens is that they're limited to 1080p input. So you couldn't use something like a Lumagen to do your aspect ratio management, because if you do, you'll end up shrinking everything to fit in 1920x1080. I'm not terribly interested in lens memory.

Quote:
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It's an interesting innovation. I might be interpreting how it works wrongly, but if the pixel size doesn't change because they're just being shifted, then zooming for CIH means you'll still be increasing the same 1920 x 1080 pixels by 33% in both directions, so it's possible that it won't remove the need for an A lens - I was kinda hoping it was going to be genuine 4K res so we could use just a 2.35 (3840 x 1634) portion of the display and have no need for a lens or zooming.

I drew a postulation out in the other thread, but from the info given, it looks like the shifted pixels overlap the unshifted pixels, so the result of the sum of these is each pixel becomes 4. The trick is how do you uniquely address each of those 4 subpixels. Not sure how that would work, though you'd probably have to use some sort of

Quote:


If it means that we visually perceive the pixels as being as small as a genuine 4K res pj, then I think they've got a result.

Alan's pictures looked promising.

Though frankly the new Sim2 LED machines sound more interesting to me, though probably way too far out of my price range.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #26 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 230-SEAN View Post

Everyone is forgetting the best feature, they will all do Vertical Stretch in 3D! I'm glad I didn't buy a lumagen, I know the lumagen has a great CMS but I would have specifically bought it for the VS feature.

-Sean

Nice and a very big deal. Horizontal squeeze?
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post #27 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 07:11 PM
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Nice and a very big deal. Horizontal squeeze?

Hmm, not sure about that one. I'm guessing you like to leave your lens in place?

-Sean
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post #28 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 07:16 PM
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This is a very encouraging sign that companies believe there's a demand for out of the box CIH solutions. This makes 4 companies (Panasonic, Epson, JVC, Sony) and two projector technologies (LCD, LCOS) that have (or will soon release) products in the < $10k segment that offer lens memory. Seems like CIH is becoming more mainstream.

The only downer is that this solution won't be available to those that prefer DLP.
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post #29 of 201 Old 09-08-2011, 09:35 PM
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Well I am please to read that these scale for CIH in 3D. I am now looking forward to working JVCs stand at CEDIA next year.

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post #30 of 201 Old 09-09-2011, 01:55 AM
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At first glance the new 4k JVCs sounded incredible. I knew something may have been up with Onkyo's 4K feature. I'm not a fan of the Wobby having spent time with the 1080x960 dlp rptv that went back. But it may solve my problem with screendoor with 2x viewing. Mind you its only with credits and high apl scenes, but once you've experienced those scenes with a 4k panel, you know what it could look like.

While lens memory is a cool feature, its much too slow for me as I'm use to instantaneous aspect ratio changes. It must have shrink mode. Actually I could live with this if I had to, essentially having a 810x1920 projector. I would need to have blanking to coverup potential off screen content. In my case my center speaker would be illuminated.

As far using an A-Lens goes, the pros out way the cons, as long as 16x9 chips are used, regardless of how they are manipulated. When the 2.35 projectors hit the mainstream(less than $5K), the A-lens will be obsolete, and only then. A 33% brightness boost is the equivalent of going from 300 to 400 lumens or 600 to 800 or 1200 to 1600 lumens. I wouldn't call that a small difference. With 3d content every lumen counts. Not having 4k with 3d content doesn't help either. The msrp between the RS45 and the RS55 is $4500. That will buy you a nice lens. Even JVC is using the RS45 for 3D because of there admitted brightness advantage over the RS55,65 (they state 10% but if its like this year more like 20%). So with 2d or 3d content an RS45/A-lens is a better option than a 4k zoomed RS55 as far as light goes.

As far as the bulb being the same, I think its a non-issue. While my first bulb blew at 296hrs with 30-40% light loss prior to burnout, my new bulb with the "7" designation has only 5% loss at 350hrs. If I can get to 1500 hrs will only 20% loss I'll be happy.

As I stated months ago I thought the answer to improved 3D performance lied in improving the glasses. It's good to hear there has been an improvement there and that the new glasses are backwards compatible. Its good that JVC has added 3d stretch (still hoping for a Oppo 93 update), but I need HS as well and a working CMS is a plus. I think the Lumagen will still be my answer.

I think I have been spoil by the rapid increase in projectors in the mid 2000's with the increase from 480-720-1080p, increased lumen output, large contrast improvements especially with the introduction of the RS1 and DI's, and incredible advancements in processing/scaling. Auto zooming is a needed and useful feature but it just seems that the last few years projectors have little to look forward too. All gimmickry and cloak & dagger instead of groundbreaking progress.
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