50", 58" Vizio 21:9 edge-lit TVs in Febuary, 71" backlit one date TBA - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 45 Old 06-18-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

The problem is there is no native 21:9 content for these displays. Upconversion is simply that. trying upconverting a dvd and tell me you are getting an HD picture. It isn't going to happen. You are limited to your source material. SD is SD and no amount of upconversion is ever going to change that. 1080 x 1920 is all the resolution you will ever get from these displays. Up conversion is a gimmick and always has been and will never increase resolution of the source material.

Upconversion is a necessity to view lower resolution content on higher resolution displays. And upconverted definitely does look better than not, or are you arguing that DVD looks better on a 480p projector than a 1080p projector at the same viewing ratio....

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post #32 of 45 Old 06-18-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

The challenge being, 21:9 TVs are currently struggling to even get a foot hold (not that different from 20 years ago when Phillips introduced the 16:9 TV. It would not be until SONY jumped on the band wagon and the introduction of DVD some 5 years later that the public became aware of the need to change) and they already need a design revision because from what I understand, they may have 2560 x 1080 rez, but only except 1920 x 1080. They need to be able to accept and map 2560 x 1080 at 1:1. Then people would have a need for technology like Folded Space.
As a user of an Anamorphic projection system, Folded Space is perfect and exactly what we need.

True enough, but even 21:9 TVs will be able to benefit from the 33% additional resolution of anamorphic, just like an anamorphic projection system. That alone would make for a significantly better viewing experience than simply blowing up 1920 x 810 to 2560 x 1080. I am confident that the next generation of 21:9 Vizio TVs - if not the first - will accept 2560 x 1080 as a native resolution. We of course hope that the release of true 21:9 content along with the displays will help jump start this category.

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post #33 of 45 Old 06-18-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

We of course hope that the release of true 21:9 content along with the displays will help jump start this category.

So do all of us A-lens users smile.gif 21:9 is the next logical step regardless of what else the industry does.

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post #34 of 45 Old 06-24-2012, 11:23 AM
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Granted, the problem you run into is in terms of native resolution on the disc a film with a 2K master is still only going to have a max of 2048 pixels running horizontally. A film with a 4K master at 4096 pixels is going to have to be downconverted to 2048 to be put on a HD display. Since digital cinema standards were created about 7 years ago and 17:9 is the aspect ratio the whole issue is dead in the water. Ideally I would love to see a 17:9 display in 4K.

4K standards for broadcast TV will be finalzed before the years end. 4K bluray will hit in 2013 and 4K displays will be out by all manufacturers very soon with a few out currently. I really see this as the way to go.
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post #35 of 45 Old 06-24-2012, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

Granted, the problem you run into is in terms of native resolution on the disc a film with a 2K master is still only going to have a max of 2048 pixels running horizontally. A film with a 4K master at 4096 pixels is going to have to be downconverted to 2048 to be put on a HD display. Since digital cinema standards were created about 7 years ago and 17:9 is the aspect ratio the whole issue is dead in the water. Ideally I would love to see a 17:9 display in 4K.
4K standards for broadcast TV will be finalzed before the years end. 4K bluray will hit in 2013 and 4K displays will be out by all manufacturers very soon with a few out currently. I really see this as the way to go.

Which is fine if your happy with 16:9 or as you mentioned 17:9. What about Scope?
Personally I would love to see 5120 x 2160 which RED can do right now. What rez is THE HOBBIT being shot on with all those RED camers? Image capture is where change needs to start. Down rezing is easy if you have extra to throw away. 5120 / 2 = 2560 and 2160 / 2 = 1080. This is why I think the industry needs to think WIDER than current 16:9 and HDTV.

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post #36 of 45 Old 06-26-2012, 12:16 AM
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The problem you are running into is this.

Digital film standards

Standard Resolution DAR Pixels

Digital Cinema 2K 2048 × 858 2.39:1 1,757,184

Digital Cinema 2K 1998 × 1080 1.85:1 2,157,840

Academy 2K 1828 × 1332 1.37:1 2,434,896

Digital Cinema 4K 4096 × 1714 2.39:1 7,020,544

Digital cinema 4K 3996 × 2160 1.85:1 8,631,360

Academy 4K 3656 × 2664 1.37:1 9,739,584

For a 1080p display 2048 pixels is the max you are ever going to get since the digital scanning of film is done at a fixed 17:9 aspect ratio.
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post #37 of 45 Old 06-26-2012, 04:42 AM
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So what? Why does everyone get so hung up on matching source pixels to display pixels? This has almost never been reality. I don't remember all these "complaints" about 720p and 1080p sets when all we had was 720x480i DVD to watch.....

Today we've got much better sources, with much better scaling algorithms and much better displays, so what if the source doesn't match the display resolution.

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post #38 of 45 Old 06-26-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

... they may have 2560 x 1080 rez, but only except 1920 x 1080. They need to be able to accept and map 2560 x 1080 at 1:1. Then people would have a need for technology like Folded Space.
As a user of an Anamorphic projection system, Folded Space is perfect and exactly what we need.

This what we are currently working on with the CEA 861 standard, which defines the video modes on the HDMI interface. The next version of the specification will have standardized definitions for 2560x1080p and 1680x720p resolutions, as well as indicators for anamorphic 720p and 1080p content. Hopefully, the support for these new resolutions will make it into at least these 21:9 TVs, sooner rather than later. They would also be a great addition for anamorphic projectors, allowing automated switching of the lens.
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post #39 of 45 Old 06-26-2012, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

The problem is there is no native 21:9 content for these displays. Upconversion is simply that. trying upconverting a dvd and tell me you are getting an HD picture. It isn't going to happen. You are limited to your source material. SD is SD and no amount of upconversion is ever going to change that. 1080 x 1920 is all the resolution you will ever get from these displays. Up conversion is a gimmick and always has been and will never increase resolution of the source material.

There is no question that native 2560 x 1080 looks better than up-converted 2560 x 1080. BUT we have to deal with what is avaiable. And I am confident that an up-converted BD signal to 2560 x 1080, if not better it will at least look as good as the native 1920 x 800. Have you seen those 4K displays upconverting BD? They look stunning. A good up-converter goes a long way.

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post #40 of 45 Old 06-27-2012, 09:32 AM
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I have one of the sets. We have 2 PS3s and 2 copies of Star Wars on Blu Ray. I have a 60" Elite LED and a 50" Plasma LG. The Elite blew away the VIZIO, so I decided to compare it with the LG. I think the image looks better on the VIZIO hands down, and others agreed. You can tell it is being upconverted. However this is similar to the 4K Sony Projector I have seen. If you're upconverting a 480P DVD to 1080P it looks better than even a top of the line DVD player (and I'm talking Meridian here not junk) displaying 480P if you have it going to a well calibrated monitor.

The question really is will these sets sell?

I hope for Panamorph/Folded Space's sake they do sell. Just enough to warrant the next generation sets and hopefully enough to spark Sony into thinking they can make money off a 7X3 set (21X9 is just bad math) easier than making money off 4K at reasonable prices. If Sony is on board, then I foresee Blu Ray getting anamorphic added soon.

Anamorphic BDs will spark certain catalog titles to be resold too. We know how companies love to double dip.
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post #41 of 45 Old 06-27-2012, 09:35 AM
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Also, 4k doesn't mean we can't have natural aspect ratio of 7X3! It's just resolution. We can have 1.78:1 4k models, and 7X3 4k models.
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post #42 of 45 Old 06-27-2012, 11:21 PM
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Once again with 21:9 4K the natural resolution will be 2160 x 5136 roughly. There is no available content to give you 5136 pixels of horizontal resolution.

4K digital cinema is fixed in a 17:9 aspect ratio.


Digital film standards

Standard Resolution DAR Pixels

Digital Cinema 4K 4096 × 1714 2.39:1 7,020,544

Digital cinema 4K 3996 × 2160 1.85:1 8,631,360

Academy 4K 3656 × 2664 1.37:1 9,739,584

For a 2160p display or 4K (Quad HD) 4096 pixels is the max you are ever going to get since the digital scanning of film is done at a fixed 17:9 aspect ratio.

4K broadcast standards will be finalized this year so we will know if a 21:9 standard is adopted. For movie lovers it will always lead to upconversion due to the digital cinema standards. Anything wider than a 17:9 aspect ratio is going to cause this problem.





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post #43 of 45 Old 06-28-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

Once again with 21:9 4K the natural resolution will be 2160 x 5136 roughly. There is no available content to give you 5136 pixels of horizontal resolution.
4K digital cinema is fixed in a 17:9 aspect ratio.
Digital film standards
Standard Resolution DAR Pixels
Digital Cinema 4K 4096 × 1714 2.39:1 7,020,544
Digital cinema 4K 3996 × 2160 1.85:1 8,631,360
Academy 4K 3656 × 2664 1.37:1 9,739,584
For a 2160p display or 4K (Quad HD) 4096 pixels is the max you are ever going to get since the digital scanning of film is done at a fixed 17:9 aspect ratio.
4K broadcast standards will be finalized this year so we will know if a 21:9 standard is adopted. For movie lovers it will always lead to upconversion due to the digital cinema standards. Anything wider than a 17:9 aspect ratio is going to cause this problem.
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This is all correct. The resolution of any release of a film, whether we are speaking theatrically or to home video, is always going to be limited to the resolution of the source master. Right now films are scanned and archived at exactly the resolutions listed by PRO-630HD above (for 4K, anyway).

One of the things I come up against when discussing the Folded Space processing is that people assume that the Hollywood source masters have all kinds of unlimited resolution that we can pull from to get a 2560 x 1080 product. Now that more and more films are being scanned in and shot at 4K, this is close to becoming true. However, as PRO-630HD pointed out, 2K Digital Cinema is limited to these numbers:

Digital Cinema 2K 2048 × 858 2.39:1 1,757,184

Digital Cinema 2K 1998 × 1080 1.85:1 2,157,840

Academy 2K 1828 × 1332 1.37:1 2,434,896

So, based on a 2K scan of a 2.35:1 / 2.39:1 movie shot on Super 35, for example, the most resolution we can hope to pull from a 2K master is 2048 x 858. Not a lot of advantage to issuing the film at 2560 x 1080, since there is no additional picture detail to be had. However, if the film was shot anamorphically, the actual archive master will be scanned in at the Academy ratio and at 1828 x 1332. That means we have plenty of vertical resolution available to justify a 2560 x 1080 release of the film. Of course, there is no additional horizontal resolution to be had (since we just topped out at 1828 horizontal), but we have tons of additional vertical resolution (we can pull from the 1332 vertical resolution of the master to get full 1080 on the Blu-ray).

Now that 4K masters are becoming standard, it is easy for us to pull from any of the 4K masters to get true 2560 x 1080:

Digital Cinema 4K 4096 × 1714 2.39:1 7,020,544

Digital cinema 4K 3996 × 2160 1.85:1 8,631,360

Academy 4K 3656 × 2664 1.37:1 9,739,584

No matter which of the above formats the film is scanned in at, we have plenty of resolution for us to create a true 2560 x 1080 master with real and very visible increased resolution over standard letterboxed 1920 x 810 Blu-ray. I can't say which studio we are currently working with, but we have created a MFE demo Blu-ray created from a 4K scan of film elements, and the MFE encoded / decoded version clearly has more real picture detail than upscaled Blu-ray on the same display.

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post #44 of 45 Old 06-29-2012, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

No matter which of the above formats the film is scanned in at, we have plenty of resolution for us to create a true 2560 x 1080 master with real and very visible increased resolution over standard letterboxed 1920 x 810 Blu-ray. I can't say which studio we are currently working with, but we have created a MFE demo Blu-ray created from a 4K scan of film elements, and the MFE encoded / decoded version clearly has more real picture detail than upscaled Blu-ray on the same display.

This is some of the best news I have read all week! When does this demo disc become available?

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post #45 of 45 Old 06-29-2012, 05:33 PM
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We are working on a "generic" demo disc that should show the same benefits, derived from 4K footage shot with a RED camera. The studio footage we will not be able to share due to licensing and confidentiality agreements.

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